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Spongy Brake Issue

Tai

Experienced Member
Joined
3 June 2006
Messages
395
Location
Sausalito
Greetings,

I've searched through a few threads and haven't found one that seems to match my issue exactly, so I decided to start anew.

My '93 has developed terrible spongy brake feel, where I feel resistance in the brake pedal but don't feel the brakes activate until I push further into the pedal. I had my mechanic (Don from Hilltop Auto in Daly City) check for leaks, and he found none. I had him flush the lines and it helped improve pressure just slightly, but it seems to have returned to it's previous state. The brake fluid pump has always activated frequently, perhaps before the issue developed (approximately once for every 2-3 drives I take). I'm not sure if this is pointing to a leak in the system, if I need a new master cylinder, or if it's a potential ABS system failure, but the brakes are far from having the progressive confidence inspiring feel they used to have. The pedal does not go down to the floor. The car has oem brakes and aftermarket rotors and pads, with plenty of pad left. If I brake hard enough I can still activate the ABS, but it feels a bit dull, although it always felt dull.

There was an unusual incident that occurred last year, that may be related or could be a total red herring, but I feel that it is worth sharing. In 2013, I went for a spirited drive in the mountains and cooked my brakes a bit. Suddenly a metal on metal screeching sound seemed to emanate from the wheels, so I came to a stop. I rolled a bit in neutral, and the metal shearing sound was coming from my front wheels with the brakes not engaged, and I got the sense that my brakes were super hot and something was rubbing against something. I have the sound on video, if anyone's interested. I waited for a few minutes for things to cool down, and the sound went away, the care behaved normally. It seems that it could be possible that this incident had something to do with the spongy issue, as it developed afterwards, although not immediately afterwards.

My questions are, is this a leak or an ABS failure? Does anyone have any insight as to what the terrible sound was caused by, and could it potentially be related? So far I plan to change out the master cylinder, and install ss lines. If that doesn't improve things, then I'm assuming I will need to upgrade to the costly NA2 ABS system, which I would prefer to avoid if possible. Eventually I plan on upgrading to BBK, but not until I win the lotto.

Any recommendations are appreciated,

Thanks!
 
Are your brake lines the original ones?
If they are, and your system is leak free with fresh fluid, then perhaps the old rubber oem lines are tired and expanding too much under pressure giving you a spongy pedal.
I replaced my 20 year old rubber lines with braided steel ones and pedal feel improved dramatically.

The running of the ALB pump is to build up pressure in the accumulator so your ALB will work when called upon.
I don't think it's operation is related to a spongy pedal.
 
Tell me the method used for bleeding. Power bleed, pedal pump, vacuum bleed??
 
Hi Tai,

Sorry to say, but you need a new brake master cylinder. Been there, done that. I do not pedal bleed anymore, I use a vacuum bleeder. The pedal bleed on older brake M/C's causes failure. You can pedal bleed the new one, no problem. You can also pedal bleed the clutch system. BTW the ABS system is totally separate and not your issue.

HTH,
LarryB
 
Larry, interesting, what you referring to from new and older brake M/C? Newer model like 02 - 05 and older 91 - 01 or was it just newer versus older M/C by age?

Frankie
 
I believe he means by age, as the cylinder wears a step at the end of the travel. When you bleed by pumping past the step, it damages the seal. I might have thought that would cause your pedal to sink to the floor eventually but perhaps not.
 
The spongy feel issue was present before it was pedal-pump bled, so should I still plan on replacing the master cylinder? I had the brakes flushed to see if it would improve the spongy feeling, which it did but only slightly and temporarily. Thanks again!!!
 
As jwmelvin stated I meant age of the MC. If you do a thorough bleed and still cannot get a firm pedal the master is worn. Also you should test for firm pedal with the engine not running.

HTH,
LarryB
 
Haven't the same problem on right now, haven't driven it in a while thanks for the infor. on this post. was thinking about bleeding them, but now I see it may be pointless to do so. ;)
 
If you have not bled it, I would do that first then decide.....

Haven't the same problem on right now, haven't driven it in a while thanks for the infor. on this post. was thinking about bleeding them, but now I see it may be pointless to do so. ;)
 
When MC goes bad, your bake pedal feels soft and feels like you are waiting for the brake to engage. Almost feels like there is no brakes until to pump it hard again while braking.
 
While we are on the topin of brakr MC. I have notice this spongy issue on my 93 intermittently. Condition: hot out, been driving for an hour. Once in awhile the pedal will get soft and spongy and goes slowly to the floor. Pump it a little then its firm again.. doesnt happen all the time. Only one or twice here and therd. But the weather must be hot out for it to happen.
No leak under brake pedal. Abs sometime prime, sometime doesnt. Bled and new fluid bout 1.5 yrs ago, by source1automotive. Since i dont drive that much the abs dont get much exercise. Sometime it stick.. dont know if the spongy to the floor is related to abs not priming.

Thought?
 
Last summer my brake pedal would sometimes slowly go to the floor so I did a brake and ABS fluid flush. After the flush, it did not resolve the issue as my brake pedal would still have a very large travel. This summer I told the dealership to replace the master cylinder and it resolved the issue.
 
While we are on the topin of brakr MC. I have notice this spongy issue on my 93 intermittently. Condition: hot out, been driving for an hour. Once in awhile the pedal will get soft and spongy and goes slowly to the floor. Pump it a little then its firm again.. doesnt happen all the time. Only one or twice here and therd. But the weather must be hot out for it to happen.
No leak under brake pedal. Abs sometime prime, sometime doesnt. Bled and new fluid bout 1.5 yrs ago, by source1automotive. Since i dont drive that much the abs dont get much exercise. Sometime it stick.. dont know if the spongy to the floor is related to abs not priming.

Thought?

I had the exact same issue.
You need a new master.
As the fluid/master cylinder gets hot the fluid is able to barely leak past the seal (fluid thins out slightly, master cylinder expands).

Get a new one and you'll be good to go.
 
I had the exact same issue.
You need a new master.
As the fluid/master cylinder gets hot the fluid is able to barely leak past the seal (fluid thins out slightly, master cylinder expands).

Get a new one and you'll be good to go.

Thank you. I will put that on the list for next spring/summer maintenance..
 
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