Which would you choose, and why?
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Russ
'91 black/black
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Russ
'91 black/black
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Pick one: short gears+4.23 R&P or I/H/E?
- Thread starter Russ
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A while back, Bob Butler published an analysis in NSX Driver modeling various combos of stock gears, short gears, R&Ps, or just a 20 HP increase (about what you'd get with I/H/E). You'd be wise to review that.
Personally, I'd choose the I/H/E because you'd get real power gains. Besides, other than at the stoplight GP, the 1-2 shift really isn't that important...
Personally, I'd choose the I/H/E because you'd get real power gains. Besides, other than at the stoplight GP, the 1-2 shift really isn't that important...
Actually, it showed it with a 15 hp increase. And here's what it showed:
0-60
Stock '91-94 NSX: 5.31
Stock '91-94 with short gears and 4.23: 4.96
Stock '91-94 with 15 more hp: 5.00
0-80
Stock '91-94 NSX: 7.98
Stock '91-94 with short gears and 4.23: 7.98
Stock '91-94 with 15 more hp: 7.50
0-100
Stock '91-94 NSX: 12.30
Stock '91-94 with short gears and 4.23: 12.04
Stock '91-94 with 15 more hp: 11.52
0-150
Stock '91-94 NSX: 37.78
Stock '91-94 with short gears and 4.23: 39.82
Stock '91-94 with 15 more hp: 33.25
1/4 mile
Stock '91-94 NSX: 13.67
Stock '91-94 with short gears and 4.23: 13.48
Stock '91-94 with 15 more hp: 13.35
Russ,
I just had short gears and 4.23 R&P (new dual-disc clutch, stock flywheel and pressure plate too) installed in my 92.
I do have the stock intake and exhaust manifolds. From what I've read and heard the intake mods provide no real performance increase and only change the sound. Likewise for the muffler. Of course, that can be cool too.
Headers on a pre-97 do make somewhat of a measureable difference, particularly if you plan to go to a forced induction system at a later date.
When it comes to short gears and the R&P change, I don't think numbers tell the whole story. Bob Butler's numbers, as pointed out by Ken, are valid and are no doubt on the money, but now having done the short gears and the 4.23, I believe there's another aspect to the change.
The short gear change is absolutely wonderful. It might not make that much difference on the track, where you're rarely make the 1-2 shift, but for the street and everyday driving, it's such a NICE change. That big BOG that used to occur when making the 1-2 shift is gone. I can best describe it as if now feels like the wide gears were a manufacturing defect. It makes around town driving so much more enjoyable. Highly recommended.
The 4.23 R&P change was a little more subtle but still very nice. The car "feels" lighter. It accelerates noticeably faster. It feels faster, and if you refer to Bob's numbers, it of course is faster under most conditions.
I would add to this... that like the short gears, for around town driving, I suspect this "feeling" is more real and pronounced. A lower gear obviously helps a lot when you're pulling away from a stop.
In driving my NSX with the stock R&P, I typically found myself wanting to drive in a lower gear in order to keep the revs a bit higher. As you know the car is more fun to drive when the engine is above 4K RPM.
The 4.23 simply makes it a bit easier to do this. I would imagine the 4.55 would be even more so, although I wanted to go with the 4.23 because it's a factory part and because some people have reported gear noise and I was concerned the ratio would be a bit too low for highway driving.
I only occassionally take my car onto the track, so for me "how it feels" on the street and highway is an important factor in addition to the hard numbers.
And for me, I really like how both of these changes feel in day-to-day driving on the street and the open road.
Hope this helps.
Jim
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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
Looking for 76-79 Honda Accords
I just had short gears and 4.23 R&P (new dual-disc clutch, stock flywheel and pressure plate too) installed in my 92.
I do have the stock intake and exhaust manifolds. From what I've read and heard the intake mods provide no real performance increase and only change the sound. Likewise for the muffler. Of course, that can be cool too.
Headers on a pre-97 do make somewhat of a measureable difference, particularly if you plan to go to a forced induction system at a later date.
When it comes to short gears and the R&P change, I don't think numbers tell the whole story. Bob Butler's numbers, as pointed out by Ken, are valid and are no doubt on the money, but now having done the short gears and the 4.23, I believe there's another aspect to the change.
The short gear change is absolutely wonderful. It might not make that much difference on the track, where you're rarely make the 1-2 shift, but for the street and everyday driving, it's such a NICE change. That big BOG that used to occur when making the 1-2 shift is gone. I can best describe it as if now feels like the wide gears were a manufacturing defect. It makes around town driving so much more enjoyable. Highly recommended.
The 4.23 R&P change was a little more subtle but still very nice. The car "feels" lighter. It accelerates noticeably faster. It feels faster, and if you refer to Bob's numbers, it of course is faster under most conditions.
I would add to this... that like the short gears, for around town driving, I suspect this "feeling" is more real and pronounced. A lower gear obviously helps a lot when you're pulling away from a stop.
In driving my NSX with the stock R&P, I typically found myself wanting to drive in a lower gear in order to keep the revs a bit higher. As you know the car is more fun to drive when the engine is above 4K RPM.
The 4.23 simply makes it a bit easier to do this. I would imagine the 4.55 would be even more so, although I wanted to go with the 4.23 because it's a factory part and because some people have reported gear noise and I was concerned the ratio would be a bit too low for highway driving.
I only occassionally take my car onto the track, so for me "how it feels" on the street and highway is an important factor in addition to the hard numbers.
And for me, I really like how both of these changes feel in day-to-day driving on the street and the open road.
Hope this helps.
Jim
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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
Looking for 76-79 Honda Accords
Ummm... not by much. Keep in mind that there is the perception that the car accelerates faster, because it DOES - but only as long as it's within a given gear. For example, the car will accelerate faster in second gear - but it will reach redline quicker, and after that point, it accelerates SLOWER because it's in third gear and the stock R&P is still in second gear.
Here are more numbers from Bob, showing the effect of the short gears separate from those of the 4.23 R&P:
0-60
Stock '91-94 NSX: 5.31
Stock '91-94 with short gears: 5.09
Stock '91-94 with 4.23: 5.18
Stock '91-94 with short gears and 4.23: 4.96
Stock '91-94 with 15 more hp: 5.00
0-80
Stock '91-94 NSX: 7.98
Stock '91-94 with short gears: 8.10
Stock '91-94 with 4.23: 8.12
Stock '91-94 with short gears and 4.23: 7.98
Stock '91-94 with 15 more hp: 7.50
0-100
Stock '91-94 NSX: 12.30
Stock '91-94 with short gears: 11.83
Stock '91-94 with 4.23: 12.08
Stock '91-94 with short gears and 4.23: 12.04
Stock '91-94 with 15 more hp: 11.52
0-150
Stock '91-94 NSX: 37.78
Stock '91-94 with short gears: 41.06
Stock '91-94 with 4.23: 38.26
Stock '91-94 with short gears and 4.23: 39.82
Stock '91-94 with 15 more hp: 33.25
1/4 mile
Stock '91-94 NSX: 13.67
Stock '91-94 with short gears: 13.56
Stock '91-94 with 4.23: 13.57
Stock '91-94 with short gears and 4.23: 13.48
Stock '91-94 with 15 more hp: 13.35
Bottom line is that the changes in gearing FEEL like they improve acceleration more than they actually do - and that increasing power (or reducing weight) is likely to have a greater ACTUAL improvement.
- Joined
- 7 February 2001
- Messages
- 1,452
I did both at the same time and increased my 1/4 mile time by .5 I too would say that the gear change makes the car not only feel stronger, but more enjoyable to drive. When I first bought my car I found myself waiting for what seemed like eternity to shift. Something just didnt feel right. Now my car feels quick and spirited. I enjoy the PERCEPTION,as Ken calls it, much better and I think if Ken drove my car he would like it better too.
I would go with gears. It is fun with the 1-2-3 upshift. Dan
I think if I drove your car I would like the spray.
As I said, I don't take my car to the track very often. I've never taken my car to the drag strip and I've never timed my 0-60 runs.
If the short gears and 4.23 actually made the car slower, I suppose wouldn't have made the change. But I think I would have still done the short gears because of that boggy 1-2 annoying shift.
However, even if the change produced no measurable timed improvement, I would still recommend the change, precisely because of the perceived difference.
We're all accustomed to looking at and reviewing specs when evaluating cars. The NSX is surely one vehicle that transcends the numbers. For example, there are many here that have compared the NSX to the C5 and other sports cars that have similar performance numbers.
The discussion usually heads in the direction that although the performance specs might be very similar, the NSX has that certain something, that balance, that look, that whatever....that is more than the numbers would speak to.
"My" decision to buy an NSX didn't hinge on it's ability to go 13.48 vs 13.67 in the 1/4 mile. I knew the car was quick enough and the other things such as that all-around "balance" and "feel" and Honda quality sold me.
Therefore, it is through that prism that I'm personally evaluating the short gears and the 4.23 change.
For me, it makes the car that much more enjoyable. The car "feels" better. The car is faster. Perhaps it's not a huge improvement but it's significant to me in how the car feels and drives during the kind of driving that I do most often. And that is around town, windy back country roads, interstate highways, etc.
Let me put this another way. If I ordered a NSX from the factory and had the choice of stock gearing or the short gears/4.23, there would be no choice at all.
-Jim
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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
Looking for 76-79 Honda Accords
If the short gears and 4.23 actually made the car slower, I suppose wouldn't have made the change. But I think I would have still done the short gears because of that boggy 1-2 annoying shift.
However, even if the change produced no measurable timed improvement, I would still recommend the change, precisely because of the perceived difference.
We're all accustomed to looking at and reviewing specs when evaluating cars. The NSX is surely one vehicle that transcends the numbers. For example, there are many here that have compared the NSX to the C5 and other sports cars that have similar performance numbers.
The discussion usually heads in the direction that although the performance specs might be very similar, the NSX has that certain something, that balance, that look, that whatever....that is more than the numbers would speak to.
"My" decision to buy an NSX didn't hinge on it's ability to go 13.48 vs 13.67 in the 1/4 mile. I knew the car was quick enough and the other things such as that all-around "balance" and "feel" and Honda quality sold me.
Therefore, it is through that prism that I'm personally evaluating the short gears and the 4.23 change.
For me, it makes the car that much more enjoyable. The car "feels" better. The car is faster. Perhaps it's not a huge improvement but it's significant to me in how the car feels and drives during the kind of driving that I do most often. And that is around town, windy back country roads, interstate highways, etc.
Let me put this another way. If I ordered a NSX from the factory and had the choice of stock gearing or the short gears/4.23, there would be no choice at all.
-Jim
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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
Looking for 76-79 Honda Accords
Well said, Jimbo.
Although the measurable differences are slight, if I had my choice of any available gearing with the five-speed, money no object, I'd probably go for the short gears/4.23 also.
Although the measurable differences are slight, if I had my choice of any available gearing with the five-speed, money no object, I'd probably go for the short gears/4.23 also.
No contest.
I few years ago I installed RM headers and exhaust. While the new great exhaust note gave a sense of performance, a really did not appreciate a significant performance change.
I just had short gears and 4.55 installed.
WOW
This was a radical change. The car is spirited and pulling at the reins. It wants to go. The rpms stay in the sweet spot all the time. Only downside is the gas mileage takes a hit. If I was looking only at the performance improvement--hands down on the gearing.
I few years ago I installed RM headers and exhaust. While the new great exhaust note gave a sense of performance, a really did not appreciate a significant performance change.
I just had short gears and 4.55 installed.
WOW
This was a radical change. The car is spirited and pulling at the reins. It wants to go. The rpms stay in the sweet spot all the time. Only downside is the gas mileage takes a hit. If I was looking only at the performance improvement--hands down on the gearing.
Could someone explain the technical differences between 4.23 and 4.55 r&p. I know the 4.23 is more subtle, but what exactly does that mean and what the numbers correlate to. You hear about these numbers a lot in the f-body and mustang worlds, talking about their 3.10 rear-end or whatever their special gearing is. Come to think of it, I couldn't even explain the difference before short gears and ring & pinion. Perhaps I am the only one out here that doesn't fully understand this, but who knows....
I have looked for this stuff in the past in the FAQ, but have yet to get a good explanation.
[This message has been edited by Sig (edited 20 June 2002).]
I have looked for this stuff in the past in the FAQ, but have yet to get a good explanation.
[This message has been edited by Sig (edited 20 June 2002).]
From this thread:
The ring and pinion (R&P) is "sometimes called the 'final drive gear'.
When your engine turns, the power is transmitted through one of the gears (one of five in the 5-speed, one of six in the 6-speed, one of four in the automatic) and also through the ring and pinion gear. So when you change the ratio of the R&P gear, it affects your gearing in ALL gears. The short gears affect gearing in each of the three gears that are replaced (second, third, and fourth)."
The stock R&P ratio is 4.062. With a 4.235 R&P, gearing is changed by a factor of 4.235/4.062 = 1.043. That means that the revs are 4.3 percent higher for any particular road speed and gear, and the speeds at which you hit redline are 4.3 percent lower. So, assuming stock gears, instead of reaching redline in second gear at 80 mph, you reach it at 76 mph. That's why you reach redline quicker, making the car feel much faster.
Because acceleration is a function of torque at the wheels, which depends on gearing, acceleration within a particular gear is improved with a higher numerical ratio ("shorter") R&P. But at speeds where it forces you into a higher gear (in this example, between 76 and 80 mph), your acceleration will be substantially poorer because you will be forced into a higher gear with the shorter R&P. That's why the measured improvements with the shorter R&P are so small; you have a slight improvement at wide "speed bands" where you are in the same gear with eather R&P, offset by a significant worsening at narrow speed bands" where you are in a higher gear with the shorter R&P. Net overall, it improves acceleration, but not by as much as you would expect from the improvement it gives you within any given gear.
[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 20 June 2002).]
I would go with 4:55. The 4.23 is too little different, that when you go with bigger wheels/tires the advantage cancell out.
I would agree from a performance standpoint. I have driven an NSX with short gears and a 4.55 R&P many times and the car is very quick. However, while cruising on the freeway, you can hear the R&P and it gets annoying really fast. The noise goes away when you lift but when you're on the gas to maintain your speed, the "hum" of the R&P is prominent.
I've driven an NSX with short gears/4.23 and I hear no R&P noise. Why can't Comptech can't build a 4.55 to Honda's quality standards? If they did, I'd definitely consider it over the 4.23. If you drive your NSX primarily around town and on windy roads, you don't notice the 4.55 R&P noise. It's on the open highway. I could tolerate it for city driving but not for highway cruising. For these reasons, the short gears/4.23 R&P is my choice.
BTW, I drive Mike Niday's supercharged NSX quite a bit with the Comptech blower, headers, exhaust, Dali flywheel & clutch, short gears and 4.55 R&P. The car is INSANELY FAST. If you don't watch the tach, 8000RPM comes real fast. I've bumped the rev limiter so many times when I wasn't watching. The 4.55 R&P does make a huge difference in this case, without a doubt.
Vytas
[This message has been edited by Vytas (edited 20 June 2002).]
In reaching redline quickly, yes, without a doubt.
In actual acceleration figures, well, let's check with Bob and expand our numbers again by showing the 4.55 as well:
0-60
Stock '91-94 NSX: 5.31
Stock '91-94 with short gears: 5.09
Stock '91-94 with 4.23: 5.18
Stock '91-94 with short gears and 4.23: 4.96
Stock '91-94 with 4.55: 4.98
Stock '91-94 with short gears and 4.55: 4.74
Stock '91-94 with 15 more hp: 5.00
0-80
Stock '91-94 NSX: 7.98
Stock '91-94 with short gears: 8.10
Stock '91-94 with 4.23: 8.12
Stock '91-94 with short gears and 4.23: 7.98
Stock '91-94 with 4.55: 7.99
Stock '91-94 with short gears and 4.55: 7.76
Stock '91-94 with 15 more hp: 7.50
0-100
Stock '91-94 NSX: 12.30
Stock '91-94 with short gears: 11.83
Stock '91-94 with 4.23: 12.08
Stock '91-94 with short gears and 4.23: 12.04
Stock '91-94 with 4.55: 11.74
Stock '91-94 with short gears and 4.55: 11.95
Stock '91-94 with 15 more hp: 11.52
0-150
Stock '91-94 NSX: 37.78
Stock '91-94 with short gears: 41.06
Stock '91-94 with 4.23: 38.26
Stock '91-94 with short gears and 4.23: 39.82
Stock '91-94 with 4.55: 37.02
Stock '91-94 with short gears and 4.55: 37.66
Stock '91-94 with 15 more hp: 33.25
1/4 mile
Stock '91-94 NSX: 13.67
Stock '91-94 with short gears: 13.56
Stock '91-94 with 4.23: 13.57
Stock '91-94 with short gears and 4.23: 13.48
Stock '91-94 with 4.55: 13.43
Stock '91-94 with short gears and 4.55: 13.38
Stock '91-94 with 15 more hp: 13.35
I'm sure Mike's supercharger made a lot bigger difference than the gearing mods.
Geez Ken, You have too much time on your hands
That being said, it looks like short gears + 4.55 is the best way to go.
[This message has been edited by NetViper (edited 20 June 2002).]
That being said, it looks like short gears + 4.55 is the best way to go.
[This message has been edited by NetViper (edited 20 June 2002).]
Russ, its a simple solution and will ease your mind. get both
David
David
I had the short gears & 4.55 R&P put in last year by Mark B. along with a Dali StreetClutch. I thoroughly enjoy the setup. I can it's a little faster or a lot faster since I don't have before and after numbers, but, just like the others have said, my fun quotient has risen SUBSTANTIALLY. 1-2 and 2-3 gear shifts are so much more enjoyable.
And yes, MPG has suffered.
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1995 NSX-T
1999 3.2TL
2001 Odyssey
1992 SC400
[This message has been edited by FuryNSX (edited 21 June 2002).]
And yes, MPG has suffered.
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1995 NSX-T
1999 3.2TL
2001 Odyssey
1992 SC400
[This message has been edited by FuryNSX (edited 21 June 2002).]
Why didn't I think of that?
I've decided to get the gears first, probably will have Davis Acura do it, although it may be easier to order the box from Dali and have my local Acura dealer install it. I wonder whether Davis Acura would be willing to install a Dali Street Racer clutch & light flywheel when I the gears done???
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Russ
'91 black/black
Ask before you buy. My understanding is that Davis has a policy of only installing parts that are purchased through them.
- Joined
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- Messages
- 1,809
If I'm not mistaken, I believe that the numbers commonly quoted are computer simulations rather than actual test numbers, right? While these numbers certainly do have a great degree of credibility, I'd be interested to see actual real world comparisons.
Honda chose to put the short gears and 4.23 on the '92-'95 NSX-R for a reason. I find it hard to believe that Honda would make this change, just because it "feels" faster.
Probably pretty difficult to get this information, but I'd be interested to hear why Honda chose to do it.
-Ben
Honda chose to put the short gears and 4.23 on the '92-'95 NSX-R for a reason. I find it hard to believe that Honda would make this change, just because it "feels" faster.
Probably pretty difficult to get this information, but I'd be interested to hear why Honda chose to do it.
-Ben
It doesn't just feel faster. It is faster. But the difference is very minor - so minor that I wouldn't bother paying a whole lot of money for it as a mod (although I do think that the short/4.235 is preferable).
While Honda hasn't made a statement about it, it's pretty clear that they put the fastest gears in the -R, and that they put the standard gears in the Stateside NSX because they wanted the car to have a bit better gasoline mileage, with a minor decrease in acceleration.
While Honda hasn't made a statement about it, it's pretty clear that they put the fastest gears in the -R, and that they put the standard gears in the Stateside NSX because they wanted the car to have a bit better gasoline mileage, with a minor decrease in acceleration.
The short gears are absolutely worth the money. Every time I pull away from light or a stop sign I REALLY appreciate the change.
It may be a minor change according to the stopwatch, but when it comes to driveability the change is MAJOR!
The 4.23 R&P change is not as major, but it too enhances the car's driveability and if you're going to do the previous "major" improvement that I just cited, then the 4.23 is a no-brainer.
All in my opinion, of course.
-Jim
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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
Looking for 76-79 Honda Accords
It may be a minor change according to the stopwatch, but when it comes to driveability the change is MAJOR!
The 4.23 R&P change is not as major, but it too enhances the car's driveability and if you're going to do the previous "major" improvement that I just cited, then the 4.23 is a no-brainer.
All in my opinion, of course.
-Jim
------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
Looking for 76-79 Honda Accords
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