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Very Odd Engine Problems on my 220k mile '92

Joined
1 February 2008
Messages
128
Location
Dana Point, CA
I'm a long time member (all the way back to David's original BBS!) here and have learned so much from the board about niggling problems on the WONDERFUL car I've been the second owner of for 16 years. However, she's recently giving me a few problems with power delivery, a system the car has never had issues with.


Remember here, I've owned this car for over 15 years as a daily driver, with over 20k track miles, so you long-term owners will understand that I feel like I'm 'one' with this car in terms of feeling the most subtle change.
Here's the problmes I'm having, and what I think is the issue. I need your guys feedback:

1)bouncing speedometer - only happens once and a while (odd), but from what I've read here, I 'm going to replace the speed sensor. This started about 3 months ago.

2)rough idle - Revs kinda bounce high (2k) then low (800), but never stalls, however. I replaced the main relay last year when the engine cut out driving on the freeway (Scary here in OC) and wouldn't start. This idle problem became an issue after number 3 became all the time.

3)Very poor power delivery. Used to get similar symptoms when I used a car wash or after the rain, which people thought was due to the covers over the spark plugs being placed on upside down, but I and my mechanic have checked that is not the case. The after-car-wash issue goes away after the car is driven a while; this problem started occasionally, wasn't related to car washes or rain, and has been getting progressively worse. This problem started 6 months ago with just occasionally, when car was warmed up, but progressed to now all the time. Car feels like it is firing only 3 cylinders when I put it under load in HIGHER gears (esp 5th). Lately, I can't pull away from a stop even in 1st hear without the car subtly bucking and jerking like it does hit 6 cylinders then back to 4 then 6 etc. Now, when I apply power it doesn't feel like I get 6 cylinders of power at low revs EVER. If I drop the car to VTEC range revs > 5k I get full power, like she always gives. At low revs, when I give gas, power never dies to zero, but its more like hitting the rev limiter kind of feeling. Like the torque curve dips badly to some new lower plateau. I wonder if this could be the O2 sensor? Back in 97 I replaced one of the O2 sensors when I had an intermittent power delivery issue and it fixed it. What do you guys think?

4) Non-smooth power delivery. This feels like a transaxle issue. Almost like something between the engine and the rear wheels is loose. Feels a bit like the driveline lash we feel at low rev in too high a gear; like the engine is 'shifting' in its position?? My mechanic says replace all 3 engine mounts. Is this a common need in our cars after many miles and years?

Clutch has 125k miles on it (woohoo, beat my first one at 91k!) with NO slip and very little chatter, but I'm going to replace it when the motor drops to fix these isssues. Gonna add CompTech headers as well to the longtime RM Exhaust. Otherwise car is unmodified save CT sways.

Please O NSX gurus contribute you're 2 cents to this beauty's age marks (She's turned 20 years old this October!- production date 10/91).
 
With the problem first being intermittent and has now gotten progressively worse I would check your ignitors (coil packs) if you haven't replaced them in 220k then I would say that you are probably due. Have your mechanic check them out and see if they are reading within specification (Ohms) or you could just swap them out with a local member (I am just north of you PM me if you like) and see if your car behaves differently.

The "clunking" issue sounds like your mechanic might be spot on with motor mounts and it couldn't hurt to see what kind of condition they're in as rubber doesn't last forever.

Hope this helps and if you need anyone local to check out your car or swap parts you can PM me.

BTW I am no "NSX guru" lol but I think some will chime in with similar suggestions

GL
 
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PM Sent. I can switch out parts with anyone nearby South or Central OC. Any other ideas? I like the electrical possibility, as it seems similar to the electrical issues we see after car washes, but I'm also intrigued by a possible fuel pump slowly going bad I've read about in the forum.... esp. that the power comes on fine at high RPM.
 
I'm no NSX expert, but I'm going to recommend having the TPS tested or replaced. If there's a flat spot in the TPS, it will cause part throttle or cruise bucking. It starts out minimal, and progressively gets worse over time as the TPS is used more frequently in those areas. Under WOT/Full throttle the issue goes away because that range of TPS is rarely used and gives correct signal to the ECU for proper fuel and timing management.
 
Great idea. Anyone know the Throttle Position Sensor part number for a '92? I've looked anywhere.

I'm thinking maybe I should replace ALL the engine sensors while the motor is out on this high-mileage car. Are there any threads on what is recommended that we change on older cars that get the engines dropped for whatever reason? Car is going to get new headers and clutch, so I may as well do the timing belt, Compressor and alternator belts, and the water pump. What else?
 
Great idea. Anyone know the Throttle Position Sensor part number for a '92? I've looked anywhere.

I'm thinking maybe I should replace ALL the engine sensors while the motor is out on this high-mileage car. Are there any threads on what is recommended that we change on older cars that get the engines dropped for whatever reason? Car is going to get new headers and clutch, so I may as well do the timing belt, Compressor and alternator belts, and the water pump. What else?

There are several top NSX mechanics, true gurus :smile:,in California and a well regarded, honest one can't be too far away and judging from your cars mileage you're not afraid to drive a distance if you had to.

A good repair shop, like Driving Ambition, Autowave or Greenlight for example, will first diagnose and address the issues you are having.

Once resolved, THEN, they will develop a strategy for the preventive maintenance and replacement of components that will need attention in the near or not so near future, taking into account your budget and convenience.

I think you will be spending your money more wisely and get better results then scouring threads for what other folks have changed on their cars and following the consensus of well intended responses in regards to the diagnosing of your particular vehicles issues.

Kudos for the many miles you have enjoyed your car!
 
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A good mechanic would plug a scanner capable of checking all the systems and components people here are pointing to before replacing parts you may not need or even be the cause of the condition.

It may be something that is really simple and requires no part replacement at all. I think it is.:wink:

Again, I suggest you take it one of the reknown NSX repair shops in CA., properly diagnose and fix whats really wrong once you are sure what is the cause.
 
+1 on the TPS. All your symptoms point to it.

- Hesitation and sluggishness
- No power in higher gears
- No CEL lights or codes
- Irratic idle

That's my bet.
 
For the last time, test, diagnose, and decifer the data and results before you replace any parts.:cool:
 
Can you please be more specific on this recommendation? Test....there are many parts that cannot be tested or pass the test but fail in real life. (1 of my coils passed the ohm test but was failing)

Since the car is OBD1, diagnosis is limited. Sometimes replacing parts is the easiest thing to do. An ignitor, main relay and coils are parts ANYONE can replace with simple tools and a little patience. It's always best to start with the easy, cheapest parts and rule them out first.

Such as:
Connectors not pushed in all the way.
Vacuum leak.
Old injectors.
Bad grounds.
Weak battery.
Coils.
O2 sensors mixed up.....especially after header install.
Bad fuse.
Car subjected to heavy rain or car wash (EEK!) (wet coils)
Ethanol fuel over 30 days old.
Old fuel filter.
Dirty/incorrect spark plugs.
Failing fuel pump or fuel pump relay. (many many owners state when the fuel pump is replaced all those gremlins go away)








For the last time, test, diagnose, and decifer the data and results before you replace any parts.:cool:
 
Oh, I see. I apologize.

Wasn't looking for, or deserving of, an apology. I just didn't understand the comment because the basis of these forums is to share our knowledge and experience to help others. If all we need to do is take our vehicles to a shop and pay them to diagnose/fix them, then what good is a DIY forum?

Either way, the apology was a nice gesture, especially coming from a Patron :wink:.
 
1)bouncing speedometer - only happens once and a while (odd), but from what I've read here, I 'm going to replace the speed sensor. This started about 3 months ago.

2)rough idle
3)Very poor power delivery.
4) Non-smooth power delivery.

Clutch has 125k miles on it (woohoo, beat my first one at 91k!) with NO slip and very little chatter, but I'm going to replace it when the motor drops to fix these isssues.

You intend to drop the motor to address the issues numbered in the OP as 1-4 and then pull the trans and do the clutch. Right?
Once the motor is on the ground you'll also change the TPS.
I want to make sure I'm understanding your plan.

20k track mile is really impressive to me. You must have killed a pile of tires and brakes in 20k.
Very cool indeed.:smile:
 
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It does look like he just unplugged the TPS and it ran fine which is odd. Care to try it out to confirm for the OP? :tongue:

I do know it will throw a code though when unplugged which puts a big monkey wrench into debugging as the ECU goes into open loop and bypasses a bunch of sensors. Oddly enough I didn't think the TPS was one of the sensors that can be bypassed for open loop operation
 
Johnny,
If I were you, I would stop poking around around on the "unsure" stuffs and get the car to a real mechanic. Plenty of options for you here in Socal. You'll get back on the track quicker..............
 
I Had/Have similar issues with my 232k mile '92 :biggrin:

Hesitation at part throttle/lower revs (usually ~3200) was a bad coil in my case. Replaced offending coil, no more issues. The O2 sensors are a more common culprit for this though.

Fluctuating Idle was the IACV or Fast Idle Valve. Replaced the latter, flushed and replaced the filter screen on the former while I had stuff apart.

I Have a little shudder that's not the clutch when getting in the power at times. I don't notice it when I flat-foot it, but I do when I'm trying to smoothly, but briskly roll into the gas. I can hear it in the exhaust note a little and barely feel it. My motor mounts, as far as I know, are original, so that may also be an issue with me.
 
I've enjoyed all the various recommendations for what to look for/replace and have looked at what the costs of replacing many of the commonly-needed parts after 20 years vs. the marginal labor cost once the motor is dropped anyway for clutch/headers. I studied the board for what guys have needed replaced on cars once they reach 200k miles. My mechanic here in OC is one of the most respected and experienced NSX mechanic in the US at Niguel Motors. I've decided that since the car gets such hard use as a DD and track whip, continued reliability of the single most reliable car I've ever owned (only non-expected failed parts in its entire history : radiator hose, ignition switch, main relay, 02 sensor x 1, coolant overflow tank, master cylinder) is top priority. As a result, and with the moist environment the car lives in at the beach here, I've decided to be proactive in replacing many of the relatively cheaper sensors. All parts ordered from Del Ray Acura unless stated.

Here's what I've got set for Ramon at Niguel Motors:

1) 02 sensors x 2 (Purchased from SOS NTK Replacement 02 Sensors, (UPSTREAM) PAIR-NSX, 1991-96) $134

2) Send out the Injectors for cleaning (24 hr turnaround)
http://www.rceng.com/Fuel-Injector-Cleaning-P43C0.aspx?UserID=5269309&SessionID=Kc52pRoXbXXcrYKtHnPX

3)Throttle Position Sensor—purchased one for a 95+ motor for $30 and I read from d.n. on the board that this gear may turn the opposite way from the OBD I cars (pre 95). Can cause the hesitancy and throws no error codes apparently. Go to test this by UNPLUGGING the TPS sensor (TCS / check engine lights will come on), and see if the car runs fine now. If it does, then either we get luck with the TPS for a 95 I bought actually working OR I have to buy the whole throttle body ($1600) in order to get one for a ’92.
How to remove old one (screws have no heads) and install new one:
http://www.iapdirect.com/pictures/TPS_installation_instructions.pdf

4) Check Throttle cable - slack happens over time. Will have him lube and tighten --> apparently this part is completely OUT of STOCK FOREVER from Honda according to the board 8/2011!!!!

5) Check for Coil Corrosion
A recurring engine sputtering problem, even on a very low mile car, can be caused by coil corrosion. Intermittently, when accelerating in any gear there is a loss of power, feeling like fuel starvation. It cuts out then back in, then out then back in. It's most noticeable during hard acceleration. This happens with TCS and ABS on or off, the engine warmed up, no "Check Engine" light coming on. I have the car in a moist, salty environment so this is a major suspect. If needed, Parts numbers 30521-PR7-A03 and 30520-PR7-A03 for the 2 banks RR and FF, 3 on each, $100 each.

6) Speed Sensor - 78420-SL0-505. Found out this IS the cause of the bouncing Speedo needle. $133

7) All 4 Motor Mounts - Purchased from SOS. $825 vs $1200 from Acura.
8) Knock Sensors x 2 -30530-PR7-A01 purchased to replace. $263.86 total.
9) Timing Belt - 14400-PR7-A01 purchased. $142.
10) Water Pump -19200-PR7-305, Set incl cover purchased. Also purchased a new Water pump Gasket 19222-PR7-A02. $230 total.
11) The NSX 60K Maintenance kit - purchased minus the AC belt recently repl.
(1) 31110-PR7-A01 - Alternator Belt $19
(6) 98079-5614H - Spark Plugs 3.0 $12.45 each, NGK laser platinum.
(1) 17220-PR7-A00 - Air Filter $35
(2) 12030-PR7-010 - VC Gasket Set (Head Cover Gasket) $92 for 2.
(1) 16010-SL0-932 – Fuel Filter Set $32
(2) 90471-580-000- Crush Washer 8mm (Gasket) $2 for 2.
12) Valve Adjustment.
13) TW5 sensor (Water Temp Sensor) 37870-PJ7-003. Only $29. Located on the front cylinder head , just below the VTec solenoid. This sensor can give some strange drivability issues with age , it gets a coating on it from sitting in coolant for many years. You will have to break the once rubber, now hard plastic cover on it to acess the 19 mm base.
14) Replace Brake Pedal Stopper Pad. 46505-SA5-000 There is a little plastic pad that goes between the brake light switch and the brake pedal lever. This pad ages poorly over time, crumbles, falls out into the footwell. Then the brake switch plunger has nothing to compress it when the brake pedal moves up. The brake lights burn continuously, and, if you don’t notice the battery runs down and the car is disabled. part #46505-SA5-000. Purchased for $2.
15) Old Wiper Blades -76630-SL0-307 and 76620-SL0-307. $75 for both. I bought replacements for the non OEM Ramon had placed before because those don't work at speeds over 60mph due to blade lifting off the windshield. If you wonder if that little deflector is needed on the driver side blade, Acura got this right.
16) AC Condenser Fan Motors x 2 - 80151-SL0-A01 purchased ($200 each). Both don't work now.
17) New OEM Clutch -22000-PR7-305 kit purchased. This kit comes with both of the discs, the cover, pilot bearing, and the flywheel. I also purchased the throwout bearing 22810-PR8-003. Total $1465 from ebay.
18) CT Headers - purchased on ebay for $1700. CARB certified important for CA track use :)
19) Rattling from my 14 year-old RM exhaust. Baffle needs repair and the original manufacturer B&B will honor the lifetime warranty. Sending Exhaust out for repair to:
Billy Boat Performance Exhaust
23045 North 15th Avenue
Phoenix, Arizona 85027
(888) 598-3688
20) Trunk Hinge Stopper x2 74826-SL0-000 Purchased for $5, wearing out or missing.

Can you guys think of anything else that should get proactively replaced?

John
 
Sounds like you're gonna keep her for a while. NSX issues I've read about:
- Fuel pump
- Master and Slave clutch cylinders
- Struts, if their OEM
Thanks for including the exhaust info in your post. I have the same one and took the info for future reference.
 
Sounds like you're gonna keep her for a while. NSX issues I've read about:
- Fuel pump
- Master and Slave clutch cylinders
- Struts, if their OEM
Thanks for including the exhaust info in your post. I have the same one and took the info for future reference.

I did the Master cylinder years ago because there was soilage at the mating to the chassis. No problems since.

Fuel pump resistor was bypassed by Ramon at Niguel Motors today; he does it for all the cars including his own and hasn't seen any issues with fuel delivery or fuel pump failures. Kinda makes ya wonder why Honda had a 2 stage fuel pump system.

Struts - agree that these probably should be replaced. Ramon says at this age they're subtly affecting the handling, and he's been right on about subtle handling problems on my car thus far.


Well, update tonight... motor's down. Remember that I have been a loyal longtime owner that has daily driven this car and regularly and religiously adhered to Honda's recommended mileage maintenance + track inspections done by my mechanic. I have pretty meticulous (think Hemming's) records. Problems we've identified on Day One of the Great Refresh of this 20 year old car:
-2 bad coils with corrosion inside, RR bank.
-ALL the hoses are shot. Every guy with a 20 year old+ car go out to the garage right now and just squeeze your hoses on the motor (pick any) and you'll hear all the fibers cracking like fireworks on the 4th of July. They need to go now.
-leaks from various plugs/gaskets/anything rubber. Even the ones that I've replaced before. The rubber anywhere, even internal engine/protected pieces, is all shot.
-2 broken exhaust manifold (OEM) studs are broken. As in, need to be drilled out.
- Fuel injectors look like they came out of the LaBrea Tar Pits. This was quite a surprise to me. Used the recommendation on the board to send out to rceng.com for servicing, flow patterns, and callibration. Only 24 bucks per injector, with 24 hour turnaround to Torrance, CA.
-CV boots are super stiff but not cracking yet: getting done anyhow.
-Intake manifold hasthin layer of black grime inside. This is what made it past the Honda OEM air filters for 20 years in urban climates of Boston/Phoenix/OC/LA. It makes me somewhat ill to imagine the car has been breathing this crap, and even more ill to think "Hey, MY LUNGS were breathing this crap, too!!"
-O2 sensors look like they came out of Mad Max's post-apocalyptic V8 Interceptor. Hard to imagine these were working now or for much longer
-Condensor fan motors are very expensive (>200 bucks each) and are an enormous PITA to replace, requiring the front corners of the car to be dismantled to get them out.
-Motor mounts were ALL shot. As in ALL 4 rubber mounts were completely cracked and loose with huge (think an inch) of play. If you high mileage guys feel the transaxle/motor "shifting" when you come on power, its the mounts. The SOS design is MUCH more durable than the Honda one, which honestly looks like it came out of a Legend ie. designed for comfort NOT durability. Way way too much play in the OEMs even when they aren't busted. If you're over 200k get these done.


Observations of various other bits:
-water pump and timing belt from 9 years ago I could honestly sell on eBay tonight for new. Frighteningly well made by Honda.
-Cam gears look like they came off the factory floor. Seals are gorgeous. My god, those have been spinning for 20 years and 225k miles and look this good??
-you guys were right on about the coils in the moisture of OC... looks like the rubber seals just went to shit and condensation got in.
-the DOHC VTEC C30A is a beauty to behold taken apart. This is a seriously sexy motor for gear heads.
 
Great update. That's basically identical to what I've found with mine, less the gummy injectors. I'm definitely going to take a closer look at my engine mounts now, or just replace them as a matter of course.
 
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