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Racing Gas-tried 100 octane

Joined
4 December 2001
Messages
339
Location
San Pedro, Ca.
In California our 'premium' is only 91 octane. I have noticed a significant inprovement to performance when traveling out of state in my Audi S4 with it's twin turbos(stock). I figured I would try some Unocal 'Racing' 100 octane in the NSX (comptech headers and ECU, but stock otherwise) and I am pretty surprised at the improvement. No tip-in stumble, more torque at all RPM's. What do you guys with more 'improvements' do for gas in California? It seems to me if a stock engine can produce a significant gain with just octane, a supercharger would be straining against ingnition retard constantly. I won't be using this gas all the time at $4.17/gallon.
 
I've also noticed such an improvement on racing gas as well. I did not dyno or do anything to quantify this, it's just a seat-of-the-pants opinion.

Some here have tried to attribute this improvement to a "placebo effect", but I think it was real and I'm surprised at how much of a difference there was.

-Jim

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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
1976 Honda Accord 5 spd, 3 door Blue/Blue
1977 Honda Accord - Custom - Under Construction
1986 Chevy Suburban
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html
 
I've used 100 numerous times at the glen,but only because I was too lazy to drive into town to refuel,and I percieve no difference from 93.
 
I buy 106 octane by the 55 gallon drum and the price works out to about $3.65/gallon.I get it from the same person I used to get 116 octane for the drag car.

Sometimes I run 5 gallons some times 10 gallons .It totally eliminates "all" ping detonation even when it's 115 degrees w/ the a/c on and your under load.




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WWW.MYNSX.COM
 
Yes, Ive read the articles about how most cars will run just fine on regular. But there is a difference with the higher octane,
maybe it's the more aggressive curve in the ECU?
 
It would be interesting to really answer this question. It's common knowledge that higher octane, in and of itself, doesn't create higher HP or better performance, but many new ECUs are able to adjust on the fly based on incipient detonation.

Does anyone know for sure if the NSX ECU is capable of making significant changes like this?

-Jim

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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
1976 Honda Accord 5 spd, 3 door Blue/Blue
1977 Honda Accord - Custom - Under Construction
1986 Chevy Suburban
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html
 
I Have a 1968 427 Corvette that "pinged" so bad - even octane booster did very little to help.

Finally went to our local airstrip and got some airplane fuel (100 octane). Mixed it 50/50 into the Corvette and WOW! Made the car drive and sound like it should! Really puts a smile on my face when I drive the car now . . . a big difference indeed.

By the way, this fuel usually runs about 2.50 to 3.00 per gallon.

I have a couple of other vintage cars that I mix the fuel with also on a regular basis. Not as high of a ratio though, but less. Maybe about 3 gallons for each 10. Although the difference is not as dramatic as the Corvette, there does seem to be a little improvement. It also makes me feel a bit better when I "get on it" some.

I have not yet put any in the NSX, but feel though I will do so. Maybe just 2 or 3 gallons - mixed with a full tank of premium.

Not that I think it needs it, or will help. But then again . . . who knows.



[This message has been edited by WA-NSX (edited 19 November 2002).]

[This message has been edited by WA-NSX (edited 20 November 2002).]
 
Yes, California gas STINKS!!! We also have the MTBE additive that further drains the quality of the fuel. The only good news we have is that CA. has met the 5 year time duration using MTBE and we no longer have to use it. The only station out here I know of that no longer uses MTBE is 76 as the others are soon to follow.

To answer the question about how we deal with the crappy octane on our forced induction NSX's is... a lot of octain booster, dramatic timing retard, and a very rich AF ratio. On my TT I have to run AV gas (100 octane) if I am even considering a heavy pedal day.
 
I have tried unleaded racing gas (octane 100 to 105) and my experience is the same as docjohn's. I have never noticed any difference between the racing gas and normal premium fuel (octane 92 to 94). I have never experienced any detonation (pinging) with any of these fuels.
 
The higher the octane number is its ability to burn slower. Usually in stock production cars, higher-octane will in-fact give your car less performance. I did say usually because most production cars are built to run on current gas standards. A) Standards do change, notably when the US went from leaded to unleaded fuel, or in California with lower octane numbers. (The reason California has a lower octane number, is because the over compensating tree huggers who eliminated lead, found that the chemicals used to replace the lead are more than 1000 % worse for the environment). B) The NSX is a high performance car, and though it may live on lower octane, the optimal spec may be higher then what they advertise as necessary. The need for a slower burn is necessary when changing compression ratios, squish velocity, back pressure, heat or advancing the timing. Lead is the only known element found to bring levels over a true 104 motor octane. Many companies advertise 110+ unleaded fuels, but that’s research octane (Kind of like the wheel vs. crank HP), and some advertisers just outright lie. Most of these 110+ test at or below 101 octane. True 103+ octane unleaded costs about $8.50 a gallon, and has very volatile tune characteristics (Hyper temperature sensitive) and smells like Propylene or Nitro. If I needed higher octane I would run leaded fuels, (of course if it was allowed by the sanctioning organization). The best dyno tested unleaded fuel is Phillips 66 B42, and its relatively lower cost. Oh for those that don’t know race fuel numbers, leaded fuel can go over 118 motor octane for very high nitrous applications.


Rob
X-VP Fuel Distributor
 
Hey Guys,

I am from the school of thought that there really are no gains as you go upscale on octane, based on a few assumptions. Octanes purpose as stated is an "anti-knock" agent that will minimize "knocking" or "pinging". So, if the compression ratio is such that on 91 octane fuel there is no pinging, going higher has no effect.

With that said, Jim you ask a good question. Now I do not know the NSX ECU to the detail level to exactly answer this, but.... The NSX ECU does use "knock" sensors, so it has some ability to probably change (retard) the timing if it detects "knocking/pinging". So if your car, for whatever reason has timing adjustments due to gas quality, and THEN you go to higher octane fuel, you may actually get a performance difference.

In the Northeast, typical "high octane" is 93 and we do use MTBE in the winter months (maybe all year, not sure)

MY $.02,
LarryB
 
WA-NSX's experience with his higher compression Corvette makes sense. There the higher octane allowed the car to run properly without detontation.

Perhaps the ECU of the NSX is indeed capable of adjusting the timing or other aspects to take advantage of the higher octane fuel.

As Larry points out the NSX does have a knock sensor so it's understandable why one wouldn't hear a knock or ping under most conditions.

Looks like we'll have to do a bit more digging to find the answer.

-Jim

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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
1976 Honda Accord 5 spd, 3 door Blue/Blue
1977 Honda Accord - Custom - Under Construction
1986 Chevy Suburban
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html
 
I just got back from taking a tour of BP's fuel research facility. http://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84557

Basically what I got out of it was that the difference between 87 and 93 is what a lot skeptics say. Not much. A higher octane rating does not mean that particular type of gas has a better energy density. As mentioned a few times, octane is simply to help fight 'knock'. If you car isn't knocking at all at 87 you shoulnd't be able to tell a difference in performance between 87 and 93. Our Honda's have a typically higher CR then most so they guy said we MAY be able to tell a difference on some days (hot weather, heavy load) but he said he would be very suprised if anyone could tell a difference between 91 and 93. The knock sensor we have is to obviously retard the timing if it senses any, but the book definition is to simply sense octane rating. Their amoco ultimate 93 octane is their top of the line fuel, and I found that most of it's features are basically lower contents of sulfur and other chemicals which produce less deposits and lower emmisions. A cleaner burning gas....not a gas that will make more power. So you guys running N/A nsx's with stock timing, dont waste your money on 100+ octane!
smile.gif


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jack of all trades, master of some.
I don't own an NSX.
 
Originally posted by true:
... A higher octane rating does not mean that particular type of gas has a better energy density. As mentioned a few times, octane is simply to help fight 'knock'. If you car isn't knocking at all at 87 you shoulnd't be able to tell a difference in performance between 87 and 93.....not a gas that will make more power.

I agree that the energy delivered by 87 vs 93 is probably marginal, all else being equal - the point is, if the knock sensor is retarding the ignitin to eliminate knock (i.e. it of course would be imperceptible if working correctly!) then you are losing power because of this fact, not inherent in the octane rating for its own sake. For there to be a perceivable power increase, then it would be associated with the ignition not being retarded to eliminate knocking caused by the lower octane rated gas. (higher octane WILL reduce tendency to detonate, especially with the high compression NSX)
The $64,000 question is, how much does the ECU actually retard the ignition upon effective recognition of detonation & is it perceptible in terms of output power?
 
I've heard Hondata say that the Honda ECU can pull only around 3 degrees max. I don't know if this is accurate, but it sounds about right...that would be plenty N/A. I have an aftermarket knock sensor that can pull 20 degrees from each indivdual cylinder. Amazing machine made by j&s electronics. It's as close a safety gaurd you will ever have on a boosted motor. Anyways, back to octane ratings...has anyone EVER heard their N/A nsx ping or detonate on any fuel grade gas? I know just because its not audible doesn't mean its not happening.

I get the point of losing power IF the nsx ecu is retarding D`ecosse, but I wouldn't be suprised in the least if it doesn't generally pull any timing with 87. It certainly won't at cruising speed. Would be slick if we could see if the knock sensor is in use. With Hondata if you're connected to the laptop it tells you when the knock sensor is pulling timing. I drive my GSR hard on 87 and I've never seen it pull any timing. The nsx C/R isn't THAT high.

[This message has been edited by true (edited 19 November 2002).]
 
The NSX ECU can pull timing (how much, I don't know) All modern ECUs can pull timing to compensate for high ambient temperatures, high load, etc.

Running higher octane in the summer months in Arizona will probably make a difference, for anyone that lives where it is hot, I'm sure you can notice a difference in the car's "pep" on cold winter nights vs. 100+ degree summer days. In that respect, 100+ octane will help, other-wise it's a waste of money and can actually hurt performance since it's slower to burn.

With that said...

Be careful if you use AvGas! It is not unleaded! The standard "cheap" AvGas is usually 100LL (ll= Low Lead). Running leaded gasoline through your car won't necessarily hurt the engine, but it will eventually foul out your O2 sensors and clog up your catalytic converter! Running some in there at the race track where you are WOT most of the time isn't too big a deal as the temps are high enough to vaporize the lead and it'll get burned long before it reaches the exhaust system, but driving on the street where you idle for periods of time and cruise at low RPMs on the freeway it'll be detrimental to your car (unless you like changing O2 sensors and cats!)

It works great on old American muscle since they don't have any fancy electronics or emissions equipment to get damaged.

100+ octane on my Turbo car yields 3-4MPH higher trap speeds and usually .4 seconds off my ET. That shows how crappy CA gas is!!

Keep in mind that they run 97 octane in Japan...

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-Mike
1994 Pearl Yellow Dodge Stealth R/T Twin Turbo
1970 Dodge Challenger 383 Magnum
 
Originally posted by JagdStealth:

Running higher octane in the summer months in Arizona will probably make a difference, for anyone that lives where it is hot, I'm sure you can notice a difference in the car's "pep" on cold winter nights vs. 100+ degree summer days.

Hi Mike, I would attribute that to colder intake temperatures. It runs better the colder the intake temperature because the air is more dense,(o2 molecules packed tigher?) not because of higher octane gas.
 
I have used 100 octane and it does make a difference in the car in my opinion. Both in the NSX and S2000. Just not worth to use consistently at $4.39 per gallon. Otherwise I would use this fuel exclusively.

Tan
 
Originally posted by WA-NSX:
I Have a 1968 427 Corvette that "pinged" so bad - even octane booster did very little to help.

Finally went to our local airstrip and got some airplane fuel (100 octane). Mixed it 50/50 into the Corvette and WOW! Made the car drive and sound like it should! Really puts a smile on my face when I drive the car now . . . a big difference indeed.


it will also dye the inside of your engine blue or green (depending on whether you use regular or low-lead...)

i used to run 100 in my old kawasaki motorcycle... it didn't seem to like it too much.


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Kaye & Trish
1998 NSX-T #176
Red/Tan
No mods...
NSXCA #108
-My other car is a 767-
 
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