Track Days - what is the issue?

[BioBanker]

One of the things that the founding members of our Club thought would be important, and popular, are track days.

There is so much to learn about our cars, and there is no where better to do that than on a track in a controlled and safe environment. Our cars were made for being on a track but so few of them ever make it out on one.

With a number of track days behind us already, and very few members attending them, I think that now is a good time to ask why.

Our entire goal of the club is to maximize the enjoyment of owning an NSX, be it on day to day stuff, via social meets, drives, or via the track experience.

Now is a great time to tell us what it is that is keeping you from coming to the track.

Is it the specific days? The time involved? Is it concern about damaging your car? Are you just not interested? Please, tell us so that we can adjust to whatever it is you guys need.

 

[BigYellowMan]

1. Fear of damaging the car. Insurance will not cover while the car is on track.
2. Am not independently wealthy so must work during the week. Could only make it on weekends.

 

[BioBanker]

Two excellent points.

Firstly, it is likely that your car is in fact covered by insurance, but it is certainly prudent to assume that it is not. Read your policy (do not call insurance and ask). Most read that your car is not covered if you are being timed or in preparation for being timed. I know three friends who have gotten the entire value of their car out of the insurance company after track mishaps. The chance of a mishap on the DDT is extremely low, although we saw it happen once last year.

Understand the weekend thing. That is a prime consideration forsure, but one that we can work with.

Keep'em'coming. We want to come up with a formula that will work for you guys.

 

[RSO 34]

Firstly, it is likely that your car is in fact covered by insurance, but it is certainly prudent to assume that it is not. Read your policy (do not call insurance and ask). Most read that your car is not covered if you are being timed or in preparation for being timed.

Unless it is taking longer for Canadian insurers to catch up, virtually every insurer now specifically excludes any driving on a track for any purpose, whether timed or just HPDE. It started when the carriers "caught on" to the growth of HPDE and began paying out many more claims on a regular basis. One by one they have re-written their exclusionary language and it is a rare insurer who still provides that coverage.

 

[GECKO]

Insurance will cover you if you have a good underwriter and full coverage while on the track as long as there is no timing, no green "start" flag, no checkered "finish" flag, and you are not using a timing device. This holds true for bikes I know for fact.........cars - at least my policy will cover it as I did ask a while ago when I took it out and I was covered then and have not changed my policy or company. Yes - I did hear they are reviewing the coverage due to the increase in claims from TD drivers/riders. Then again, they insure our ATV's for the full coverage and they know you're going into the woods to deek around trees, sink it in mud and submerge it in water - yet it's knowing full well you're going to roll it or smack it into a tree.

 

[RSO 34]

Insurance will cover you if you have a good underwriter and full coverage while on the track as long as there is no timing, no green "start" flag, no checkered "finish" flag, and you are not using a timing device.

I still encourage everyone to check their policy exclusions because I was covered up until January of this year insofar as Allstate was one of the last to exclude that coverage. Most people don't reallize their policies have changed because there is no obligation on the part of the carrier to advise you that the coverage has been excluded and it is up to the insured to read their policy. If you choose to track your car, as I do often, knowing that you have no coverage then that is one type of risk. However, if you choose to be "blind" to the trend of excluding coverage for ANY track driving then you may be surprised when you have to pay personally for that armco moment.

 

[Oyagi]

For tis date, purely bad luck. My engine spins...its just not transferring the power to the tranny

 

[Tamar]

6 months ago I barely knew what an NSX was, so after I bought mine and heard that the club was being formed I saw that as a great opportunity to meet people with a common interest and to learn something about my car. It wasn't until later on that I found out about the opportunity for lessons and track days. The problem for those of us that compete in other sports/pastimes etc. is that our year is pretty much committed early on. I am determined to do the Aug 3rd event but it means I have to rearrange the entire weekend, and probably let someone down, in order to do it. My point is that if, in future years, we could have a schedule of events early on in the year, I for one, and probably several other members could book 3 or 4 days into our schedule and rearrange the rest of our lives around them.

 

[lucky guy's '93]

Big Sigh! I would truly love to take the NSX to the track and LEARN how to drive. Not being a smart alec, just know that this car has so much more to offer than I will ever experience on the street. Here's the catch, I am married to an underwriter and we are DEFINITELY not insured. So not being independently wealthy, and having saved for a period of time to purchase a car we love, minimizing risk becomes important. I know I know being on a track is safer than a public street, however until insurance companies see it the same way I won't be taking the car to the track. Weird part is that if it were easier to insure cars on the track, it may help eliminate some of the underground street racing that happens in larger centers

 

[coiler]

Track days? seemed to me we all went around in circles, ended up in the same place and the prize money was the same for everyone:biggrin: Problem with the car is that it is OK as you will learn after your first few days but needs about 5 grand worth of upgrades to get it to being somewhat decent for the track. I enjoy working on my car so it was fun doing the upgrades and taking it to the track to see if it all worked as planned and it did which was pretty cool! No doubt you can learn a lot about driving the car which is beneficial and some of this does transfer to road conditions for sure .I think everyone should at least do a few days to get the experience ( especially if you want to do some spirited street driving) . However after the first few days the learning curve slows down and the cost goes up as you have to dig deep to get the smaller incremental performance increases and this is where it becomes a balance of doing this or doing many other things that we all enjoy. A track day costs me about $ 600- $ 800 and I now live out of the city and could easily survive without doing any work for a good few weeks on that. So its do I have one day of fun or 2 or 3 weeks of not having to work ( golf and kitesurfing included!) I'm opting more and more for the no work :biggrin:
I'm also lucky in that the route to my In Laws place is along Muskoka Rd 13 ( Fall drive 06) and I get to do it at least 10 to 15 times per year and if I get a good clean shot at it without any traffic( and without breaking the law too much) this is where I feel the car is at its best and I enjoy it most. Different strokes for different folks and I respect all from those who track as much as possible to those who just want to shine and look at it as I do a little of both at any given time.
Its a classic and we all enjoy it in our own ways.
Cheers!

 

[BioBanker]

This is great feedback.

The insurance thing is certainly a concern for everyone, and people do need to be very aware of the situation. That is one of the reasons we have chosen the DDT as a track introduction. It is as safe a track as you can get given that it was designed to put complete novice drivers in F2000 cars. Ive spun F2000 cars on that track frequently. Ive spun and spun and spun and skidded off track backwards at speeds that are well above what an NSX could get to on that track, and when Ive finally come to rest, Ive still had hundreds of feet of run-off left. That track was designed for a car to depart the track without consequence.

If you drive the car with control, it is very unlikely that you will leave the track. But if you do, there is only a remote chance that your car will get damaged as a result. But yes, it can happen and we have seen it. It is rare though.

The track schedule was put up in February, but unless you knew where it was, you'd never find it. It is HERE

I will try to update it again this week for the coming Kensai and other days.

Bruce, I disagree that the car needs extensive modifications after just a few days on track. But unfortunatley, I agree that once you're into R compound tires, higher performance pads, and you're running quick times and want the car teched more frequently, that yes, you can easly get an all in cost of over $750 per day including the track fees and gas and rubber and in Stu's case, balls.

 

[Red]

Ive spun and spun and spun and skidded off track backwards at speeds that are well above what an NSX could get to on that track, and when Ive finally come to rest, Ive still had hundreds of feet of run-off left. That track was designed for a car to depart the track without consequence.

I've had my NSX out on the DDT and purposely tried (and succeeded) in spinning it - one day I spun about 16 times! (only didn't catch the car on the first few times, then was able to "recover it". I was specifically looking for the feeling of just before the car spins and also trying to understand what to do when you feel the feeling - most drivers (track and otherwise) mess up because they have no experience so if they do get a little wonky they over correct, or don't notice they are at the outside of the envelope - my experience has saved me on the BIG tracks MANT times now - but thats because I'm pushing the car way harder than schools allow and not driving the "line" on purpose - I'm trying to become an "Expert Racer/Driver", which is beyond an "Advanced Driver" - and there IS risk there - trust me!:smile:

If you drive the car with control, it is very unlikely that you will leave the track. But if you do, there is only a remote chance that your car will get damaged as a result. But yes, it can happen and we have seen it. It is rare though.

On the DDT, where there is only one wall, you will actually have the ability to decide if you're going to crash - act stupid in the turn before the wall - you will crash - act responsible, you'll be fine. On any track, when guys crash, its because they were pushing the car beyond their ability - thats ego and attitude. Dave and I go to dozens of track days (I'm up to 14 this year, and I did 30 last year) and generally the same group is at most - they don't crash. Its generally either the new guys or the guys who come out once or twice a year and think they're as good as (even) Dave. Arrogance and attitude (the need for speed, without consideration for skill) cause crashes.

Bruce, I disagree that the car needs extensive modifications after just a few days on track.

Totally stock cars are BETTER to learn on - the more you mod the car for the track the more likely you will improve your comfort level without a commensurate improvement in driver skill - a formula for trouble!:wink:

But unfortunatley, I agree that once you're into R compound tires, higher performance pads, and you're running quick times and want the car teched more frequently, that yes, you can easly get an all in cost of over $750 per day including the track fees and gas and rubber and in Stu's case, balls.

Yes, since my car has a "monoball" suspension (i.e. no rubber bushings) they wear and need to be maintained. The advantage is go-kart like performance, the disadvantage is that Dave can make ball jokes.

Dave's learned to drive without balls - Claire keeps them somewhere safe for him and certainly doesn't let him have them to come to the track on the weekends!:biggrin:

 

[RSO 34]

On any track, when guys crash, its because they were pushing the car beyond their ability - thats ego and attitude.

Not necessarily true. You have to consider mechanical failures such as the car in front of you blowing an engine or just having a hose come loose causing the cars behind to lose control as fluids make the track like teflon. Or you can have the pleasure of exeriencing how an NSX handles on three wheels like I did at Lime Rock when the studs fail.

 

[Red]

Not necessarily true. You have to consider mechanical failures such as the car in front of you blowing an engine or just having a hose come loose causing the cars behind to lose control as fluids make the track like teflon. Or you can have the pleasure of exeriencing how an NSX handles on three wheels like I did at Lime Rock when the studs fail.

I won't argue your points - just the venue in which they occur - on the DDT @ Mosport top speed is less than 100 mph and everyone in your run group is a beginner(ish) - or at least at the same level as you.

The stuff you're talking about can happen on a high speed track with advanced drivers, the wheel studs failing is a surprise, but I wonder if its because you torque your wheels hot (I only torque my wheels at the beginning of the day) failure is usually tied to over-torquing.

Fluid spills happen, but thats one reason to tech cars before every event and to go to events that insist on techs. I wouldn't go to an event that has sloppy tech rules - but yes, even then shit happens.

For LEARNERS (first few timers) a small track with lots of run-off is the way to go - IMO when you get more serious, you lay down an amount of cash you're comfortable with and buy a fully caged racecar with a Hans device.

That way you limit your risk to a more or less controllable window.

That said, if you don't take your street car out and learn you'll never know if you like it - so we're back to small (low speed), safe (lots of run off) tracks with instructors sitting in the car with you the whole time and classroom sessions and driving exercises, not just track time.

 

[BioBanker]

For greater clarity, the track we are talking about his HERE

 

[RSO 34]

The stuff you're talking about can happen on a high speed track with advanced drivers, the wheel studs failing is a surprise, but I wonder if its because you torque your wheels hot (I only torque my wheels at the beginning of the day) failure is usually tied to over-torquing.


For LEARNERS (first few timers) a small track with lots of run-off is the way to go

The failed studs surprised me a whole lot more than they did you. I also torque when cold in the morning and check once during the day after the car has been "resting" for a while, usually after a lunch break. We never did figure out why the studs failed although there was a debate as to whether a car that is tracked often could be considered to be "over torqued" simply because we check them before every track event and the act of using a torque wrench 50-75 times over the course of several years necessarily puts stress on the studs when compared with the number of times a non-track rat actually torques the wheels in the same time period.

I didn't realize your track was such a slow speed track. I agree that it is a good place for beginners to be just as Texas Motorsports Ranch was for NSXPO in 2002 where a spin generally results in nothing more than an automatic membership in the 360 degree club.

 

[BioBanker]

Bob - this is one of the local tracks and when I said that it was designed for novice F2000 drivers, I include people who dont know how to drive standard transmissions in that.

This facility is used for corporate events. They supply the cars, instructors, lunch and a good time for companies to bring clients and employees up for some fun. It is a glorified go-kart track. Even the F2000 cars have trouble getting to 100mph.

The track is available for rent when there are no corporate events going on.

 

[omeys_berlina]

I am not able to make it because my motor is out being built. If I had my motor, I wouldn't make it due to scheduling.

 

[RSO 34]

Bob - this is one of the local tracks and when I said that it was designed for novice F2000 drivers, I include people who dont know how to drive standard transmissions in that.

In that case you lucky canucks should be out there every chance you can get to enjoy your cars. Take advantage of this great opportunity to learn about your cars in a safer environment than on the highways. Plus the experience will make you a better daily driver as well.

 

[BioBanker]

And when you guys are ready for the Big Track, it is right next door to the one above!

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?do...l=8&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

 

[coiler]

The stock car is OK ( earlier models) but your brakes will be demolished in 2 or 3 days so that is one safety and durability mod really necessary. I cooked my rotors in 2 days and I really wasn't even going that hard. I only have about 8 days on track and as you probably know it doesn't take too long to want more performance . I did the first 3 on a totally stock car and it was great to learn how it handled but it is much more enjoyable now with stiffer suspension and brakes you can rely on. I rode R compounds for the first time and found them safer as they stick to the cement patches and seemed more consistent.
Best safety mod is to leave the ego at home and drive your car at your own pace.
I agree the NSX only needs very slight changes to make it good for the track, thats why I restricted the estimated total to approx 5 Gs
:biggrin: :biggrin:

 

[swbatte]

If anyone doubts a stock NSX's prowress on the track watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8-zbfdPfRg&mode=related&search=

Ok, he had 300 hp and a Type R suspension. Fine, he'd still mop the floor with any of us, driving any car with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izaWlKxVo1A&mode=related&search=

The stock NSX isn't a limitation at the track. The driver is. The brakes are very good and hold up well when the car is driven properly and the tires are fantastic as well. Come on out to the track and have a professional driver take you around for a few laps in your stock car and see if needs to be modified, or maybe your driving needs modification.

As far as insurance goes, find out if you're insured for driving schools or driver's education. Most insurance companies cover this and there venues that conform to that to!

 

[GECKO]

I am sure that for cars it's the same as with bikes whereas, there are VERY few and far between people that exceed the limits of a stock piece of equipment when racing. Sure, in bikes we need to upgrade the suspension for the more agressive type of riding, but there are certainly no amateurs out there that over-ride the bikes ability vs. our own. Stock cars will hold the same and only when you get to a very advanced level (when driving something like the NSX, Vette, Mustang) will a driver need upgrades.

The RDT is VERY user friendly even on bikes. If I could drive on the track at a reasonable price for my car (yes, it's still a car) a few times a month then it would never see the street. Track riding is BY FAR the safest venue to take a car (or bike) out on and not have to worry about anything. If you the driver wants to be stupid or let his ego get in the way - then sure, you might find yourself running off the track. You control your own foot and gas pedal and I would suggest everyone get out and try the track at least once.

In one day of a school you will learn more about your car and driving then you have in your lifetime on the street.

Another suggestion in the event that some want to try the track or a "closed" off area - perhaps we can get something like an "Ian Law" school going for just the NSX's - he runs a GREAT school in Oshawa and it's at a parking lot........I think that would be a start so that some would get a chance to see what they can do in their car and then take it to the track.

Just my $0.25

 

[coiler]

If anyone doubts a stock NSX's prowress on the track watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8-zbfdPfRg&mode=related&search=

Ok, he had 300 hp and a Type R suspension. Fine, he'd still mop the floor with any of us, driving any car with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izaWlKxVo1A&mode=related&search=

The stock NSX isn't a limitation at the track. The driver is. The brakes are very good and hold up well when the car is driven properly and the tires are fantastic as well. Come on out to the track and have a professional driver take you around for a few laps in your stock car and see if needs to be modified, or maybe your driving needs modification.

As far as insurance goes, find out if you're insured for driving schools or driver's education. Most insurance companies cover this and there venues that conform to that to!

Yep, theres the $ 5000 worth of upgrades to get it track worthy.
Stock tires. No one has any left after 10,000km so its kinda a non issue for comparison sake.
I still say the brakes are weak. If you want to see how fast you can do on the backstraight at Mosport you are going to need brakes at the end, I can't see doing it any other way. Brakes really help into 3 and 5 as well. Sure you can ease off and coast in a bit to save brakes but then you have found the cars limit and need upgrades to get it to the next level. If you go out on a day with cars that have HP a plenty and good brakes there will be a lot of passing going on and it won't be by the car with 270 hp and 11" rotors.

http://www.1017.org/nsx/BrakeMods/index.html

Check out this link for some seat of the pants data( my favorite type) Even with a few small mods you can greatly improve cooling and therefore efficiency and durability. I did some mods and it was a huge difference not so much in braking as the stock stuff will still work for a while , but the new setup will do it all day long without fading or any chattering and inspires much more confidence. New setup has much easier pedal effort which took a bit of getting used to but its all good after a few laps.
My upgrades:
New front 11" floating rotors from Stoptech.
Carbotech Panther plus pads
Stainless Steel lines
New hi temp fluid throughout.
Removal of splash guard to allow for mucho more airflow
Handmade my own aluminum air deflectors approx 2.5 times as much surface area as stock.
Handmade lower Balljoint heatshield to protect my balls.
Disconnect ABS system
After a session the fronts are now as cool or cooler than the rears.

I did use the stock setup for the first few days but was wanting more pretty quick.
If you look at the stock numbers like .89 G lateral acceleration and the measly 11" brakes on a 3000+ lb car, I don't know how you can say the car is not limited by comparison to the numbers of other trackable type cars. Power to weight is of course another issue but since we are not racing here its really not important as the NSX will enter most any turn fast enough to get you in trouble.
One question is to ask those who go to the track regularly to see how many times they took a totally stock car out before taking or wanting to take the tools to it.
I love my car and always drive it within its limits:wink:

 

[BioBanker]

I dont know if my 02 has meaningfully better brakes than the older cars, but my stock set up (stock pads, stock fluid, stock calipers, stock rotors) was solid until I wore all that stuff out. I replaced it with upgraded pads and fluid, rest all stock. Have no issues braking coming down from 230kph down the straight into 8 and posting 1:36 to 1:38 lap times, lap after lap after lap. That is on my supercharged car. Prior to the charger, I had no issues with the full stock brakes coming down from 215ish kph. Never faded. Never ran out of brake.