Open order slots msrp

[brucewinter]

Someone help me out. How can this nsx be in high demand, when open order slots are not filled? Are we fooling ourselves about the true demand, and excessive pricing premiums on cars.com?

See below on another thread.


http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...guration-slot-available-for-9-2-configuration

 

[MasterNSXTech]

Some parts of the country have more demand for two seater sports cars than others. Some parts of the country have more people with a quarter mil to blow on a car than others. I'd hazard a guess that there's more Ferraris registered in just Orange County than there is in the entire state of Michigan. Maybe even add another neighboring state or two in combined and it still isn't as much. I've heard of dealers that have wait lists that won't be filled for 3 or 4 years.

 

[Stewart W]

Someone help me out. How can this nsx be in high demand, when open order slots are not filled? Are we fooling ourselves about the true demand, and excessive pricing premiums on cars.com?

See below on another thread.


http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...guration-slot-available-for-9-2-configuration

------------
Fact is Acura really missed numerous opportunities that one would expect to be inclusive in an intelligent marketing campaign . Why? This would be speculation and noone will ever fully understand the reasoning imho. The lack of client communications, news releases , test results, updates on corporate NSX website , NSX specialists being informed etc..all will effect the early buy-in especially when dealers are also holding onto cars for private collections or to drive the pricing up for their respective stores' benefits...Point is..it is all speculation and the little we know cannot be applied to assess market values. There are always those that pay to play early on and others that are waiting to actually see the car and learn more (comparatively) about what the car has to offer.In my experience , the initial dealer market adjustments do not reflect the longer term value and /or interest in the vehicle.
I paid MSRP for my MP4, Ford GT, Acura NSX, BMW I8 to name a few when others paid 10s of thousands in premiums ..This was in no way a market value indicator. Most cars will depreciate more than we would all like in the early years. My MP4 tanked when McLaren had an early release of the 570...The only "real control" is the supply and demand equation. If the cars in the dealers hands are held back then demand will increase as the first and 2nd waves are filled. I would hope a minimum of 4-6 months would be the standard leadtime once the first 200 plus cars are sold. If production remains 4-5 per day ...this is not many cars..Most exotics far exceed these numbers ..1000-1500 cars per year is very very limited production. If people love the car and the numbers are held to a ltd production level..the demand will stand imho. For now, it is all pure speculation. Lets see what happens when cars hit the streets in the most popular regions for sports cars in america. ie: southern california , Miami etc...
If people elect to own the NSX over the R8, 570, turbo Careras etc..I dont foresee NSX being available at dealers after the first car...Build to order will be the formula going forward,, If they get their marketing department off their asses and start marketing the car thru exclusive targeted campaigns ..the demand should be sustainable for several years imho. If marketing continues to lag..well ....let's hope for the best!
Just my 2 cents.

 

[chrisn]

We're in a weird lull in this car's "launch"-- they first ~300 cars have been sold to people who have probably had their eye in the car for years. And yet deliveries are slow and no marketing and still no instrumented magazine reviews of production cars. Many dealers have long waiting lists, but it's not surprising at all that a few of the NSX dealers will have open slots right now.

I would not call the car a failure unless the "unsold slots" in smaller markets are NOT immediately reallocated and filled by dealers with waiting lists.

It's also not surprising that a Honda/Acura dealer owner would choose to NOT deal with the hassle of auctioning the car and just wants to sell at MSRP. I assume a well-optioned one is a decent payday compared to a base MDX for a dealer (anyone know the dealer margin?). And if the immediately order/sell their allocation, they has a better chance to sell another one and cover the upfront cost of NSX certification.

In other words, it is just too soon to say. If there weren't a 25 year gap in models, they'd have an easier time. The best customer of any "N+1" version of a product if the guy who bought a new Version "N" six years ago. When you stopped selling the "N-1" version 12 years ago, 90% of your buyers have moved on. No one in the habit of buying a $100K+ new car every few years is going to wait for you. Most (virtually all?) of the target customers of the NSX 2.0 do NOT *currently* own an NSX. That is what makes this tough. They need to re-find their audience / fanbase.

 

[Bricks and Bio]

I am not worried about the car selling.

I totally agree that the marketing department is working against the company.

In line with the input of MasterNSXTech, there is huge capacity for toys in toy focused towns like LA, Miami, Dallas, Houston NY, NJ DC/Virginia. This car will also be big in towns with over educated people like Boston, SF, Seattle, Chicago. I think it will also do well in it's home state of Ohio (I learned a long time ago that folks in the Midwest prefer a car over a shower in their home. If you have a shower and not car, you are ready to go out but can't. If you have a car, you can go out and take a shower somewhere else). Michigan, being the seat of the auto industry has a huge car culture and the car will sell there too.

I also see a wildcard toward success that a some women will buy the new NSX. There is nothing unfriendly/intimidating about the car that would steer them away from it.

Much of the issue also falls on the dealerships. I doubt many can even manage their interested customer list. For example, I spoke with the dealer Nosirrhax purchased his car formal over a year ago. I was assured that once they had some info, they would be back in touch, guess what, that never happened. I think only 3 of 10+ dealers I spoke with in 2015 reached out to follow up.

 

[ciscokid]

Who has open slots available? Im ready to spec and pay MSRP, :wink:.

 

[brucewinter]

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...guration-slot-available-for-9-2-configuration

 

[Bricks and Bio]

chrisn, I believe I read that invoice is about $10K below msrp. With cars getting $30K in CF added, let's say the dealer cut a a third of that so a $200K plus MSRP car puts about $20K in the dealer's pocket. So at least 9 loaded cars to recoup their investment.

 

[MasterNSXTech]

Lol. You think options have that much margin in them? There's only a couple thousand difference between a base car and one load loaded with CF and Andaro paint.

 

[chrisn]

If you have a shower and not car, you are ready to go out but can't. If you have a car, you can go out and take a shower somewhere else

Where? At her house?

- - - Updated - - -

Lol. You think options have that much margin in them? There's only a couple thousand difference between a base car and one load loaded with CF and Andaro paint.

Interesting. I'm sure there is a TON of profit margin "end to end," I'm surprised Acura doesn't cut in the dealers for more of this juice--- might as well have them push carbon bits on their customers (or whatever).

As I've said before, I have no moral problem with dealers buying on spec and hoping to sell at markups. I have tried very hard to avoid that game, but I admit to succumbing to temptation a couple of times in the past.

 

[Bricks and Bio]

MasterNSXTech

Thanks for the info

Edmunds only has the spread between invoice and MSRP on the base car (just above $10K before the carboceramic brakes). I am struggling to believe that Acura only provides the dealer a 5% cut of $40K in options.

 

[fastaussie]

Someone help me out. How can this nsx be in high demand, when open order slots are not filled? Are we fooling ourselves about the true demand, and excessive pricing premiums on cars.com?

i would say you're right, and that the NSX is not in as high demand as some would like it to be.

people who buy $200,000 sports cars can also spring for a minor cross country shipping charge of $2000. if someone was absolutely dying to have a new NSX and found an open slot available, it'd be gone in minutes. there seem to be a lot of slots and cars still available. that only means one thing...

 

[kendallj]

i would say you're right, and that the NSX is not in as high demand as some would like it to be.

people who buy $200,000 sports cars can also spring for a minor cross country shipping charge of $2000. if someone was absolutely dying to have a new NSX and found an open slot available, it'd be gone in minutes. there seem to be a lot of slots and cars still available. that only means one thing...

I could be wrong, but I suspect that many of those who put down deposits years ago, were expecting a 'value supercar' as the first version was. I've read of the UK having a two to three year waiting list based on these early deposits, but I'm wondering now that the real-world price has surfaced, how many have got cold feet and requested a refund of their initial deposits.

The other big bogey for Honda must be the current very real threat of global recession. The US's 18 Trillion Federal debt is mind boggling, and ditto for most western democracy's - it's a house of cards set to collapse at any time. Recent news of Germany's Deutsch Bank being unable to redeem a gold deposit contract is ominous and I expect we are about to experience a meltdown that will pale 2008 into insignificance. If so, any early attempts of Acura dealers to cream the MSRP are going to disappear overnight, as will sales internationally. Look out for the bargain repo sales.

 

[fastaussie]

honestly Ken, i just don't see a Honda having a 2 year wait list...

 

[MasterNSXTech]

honestly Ken, i just don't see a Honda having a 2 year wait list...

Over 7000 people were willing to plunk down well over $400k (probably a cool half mil for most OTD) for a Ford. Yes a Ford with some fantastic pedigree. But a Ford nonetheless. So why can't this Honda have such a high demand?

- - - Updated - - -

Interesting. I'm sure there is a TON of profit margin "end to end," I'm surprised Acura doesn't cut in the dealers for more of this juice--- might as well have them push carbon bits on their customers (or whatever).

As I've said before, I have no moral problem with dealers buying on spec and hoping to sell at markups. I have tried very hard to avoid that game, but I admit to succumbing to temptation a couple of times in the past.

When you factor in the R&D, plus the fact they built a whole new factory for the car? I'd be surprised if Honda can even break even in this car's life cycle. Of course what they "sell" to the dealer for is less than the MSRP because if the dealers can't make any money with it, then they wouldn't even bother with being a dealer for the car.

But typically, halo cars like this new NSX aren't built to make money for Honda. The GT (the 2005-06) was if you can believe it...a loss leader for Ford. GM barely makes a profit with the Corvette even with as many as they build.

Where the payoff is with a halo car is that technology developed for it eventually trickle down into the other carlines to make them better. Kids with posters of supercars on their walls builds brand loyalty. Love that new Ford GT but you'll never be able to have one? Well just get a Mustang instead. It's affordable, "and at least it's a Ford."

 

[fastaussie]

But typically, halo cars like this new NSX aren't built to make money for Honda. The GT (the 2005-06) was if you can believe it...a loss leader for Ford. GM barely makes a profit with the Corvette even with as many as they build.

Where the payoff is with a halo car is that technology developed for it eventually trickle down into the other carlines to make them better. Kids with posters of supercars on their walls builds brand loyalty. Love that new Ford GT but you'll never be able to have one? Well just get a Mustang instead. It's affordable, "and at least it's a Ford."

this is absolutely true. hence the LFA and many others, they are showcases of a company's engineering and manufacturing prowess.

Over 7000 people were willing to plunk down well over $400k (probably a cool half mil for most OTD) for a Ford. Yes a Ford with some fantastic pedigree. But a Ford nonetheless. So why can't this Honda have such a high demand?

you tell me? but so far it doesn't appear to be the case at half the price of the Ford...

 

[JD Cross]

Over 7000 people were willing to plunk down well over $400k (probably a cool half mil for most OTD) for a Ford. Yes a Ford with some fantastic pedigree. But a Ford nonetheless. So why can't this Honda have such a high demand?

For one thing Ford is only making 400 of them.
And you have to fill in a corporate application to get on the waitlist.
Preference is given to previous Ford GT owners and other Ford owners before anyone else.
Very sophisticated marketing plan.

I don't believe Honda has a large order file for the NSX.
They've had three order "lock" events and I'm guessing they've taken 350-400 orders in total.
We're learning that most of the orders are for dealers ( 250+) of the 350-400.
And they aren't sales, they're transfers of working capital from Honda to the dealer where the cars remain unsold.

You've got a dealer offering a third "locked" position on Prime at MSRP and who hasn't got any takers.
The dealer rep tells us he ended up putting in a fake order to keep the allocation
I'd say there's an issue.
And 20 or so cars on Cars.com for weeks and not selling isn't suggesting a marketplace that's snapping up every NSX available.

I would not be surprised if the orders sold through a dealership to a customer don't get shipped more quickly than expected.
Honda should be waking up to the fact that all they're doing with shipments to dealers that don't have an end customer attached to them is just adding to the unsold NSX inventory.

 

[nosirrahx]

For one thing Ford is only making 400 of them.

From what I understand that is going to 800.

 

[RPM217]

From what I understand that is going to 800.

More like 1,000. 4 years commitment, and 250 per year

 

[JD Cross]

More like 1,000. 4 years commitment, and 250 per year

Good for Ford and the GT.
250 a year is not many and they'll be marketed professionally.
An instant classic

 

[MasterNSXTech]

I don't believe Honda has a large order file for the NSX.
They've had three order "lock" events and I'm guessing they've taken 350-400 orders in total.
We're learning that most of the orders are for dealers ( 250+) of the 350-400.
And they aren't sales, they're transfers of working capital from Honda to the dealer where the cars remain unsold.

You've got a dealer offering a third "locked" position on Prime at MSRP and who hasn't got any takers.
The dealer rep tells us he ended up putting in a fake order to keep the allocation
I'd say there's an issue.
And 20 or so cars on Cars.com for weeks and not selling isn't suggesting a marketplace that's snapping up every NSX available.

Like I said, demand for the cars is higher in some areas over others. I personally know of dealers that are wait listed with well over a dozen deposits. And I also know of dealers that had to just spec order a car because they had nobody interested in owning the car other than the dealer principle.

The reason you see inventory out there that's open to buy is because people got cold feet and walked away from their deal. They ordered the car and now when it's time to put up or shut up, they've folded. Either the dealer wants too much markup and/or the car is just too much of a financial commitment for them. Or the car was a "coverage unit" that they didn't want to just sell to the first customer on the wait list so it was dealer's choice on the spec. Whatever the case is, all these open to buy cars are speced the way they are and it is what it is. But the car is being marketed as "built to order." If you just have to have a car now, then you pick from what's available. But the people who are wait listed are still holding because they want to spec the car the way they want it, not the way someone else chose. And they're still willing to wait...also with the hopes of not having to pay markup in a year or two when it's finally their turn to order a car.

 

[goldNSX]

You've got a dealer offering a third "locked" position on Prime at MSRP and who hasn't got any takers.
The dealer rep tells us he ended up putting in a fake order to keep the allocation
I'd say there's an issue.
And 20 or so cars on Cars.com for weeks and not selling isn't suggesting a marketplace that's snapping up every NSX available.

This reminds me of my student time: perfect price discrimination. Every NSX is sold to someone who reveals his highest amount willing to pay for it. Today's marketing and communication makes this possible.

Here's the story of the Civic Type R in Europe (a car you don't get over the pond):
- marketing hype with Nürburgring lap time record, ok, well done
- after half a year they announced: the demand it so high that we have to raise the MSRP by 2%, done
- annoucement no .2: it's sold out, no more new cars. This turned out to be different than what customers would interpret. Yes, you can't order one from the factory but you can decide between 75 near to new or completely new one, in Switzerland alone. Some of them with 0 miles at 10% off MSRP.
- Next year will be a massacre: we get the new Civic (you already have) and the Type R maybe in 2018.
I like the car as a daily beater but am waiting due to above reasons.

 

[Hothonda]

NSX friends in the Pacific NW who were "hot to trot" (including me) on the all
new NSX, felt there were other options out there after they found out it was
going to be a $180-$200K Acura v one w/a $50K less price tag.

When things started getting finalized for the NSX I enquired at the dealer where I'd
done 25 years worth of many Acuras - I was met with indifference.

 

[RSO 34]

It just feels like 1991 all over again but with even worse "results". I was first in line in '91 and when the car came in I was told the minimum I had to offer over MSRP was an AMV of $30,400. I offered MSRP plus $5k cash deal and was laughed at. I drove away and went up the road to a Mercedes dealer and bought an S Class that weekend.

The Acura dealer called me back 6 months later and asked if I still was interested in it for MSRP. At least then they were selling for quite a bit over MSRP with at least one in NY going for around $120k before the market adjusted to the conditions.

Now it seems that only the dealers have cars, speced by the dealers and being listed for way over MSRP despite the fact that their are customers with real deposits waiting for their deliveries. I don't see the dealer cars moving at their price points.

I do see "interesting" swaps with one being sold by a Chevy dealership in Georgia and #19 local to me first being offered at +$50k, then they reached out to the club and offered +$25k before quickly coming down to MSRP for the club only to have it sold to a specialty sports car dealer nearby who listed it, couldn't find a buyer and is now trying out fleabay.

All this market pricing seems to be a major fail and cars sit around while buyers seem content to watch it all implode and snap up inventory at more reasonable price points. Even when a Prime member offers a slot at MSRP he is not getting any takers and had to spec it himself.

 

[JD Cross]

The reason you see inventory out there that's open to buy is because people got cold feet and walked away from their deal. They ordered the car and now when it's time to put up or shut up, they've folded. Either the dealer wants too much markup and/or the car is just too much of a financial commitment for them. Or the car was a "coverage unit" that they didn't want to just sell to the first customer on the wait list so it was dealer's choice on the spec.

Regardless of the reason for cars being unsold, the end result is the same - unsold inventory.
At the launch of a new car demand generally comes from two sources , those who want the car, and those who want the car and to be first on their block.
Once the initial flurry dies off the remaining demand is for those who want the car regardless of when it arrives.

Let's look at competitors sales Aug YTD 2016
NSX - 45
Ferrari -all models 1600
Lamborghini -all models 726
Audi R8 - 446
Porsche 911 -all models 6582
GT-R 455
Total 10309
If we eliminate regular 911's and non 458/488 Ferrari's perhaps we're down to 650 Porsche's and 800 Ferrari's. (Hot Honda will know these numbers better than I)

So the total NSX competitive market segment may be about 3122 units in 8 months or say about 4700-4800 annually.
Honda is attempting to add 700-800 cars to this market segment.
It doesn't sound like many but it appears to be a significant volume in a very small market segment.

I would have thought Honda would first and foremost want firm sales to customers (not dealers) through the first model year to ensure a successful launch of a new halo car.
No unsold inventory, exclusive car, hard to find etc. etc.
That might mean 750-850 firm sales to allow for inevitable cancellations etc.

If we use your number of 90 cars made YTD, then between Honda and their dealerships they've got around 25 +/- unsold or over 25 % of production so far.
Don't think the dealerships will get the premium they're asking for and I hope won't be discounting unsold cars.
The only saving grace so far has been below-proforma factory production.

If Honda is serious about not having unsold NSX's then I think they need to ship only cars sold to an end customer in North America, then divert production to Europe and Japan.
If they don't take action soon they'll be looking at a plant curtailment over the winter