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What are your thoughts on removing ABS unit?

Joined
1 April 2002
Messages
756
Location
Alameda, CA, USA
My ABS pump was making noise quite frequently and finally the ABS light is on now and when I slam on the brakes, it does lock up. I know the solenoids are probably stuck and not worth trying to fix because I have had several flushes with no real improvement.

I am thinking about removing my ABS unit with this:
http://daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/index_browse_part.cfm?focus=2059
and was wondering if anyone else has done so and what are your results. Please post the positives and negatives.

I am familiar with threshold braking because I race Porsche 944 Spec and have a fair amount of track experience.
 
I know some people believe ABS is gods gift to cars but believe me, it's not if you know how to handle the car near its limits on braking and handling.

I am only trying to get feedback for those who have done this "upgrade" but I know some would consider this a "downgrade".

I appreciate your comment but I don't think the ABS will keep my ass from getting into an accident. If you are a good driver and don't get distracted, you will never have to panic brake. :wink:
 
Never is a real long time. You will need to use your brakes for something that no fault of your own and it will be wet and slippery. The ALB (ABS) will let you steer and drive around it instead of hitting it.

I assume you talk on the cell phone and drive distracted.

As the Dali add says, For off road use only.

See: http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98758
 
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Re: What are your thoughts on removing ABS unit?

If you had a really crappy ABS system, I would suggest to pull it, but by most accounts and in many circles the factory NSX 4 channel ABS system would be considered an overall advantage all things considered. Unless it is prohibitively expensive, I think you should fix it.


I know some people believe ABS is gods gift to cars but believe me, it's not if you know how to handle the car near its limits on braking and handling.
I appreciate your comment but I don't think the ABS will keep my ass from getting into an accident. If you are a good driver and don't get distracted, you will never have to panic brake. :wink:

You could be the best driver in the world, but when you find yourself about to collect the car in front of you that just spun out two feet off your front bumper, in inclimate weather trying to avoid three Miatas that just balled up on the start, or paying $500 for a tire that you or your co-driver just flat spotted.... you may come to miss it.

It sounds like you're not close enough to the car in front of you. :biggrin:

My 0.2
 
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John's $0.20 is more than my $0.02, but I would say "ditch it, try it out for awhile, and then if you don't feel comfortable, upgrade to the newer style." :wink:


Dave
 
John's $0.20 is more than my $0.02, but I would say "ditch it, try it out for awhile, and then if you don't feel comfortable, upgrade to the newer style." :wink:

One can also simply pull the fuse, put some events in under various conditions, and make your decision from there. If you eventually decide you can live without it and/or want to go dual master cylinder, you can always upgrade or pull the 15-20lbs or so of dead weight on your next overhaul.

I faced a similar decision at the start of last season. Ultimately I found that their are pros/cons and no one blanket answer is going to be necessarily right in all contexts. Like everything else, much depends on driver, budget, and application.

I can offer my remaining .18 cents from last season:

For road racing in the wet, I see ABS as a definite advantage. Unlike Cali thou, keep in mind that it rains in my neck of the woods 226 days a year, so that specific point may be lost on many in the desert.

Although, I have to say that even in the dry last year I've found that while racing against the older Porches, having ABS can be every bit as much of an advantage in specific instances. Their is a race craft aspect; if you are not afraid to stick your nose into a fight. While trying to take the inside line during late braking, if you can continuously push the old foggies in the non-abs cars into late braking, locking up their inside front lap after lap... that's every bit as much of an advantage on some courses.

Realize the reason many other production race cars remove them is because the factory system is either out-dated, or on account of being prohibited by rules. If an option, some factory cup cars and pro teams will actually go to great costs/lengths to install expensive ABS systems from Bosch and others.

For the vast majority of nsx track enthusiasts, neither of these apply to an NSX at open track days. Frankly, I am suspect that many are developed & calibrated enough as a driver and they are posting consistant enough times to see this as a priority all things considered. I think most have bigger tools they can add to their go-fast toolbox so to speak.


Never is a real long time.
I would try hard to get the ABS working, if it only saves your ass from a crash once it is worth it.

+ 1

If you are going to be tracking/racing out for the next several years or even decades on a regular basis... to think that it "won't happen to you" or that you will never see yourself in panic braking situations strikes me as being penny-wise-pound-foolish. I am not saying that removing your ABS is the wrong answer, I am simply saying that this is probably the wrong reason to justify it.

Even the most talented drivers have found themselves in bad conditions/circumstances. Even the best drivers lock up tires. It's a race track. Everything is fine until it's not fine. We all know that shit happens, and when it does being in an NSX is that much worse. :frown:
 
I think you guys assume that I track my NSX quite often. Well, I use to a few years back when I first started. As I got faster through the years, I told my wife that I needed to upgrade my brakes and that it would cost around $4K, she told me to buy a new car to track and that is when I got into a Porsche 944 and slowly turned it into a spec car so I could eventually go racing with my friends.

For over 2 years now, I race and track only my 944 because it is so much cheaper and I don't have to worry about any contact. Of course I want to avoid contact all together but you guys know what I mean.

I don't plan on tracking my NSX anymore and if I do, it is only in a fun environment where I am not pushing anywhere near 90+%. Heck, I am lucky to even take it out once every two weeks and that is only in dry weather. Now given my scenario, it does make more sense to remove it but I just wanted to find out if the braking felt any firmer, softer, better, worse, etc.
 
ABS is like insurance - along with airbags, seat belts, etc. People remove their airbag-equipped steering wheels, put on racing brake pads that don't get up to optimum temperature during street use, get aftermarket coilovers with high spring rates that make the car skip a little more on bumpy roads, etc. all the time. All of these things subtract some of the safety margin designed in the car via passive or active. And, if you look, most aftermarket products (including coilovers and BBK's) say "for offroad use only."

Whatever you feel comfortable with :wink:

If you do remove the ABS completely, there should be no difference in pedal feel or travel. Now, you do need to know about the difference in braking force front/rear. If you have the stock rotor sizes and are consistent with your pad selection front/rear, then this ABS delete kit will work fine without a proportioning valve. If you have a BBK or mismatched stuff, be extra careful and consider a proportioning valve. Dali's website has a nice display of braking force for different setups.

Oh, if you haven't already, you can pull the ABS motor relay from under the front hood in order to keep the pump from squealing for 2 minutes after startup since the ABS isn't working anyways.

The ABS pump, accumulator, modulator, solenoids and reservoir weighs about 22 pounds. You can also remove the cruise control stepper motor as well for another pound or two.

Dave
 
If you have the money why not do this http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115264 I'm pleased with the result and no more solenoids to worry about.


http://www.scienceofspeed.com/produ...ts/NSX/ScienceofSpeed/NA2_ABS_System_Upgrade/

Wow, $2,100 plus shipping for an upgraded ABS unit which still keeps my stock calipers and rotors. :eek:

Let me think about this. If I spend this much money, I will have an ABS that actually works but my stopping distance will not decrease since I am not upgrading the calipers and rotors.

If I spend about the same amount of money on upgrading my calipers, rotors and pads to http://www.scienceofspeed.com/products/braking_performance_parts/NSX/Racing_Brake/NA2_upgrade/
wouldn't I be able to stop faster and thus, a benefit to my safety?

Accidents can happen just about anywhere and I feel if I am not messing around and pay attention when I drive my car, there really shouldn't be any need for panic braking. Again, I do not drive in wet weather at all with my NSX.
 
My old system was caput so for me do I replace the old technology with the same parts,or do I spend a more say 500$ for a newer system,For me the choice was simple.Listen i used to pull my abs fuse all the time,esp for the track but I did'nt see a tangable benefit so I leave abs active.
 
I've searched here in the past on the same question. Pretty much everyone recommends leaving ABS active or fixing/replacing it with a working unit. That makes sense because it is a safety feature, and in most cases enhances the performance of a car depending on the driver.

BUT, I've removed mine on my daily-driven NSX. It doesn't bother me because I've driven a lot of other vehicles without ABS and feel comfortable doing so. I'm into 60's muscle cars and mine don't have ABS (obviously). If I get in an accident driving those due to braking, it will be a MUCH MORE painful experience than if I total my NSX :frown:


If you do delete your ABS, the DALI kit is simple, cheap, and works great for an already balanced braking system.


Here's what I did, since this information doesn't seem to exist on Prime:

As mentioned, Dali has them here for about $75:
http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/index_browse_part.cfm?focus=2059

Make sure you read the disclaimers. The kit includes two braided SS hoses that each attach to one of the pistons on the master brake cylinder. At the end of each SS hose is a distribution block that splits each piston output to a front/rear brake combo (the ABS does that for us).

You'll need a can of brake fluid, and brake fitting wrenches (10mm) so you don't strip them with an open wrench. Some of mine were on tight, but when putting them back together, don't overtighten.

The ABS is at high pressure, and should be relieved before you work on it. Honda sells a tool to do this ($130), but I just pulled the ABS motor relay from underhood and then exercised the system until the solenoids would no longer pulse on a gravel road. At this point, your ABS light will come on since the motor can't repressurize it. Then, I just took my time removing it (and you have to move the cruise control motor out of the way). It's easiest to have the car on jackstands to access all the ABS bolts/connectors when you do this (you'll have to bleed the brakes later anyway). The ABS pump, accumulator, modulator, solenoids and reservoir weighs about 22 pounds. The master cylinder will keep dripping slowly, so keep it full because you don't want to reprime it. After removing the hoses from the master cylinder, I temporarily put on the new threaded lines and held them high so it couldn't drain. This will give you plenty of time to decide where/how you want to place everything.

You'll need to rebend the front brake lines so you can thread them into the distribution blocks, and you'll have to buy more short tubing (like 8" long) to thread from the blocks into the rear brake line connections. The 3/16" poly coated tubing is easy to bend by hand (you don't need a bender) and hard to kink. Eventually, I'll replace the old front hard lines with new stuff since it's hard to straighten the old stuff perfectly. That's when I'll upgrade brakes.... Inspect/clean the old front flared tubing ends and connect everything up. I sucked out 90% of the old reservoir fluid and put in new stuff (but you'll bleed this out later anyways). Don't use DOT5, I used Valvoline Synthetic DOT3/4 which is cheap, easy to find at local stores, yet works well.

That's it. Bleed the brakes REALLY well. Go for a cautious test drive, come back, and bleed again. I had a lot of air initially after the first bleed, and tapping each of the calipers the second time may have helped because I got some more air out the second time and the pedal feels like before (very firm).

It took me a good 1.5 days, because I wasn't working on this full time (have two little kids), and I also removed the cruise control, TCS, wheel speed sensors, and other ABS/cruise control computers under the dash. So, anyone can do this on a weekend!


Here's a few pictures courtesy of Dali's site (hey, that's my car :tongue:):

abs-killer-kit-installed-antoher-angle.jpg

abs-killer-kit-installed-wow-shot.jpg
 
If you do delete your ABS, the DALI kit is simple, cheap, and works great for an already balanced braking system. Here's what I did, since this information doesn't seem to exist on Prime:

As mentioned, Dali has them here for about $75:
http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/index_browse_part.cfm?focus=2059

Make sure you read the disclaimers. The kit includes two braided SS hoses that each attach to one of the pistons on the master brake cylinder. At the end of each SS hose is a distribution block that splits each piston output to a front/rear brake combo (the ABS does that for us).

Nice write-up on the Dali kit. It appears to still retain the factory brake booster. Certainly as NSXes age and ABS systems fail, more track hounds will find themselves faced with the same decision- fix or ditch.


http://www.scienceofspeed.com/products/braking_performance_parts/NSX/ScienceofSpeed/NA2_ABS_System_Upgrade/
Wow, $2,100 plus shipping for an upgraded ABS unit which still keeps my stock calipers and rotors. :eek:

Interesting read, but you know... I swear that modulator assembly looks like the same one in the later Integra that kids pull-out all the time. I think if we just got the harness we could probably replicate it for about $90, then order the rest of the stock parts at say 35-40 off from your dealer of choice, say do the whole job for half the price.

Just an idea, because that's probably what I would do if mine failed and I decided to upgrade. :cool:


Let me think about this. If I spend this much money, I will have an ABS that actually works but my stopping distance will not decrease since I am not upgrading the calipers and rotors.
If I spend about the same amount of money on upgrading my calipers, rotors and pads to http://www.scienceofspeed.com/products/braking_performance_parts/NSX/Racing_Brake/NA2_upgrade/
wouldn't I be able to stop faster and thus, a benefit to my safety?

Pretty much. Was better braking your objective?

If that's the case, I think you are better off doing it on the cheap, and either finding some used parts and just fixing your ABS issue, or buying the Dali by-pass kit.

...then work on sneaking rotors/pads and new tires, maybe even a BBK purchase past the wife. :biggrin:
 
Me too, grew up driving various high performance cars on the street and track from the 70-80's and never had ABS. I find ABS aggravating under hard braking.

But it has it's advantages in the rain, that's for sure.


BUT, I've removed mine on my daily-driven NSX. It doesn't bother me because I've driven a lot of other vehicles without ABS and feel comfortable doing so. I'm into 60's muscle cars and mine don't have ABS (obviously). If I get in an accident driving those due to braking, it will be a MUCH MORE painful experience than if I total my NSX
 
That is the kit I went with with the addition of the Tilton Bias Proporting adjustment valves.

Works great and I like it a lot more than the ABS system. But I am also used to driving/racing cars without ABS.

If you do delete your ABS, the DALI kit is simple, cheap, and works great for an already balanced braking system.
 
I know some people believe ABS is gods gift to cars but believe me, it's not if you know how to handle the car near its limits on braking and handling.

Show me the foot that is braking better (shorter) without the ABS than the ABS system on (at least) a wet road. :wink: If you drive the car on the road leave it in. If you ever need to prevent a collision a thrown-out ABS only raises your repair costs to a full loss.
 
I see no problem removing the abs system. I have never had a purpose built race car with ABS. Lola, March, Chevron or Porsche to mention a few. Might be a nice feature. Just one more problem, also i have had problems with various ABS systems with "counting errors" as front and rear tire diameter ratios changed with the use of slightly different tires combination's from OEM. Generally disabled system as it thought there was a malfunction.

Just my 2 bits.
 
I would try hard to get the ABS working, if it only saves your ass from a crash once it is worth it.

I agree, I have read other post where people deactivated and then crashed.:cool:
 
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