turbo nsx's

[driftin180sx]

searching on your forum i couldnt help but notice almost all of the people that end up turbo charging their cars do it on stock internals. and even the ones who have mentioned that they built their engines none are using a stand alone EMS like an electromotive tec II or the AEM unit.
now maybe there is something i dont know about nsx tuning but for the price these twin turbo systems are selling for you could more then likely fab your own system with money left over.
but a 7psi system would never do it for me if i owned an nsx. so what i was really wondering is has anyone ever made any attempt to put together a twin turbo system utilizing upgraded forged pistons, resleaved cyls, upgraded rods, and a stronger metal headgasket at the least with some high flowing turbos like the HKS GT2835R x 2 or the greddy (trust) TD05 x 2? it seems to me all you would need is some custom exhaust manafolds, some oil lines to tap into the oil pan, a bov, custom downpipes with external wastegates, a water to air TMIC made for an MR2 with custom piping, and some custom intake piping and properly sized injectors on a custom rail all controlled with a TEC II, AEM, haltec, etc.... i would suppose the MAFS might pose a problem but with the stand alone you could upgrade to wideband. according to some ruff calculations, if you have any fabing capabilities at all, or a hookup at a place with a mandrel bending machine and do the rebuild yourself you could have this all done and dyno tuned for less then 15k and probably push a reliable 500-600rwhp if not more

[This message has been edited by driftin180sx (edited 24 April 2002).]

 

[smoore]

i believe their are a couple out their putting down 550 horses plus to the wheels with those mods but it does get costly

 

[driftin180sx]

forgot to compensate for the drivetrain. im sure a clutch upgrade would be mandatory but i have no idea how much power the halfshafts and tranny can withstand

 

[David]

Originally posted by driftin180sx:
the ones who have mentioned that they built their engines none are using a stand alone EMS like an electromotive tec II or the AEM unit.

Everyone I know with a built short block is using a programmable system. Who has a built motor that is not using one?

 

[jackmac]

HEy Drift,
Those setup you are referring to will run you more than 15K....trust me. Have you been in a turbo NSX before? If so, how much was the car boosting? My car is running 7lbs now and it feels quite strong.
JACK

 

[driftin180sx]

ive never been in turbo nsx but i have ridden in a FD rx-7 with 350rwhp, which is about what a bell twin turbo nsx will put you at, and it was very strong but not fast enough for me. i have close to 300rwhp in my 240sx and when it comes time to step up to another car i want it to be able to blow my current one away.
that setup will run you less then 15k if you do it all yourself. i personally can have pipes fabbed for me for next to nothing since i know someone who works in a shop with a mandrel bending pipe machine. i can get the pipes themselves from him at cost the rest boils down to where you buy everything from.

david:
i read up about someone on a search of this forum who was running 14.6 psi on a built engine but was using a piggyback fuel controller instead of going stand alone.

[This message has been edited by driftin180sx (edited 24 April 2002).]

 

[jackmac]

Hey Drift,
It will definately save you tons of money if you the work yourself...another issue you have to watch out is the tuning....the installation is easy but it all boils down to the correct tuning. Do you know anyone who could tune the car correctly for you?
JACK

 

[driftin180sx]

i dont have a hook up on the tunning but i do live down the street from Autothority which is one of the top tuners on the east coast. according to them they do complete dyno tunning starting at $500. just to clear something this topic isnt simple trolling on my part, my mom is buying a used NSX in the very immediate future and already mentioned to me that she would be interested in selling it to me (at a discounted but not insanely low price... i wont accept any offer lower then 15k) in maybe 3 or 4 years, so just doing early research i suppose

 

[David]

Originally posted by driftin180sx:

i read up about someone on a search of this forum who was running 14.6 psi on a built engine but was using a piggyback fuel controller instead of going stand alone.

I'm currious - who was that?

 

[mlambert890]

Originally posted by driftin180sx:
already mentioned to me that she would be interested in selling it to me (at a discounted but not insanely low price... i wont accept any offer lower then 15k) in maybe 3 or 4 years, so just doing early research i suppose

Er... Well, I can honestly say that she probably shouldn't be buying the car to begin with if she is already anticipating selling it to you in as little as 3 years.

Why go through the trouble of finding a used NSX in good shape (and it *is* a process), when you know you aren't even going to keep it?

For your usage, I don't think the NSX would be right. Based on what you indicated above about your desire to make a huge amount of HP and not spend too much, why wouldn't you just buy a Supra?

 

[driftin180sx]

why? because i dont like supras, they are pigs. besides, she is not in the market for anything more then a 91 or 92 going for no more then mid 30k, not that she cant afford more but she doesnt want to dump anymore then that on a secondary car... besides, who drives a car for more then 3 or 4 years anyways?
i have a deep love for "true" high end japanese sports cars, and the only modern ones i really consider earning that status are rx-7 and the nsx, both cars are expensive and difficult to obtain high hp values with, but i love a challenge. also i have to note that i am not doing this out of personal greed for a hook-up on an nsx, who knows if she will even sell it to me or if i will even want to buy the one she's getting, i honestly just want my mom who works literally 15 to 16 hours a day to enjoy driving to and from property and the office when she doesnt have to drive around clients or whatnot.

edit: also i never said i would be absolutely able to do it for that price, it probably will end up doubling if i really got into it, i was just making an observation and asking about other high power nsx's. also she is not spending any considerable time finding the cars because i am the ones who find them, call about the condition, and inquire about milage, damage, vehicle history and whatnot. she only comes into the equasion when i find a vehicle that is worth going down and test driving.

[This message has been edited by driftin180sx (edited 25 April 2002).]

 

[David]

Originally posted by driftin180sx:
[B rx-7 and the nsx, both cars are expensive and difficult to obtain high hp values with][/B]

Actually, any decent tuner can get 450-500 hp out of a Gen 3 pretty easily.

 

[Sensei]

Originally posted by driftin180sx:
searching on your forum i couldnt help but notice almost all of the people that end up turbo charging their cars do it on stock internals. and even the ones who have mentioned that they built their engines none are using a stand alone EMS like an electromotive tec II or the AEM unit.
now maybe there is something i dont know about nsx tuning but for the price these twin turbo systems are selling for you could more then likely fab your own system with money left over.

First, I think you're on the wrong forum. Second, aftermarket "stand-alone" systems aren't what you think they are.The ability to adjust fuel, timing and maybe V-TEC is only a fraction of what the factory ECU's control. The twin turbos that you mention are not your typical turbochargers... These are Variable Area Turbine Nozzle Turbochargers.Let's not even go there...

but a 7psi system would never do it for me if i owned an nsx. so what i was really wondering is has anyone ever made any attempt to put together a twin turbo system utilizing upgraded forged pistons, resleaved cyls, upgraded rods, and a stronger metal headgasket at the least with some high flowing turbos like the HKS GT2835R x 2 or the greddy (trust) TD05 x 2? it seems to me all you would need is some custom exhaust manafolds, some oil lines to tap into the oil pan, a bov, custom downpipes with external wastegates, a water to air TMIC made for an MR2 with custom piping, and some custom intake piping and properly sized injectors on a custom rail all controlled with a TEC II, AEM, haltec,

When's the last time you looked underneath an NSX... Running 2 GT2835's w/external wastegates??? Think you can shove all that boost through a MR2 type intercooler...good greif! The NSX is a 10.5 to 1 high compression motor w/forged aluminum pistons and also comes with Titanium Rods already, the 3.2 liters already comes with special fiber reinforced metal sleeves as well...up-grade to what???

i would suppose the MAFS might pose a problem but with the stand alone you could upgrade to wideband. according to some ruff calculations, if you have any fabing capabilities at all, or a hookup at a place with a mandrel bending machine and do the rebuild yourself you could have this all done and dyno tuned for less then 15k and probably push a reliable 500-600rwhp if not more

Yes the MAF may pose a problem... especially when the NSX doesn't have one. Regardless, the MAF or "stand alone" dosen't determine whether or not you can or cannot use wide-band O2 sensors. Understand, if it is that easy to do it would of been done by now.



[This message has been edited by driftin180sx (edited 24 April 2002).][/B][/QUOTE]

 

[David]

Originally posted by Sensei:
...good greif! The NSX is a 10.5 to 1 high compression motor w/forged aluminum pistons and also comes with Titanium Rods already, the 3.2 liters already comes with special fiber reinforced metal sleeves as well...up-grade to what???

Well, of the three parts you listed, two would need to be upgraded. And the compression is 10.2:1.

[This message has been edited by David (edited 25 April 2002).]

 

[nsxlr8]

People are just getting involved in the NSX community for serious aftermarket performance. They are just now becoming (With the older ones) anywhere near affordable. SOOOOO... It's pretty much been a proposition of. If I blow up a civic, I've just lost 3K. If I blow up my NSX. I've just lost a 30K engine. See the difference!? I don't know what you are talking about: a turbo kit being easy? Do you know how to calculate efficient A/R ratios? Compressor maps? The best intercooler pipe size? The needed frontal area of the intercooler? High turbulent fins or not? What size injectors to use? Exhaust manifolds? It's not even easy if you know what you're doing. You need to calculate all these things and about a billion other things before you just start throwing stuff together. Sure it may boost, but I bet a well put together kit with the same boost gives you quite a bit more. (Horsepower) and a reasonable amount of reliability.
Few people have tackled this past 6psi. I think we're all getting to the "higher" boost point, and we're going to Soon find out where the engine's weak point is. (probably the gaskets.) then again, just because somebody blows a piston, that doesnt mean that's where the engine's weak point is. Maybe the tuner screwed up on the fuel map. There's a long way for us to go (As an NSX community) but I think we're all going to get caught up soon judging by all the posts, like yours. More people are saying what if. If you've got the money, go for it. I WANT TO SEE ONE BLOW UP on high boost and I want to know why. (So I don't have to find out on my own) : )

 

[NSXTC]

That is Cameron Parsons. Take a look at the article about his car here:
http://www.autospeed.com/A_0035/page1.html?src=twr

He was at Pahrump this past weekend. He passed me so fast in the straightaway it was'nt even funny! He told me he was running "only" .45 or so of a Bar of Boost. He normally runs about a Bar (14.something PSI) and can crank it up to 1.5 Bar!!! I told him he ought ot get in touch with you, David and compare notes. His car will be in Mark Basch's shop for a few things next week, so you can probably get in tough with him via Mark.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by driftin180sx:

i read up about someone on a search of this forum who was running 14.6 psi on a built engine but was using a piggyback fuel controller instead of going stand alone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm currious - who was that?

 

[Sensei]

Originally posted by David:
Well, of the three parts you listed, two would need to be upgraded. And the compression is 10.2:1.

[This message has been edited by David (edited 25 April 2002).]

Yes, David you are correct, It was merely a figure of speech, I was emphasizing the high compression.

As for the upgrades... of course when building big power in any motor, you're going to need a lot more than a couple upgrades.
First thing everyone says, "you need to lower the compression ratio". Well this is actually incorrect...when lowering compression you reduce power. This is supposedly done so you can add more boost, which only brings the power back up again.
If you really think about it high compression-low boost or low compression high boost... the total pressure of both forces combined is what determines the engine's limitations. Ultimately, it comes down to correct engine management, (air/fuel, timing, temperature, etc...)So are there any advantages to lower compression? Well, no matter what, the higher compression motor will develop more power and better response, compared to a lower compression motor of the same. As well, the lower compression motor will have more lag and take longer to get into full boost. Running higher boost also develops hotter intake temperatures which means the intercooler efficiency is raised. Even manufacturers of turbo vehicles, over time, have learned to better manage internal combustion properties. Mazda, a perfect example, with their highly sensitive, detonation prone rotary engine has raised their compression ratio , power and even using thinner apex seals over the years.

Well I know there is more to this than what I have just said and agree, it be highly arguable. Just some info to think about for those who may have thought otherwise...

Choritsu-shi

 

[driftin180sx]

Actually, any decent tuner can get 450-500 hp out of a Gen 3 pretty easily.

very difficult and expensive to get that amount of power out of the 13B-REW reliably (by reliably i mean able to last more then 10,000 miles). in essense all it really requires to get power in a FD (assuming R package) is a healthy bridge port, a large single turbo, 3mm apex seals, a stand alone engine management system, and a large front mount IC, with enough fuel to compinsate. but like i said the challange with a FD is getting the engine to last under that amount of power.

First, I think you're on the wrong forum.

i am? im sorry i thought this was the general disscussion section of an nsx forum. or is this meant more as a "go away riceboy" statement.

Second, aftermarket "stand-alone" systems aren't what you think they are.The ability to adjust fuel, timing and maybe V-TEC is only a fraction of what the factory ECU's control. The twin turbos that you mention are not your typical turbochargers... These are Variable Area Turbine Nozzle Turbochargers.Let's not even go there...

first off i know a stand-alone is exactly what i think it means, i just dont know what you think i think it means. a stand alone engine management system replaces the ecu and controls the car's every function which the ecu would have performed, the difference being that you are able to adjust perameters and fine tune it to compensate for a greater array of factors. i also realize plug-in units like the power FC and AEM come preprogramed with near factory settings but still require dyno tunning to have the car run at ir's maximum potential.

When's the last time you looked underneath an NSX... Running 2 GT2835's w/external wastegates??? Think you can shove all that boost through a MR2 type intercooler...good greif! The NSX is a 10.5 to 1 high compression motor w/forged aluminum pistons and also comes with Titanium Rods already, the 3.2 liters already comes with special fiber reinforced metal sleeves as well...up-grade to what???

i have never had a look underneith the nsx, thats why im here to learn. why wouldnt an upgraded mr2 intercooler work? some mr2s are putting out 5-600rwhp and they do in fact make water to air ic's that can handle that amount of air flow.
10.5 to 1 compression? maybe im just an idiot but wouldnt running any more then say 7psi on a 10.5 piston pretty much equal lotso detonation? if the stock internals on the NSX engine are so bullet proof then why do i hear of all these FI NSX's blowing their engines?
even if i were to get in a situation where i would be building an NSX engine i wouldnt be working with the 3.2 liter one anyways.
also i was just throwing the 2835R's as a random turbo off the top of my head, i wasnt implying it would have to be those obviously if i were to actually proceed the correct turbos would have to be sized with the correct ar rating, as well as the intercooler.

Yes the MAF may pose a problem... especially when the NSX doesn't have one. Regardless, the MAF or "stand alone" dosen't determine whether or not you can or cannot use wide-band O2 sensors. Understand, if it is that easy to do it would of been done by now.

then i am assuming that the NSX uses a MAP sensor similar to the FD3S? in tunning a 3rd gen rx-7 the ecu must be remapped after every 3 power upgrades, is this true with nsx's?
some stand alone managament systems support the usage of a wideband O2 sensor so that is indeed a factor

a turbo kit being easy? Do you know how to calculate efficient A/R ratios? Compressor maps? The best intercooler pipe size? The needed frontal area of the intercooler? High turbulent fins or not? What size injectors to use? Exhaust manifolds?

ok... i was saying relitively, and i was refering to a low boost turbo kit. obviously the actual process for making a high hp turbo kit would be difficult. yes i know how to calculate efficient ar ratings, its all explained in corky bells book. i would estimate the proper IC piping size by looking at other 3 liter turbo engines making similar power figures. obviously this isnt the best method but it should work relitively well. frontal area of the intercooler? i wouldnt and dont think it would be feasible to run a front mount intercooler due to the complexity of the piping and tremendious pressure drop. the IC core sizing would be a problem i would need to work out though. injector size again i would start by using a conservative estimate based on other 3 liter turbo engines and increase/decrease based on dyno tuning results.

[This message has been edited by driftin180sx (edited 26 April 2002).]

 

[David]

Originally posted by Sensei:

First thing everyone says, "you need to lower the compression ratio". Well this is actually incorrect...when lowering compression you reduce power.

With a well designed system, you will always make more total boosted hp with lower compression than what you would use with an NA motor. Even if the efective compression ratio works out to be the same, the lower compression motor will make more hp. It is simple physics. In the lower compression motor, more of the compression of the intake charge is done by the turbo; in the high compression motor, more is done in the cylinder. The charge air compressed by the turbo can be cooled down before it enters the cylinders and therefore will have a lower initial temperature at the same effective (net result) compression ratio. Therefore, it will make more power - basic laws of physics.

Good engine management will allow you to run boost on a high compression motor, but you will still make less hp than with the same management on a lower compression motor. If I was starting over on my motor, I would lower the compression to 9:1 and use a slightly larger turbo.

 

[driftin180sx]

also about that nsx using the piggyback, when i skimmed thru last time it seemed like they were using the FMU designation to be something like an S-AFC judging on how they were using it but in second look i dont know http://www.nsxprime.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002670.html

 

[dtobie]

His name is Gerry Johnson and he lives in Stocton, Ca. His current setup is at 15 psi and he has ALL the internal mods you can think of powered by a single Garett with the air/air intercooler mounted on top of the engine and controlled by a stand alone ECU. I bought his Bell TT kit and revamped it for 6.5 psi and swaped the worthless air/air intercoolers for the air/water closed loop design. A rather large radiator is located in the front with two water pumps to keep the water flowing. I plan to use the AEM when the NSX version is ready in June. When the tunning is complete I will post the Dyno sheet. Dan

 

[David]

Gerry is using a Haltech (E6K or F9?) and I use a Motec M48.

[This message has been edited by David (edited 26 April 2002).]

 

[driftin180sx]

i would love to hear more about his setup and to see a dyno sheet

 

[David]

Originally posted by driftin180sx:
i would love to hear more about his setup and to see a dyno sheet

I don't have one of Gerry's, but he would probably send you one if you ask politely- he is a very nice guy.

Here is a dyno from my old setup. This pull is on 92 oct pump gas.

Notice the real advantage of forced induction - I am making more torque at the wheels from 3500 rpm on than the stock motor ever makes.

[This message has been edited by David (edited 26 April 2002).]

 

[driftin180sx]

very impressive. you have a nice broad torque curve going on there. are all FI nsx's this peaky with the power though? what sized turbo(s) were you running?