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What type of suspension is the best for ride and handling...?
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Anyone using the Ground Control coilovers? Seems to be a good price considering they are made to order so you get whatever spring rate you want, they have a lifetime warranty on the Koni shocks/Eibach springs, and include a new upper mount with polyurethane bushings.
I'm currently contemplating going with a set instead of the more common Bilstein shock setup for my street car since I don't get locked into specific ride heights. The biggest question in my mind right now is what spring rates to go with (considering 550|450 lb/in right now)....also I could spend slightly less and get a set of BC's.
http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php/II=952/CA=2
I'm currently contemplating going with a set instead of the more common Bilstein shock setup for my street car since I don't get locked into specific ride heights. The biggest question in my mind right now is what spring rates to go with (considering 550|450 lb/in right now)....also I could spend slightly less and get a set of BC's.
http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php/II=952/CA=2
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I'm running BC/swift. I don't track my car and price really didn't matter to me in my selection but after doing the reading and considering my intended use for the car - fun driving, canyon carving and longer drives, I decided that this would be the most effective set-up for all around performance. I've said this in other posts but I'm a "right tool for the job" kind of guy and if I were tracking the car, well I wouldn't, I'd buy a proper track car, so my approach is always to stay with original intent and design of the car and in keeping with spirit of those that spent so much time creating such a great car.
Honda's intent was for a car that shouldn't be on the track? That it should be driven like a lunatic on the street? Or that it should be driven within the limit of the law? It's a great car for what? I'm totally cool with not tracking but it seems misplaced to suggest that is not consistent with Honda's intent and design.
Some folks try to justify their mediocre purchases in many different ways. Wish they wouldn't try to justify through straight out ignorance though.
Here's a great example of Honda "not" intending for the NSX to be tracked.
http://youtu.be/jjbrFBE4x8A
There's always somebody......My post was meant to convey that a factory built NSX sold out of a dealership is not a race-ready track car in way, shape or form. Can you take said street car to the track? Sure, and it's one way to enjoy a truly great car, but it's not the only way. And after re-reading my post I don't see where I stated that that the car should be driven in an irresponsible or "lunatic" oriented manner so let's not add words that aren't there. The OP was asking for input on suspension changes and the reasoning behind the changes and choices. Mine was given based on my use of my NSX.
So to recap my thinking - A showroom new or original factory car is no more a track ready or race car than the Ferrari Challenge Stradale or Porsche GT3 RS that sit in my garage alongside the NSX are. They are, at most, great cars with a minimalist track-like vibe that allow the owner to have that exhilarating experience of driving a well developed and engineered true sports car, and yes they can be taken to the track just like the NSX. If you're looking for a track car, with track brakes, track suspension, track safety items step up and pick up a Porsche GT3 Cup, or Ferrari 458 Challenge, or whatever flavor floats your boat but don't think that adding a set of random whatever company coilovers revolutionizes the car. You'd be better served with spending money on driving schools and instructors and running the car in factory trim.
I have no need to justify anything, and I'm a long way from ignorant. My purchase was made after a bit of diligence, speaking with some folks that have the same set-up and my intentions for the car which were: 1) to allow me to adjust the ride height for the addition of some modern wheels/tires 2) to improve the ride quality while replacing 24 year old original shocks and springs. Spending more on any other set-up wouldn't yield me any additional results but maybe it would buy me a lower level of ignorance
Even the R in it's factory trim isn't a track car, it's a street car that meets all relevant laws and legal requirements to be on public roads. It's a car you can take to the track for DE and club events that performs better than a non-R package. It is not sufficiently prepped to race so perhaps we have a different view of what tracking means to us and what it requires to do it right. Opinions and viewpoints are what make forums so interesting. If I wanted the experience of track fun I would go one of two ways, the less expensive way is in a Tony kart, the big boy way is in a Porsche Cup and I wouldn't need to worry about swapping parts.
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I think I totally agree with you about the best way to seriously track a car. That is, buy or build a race car. But I would have thought that your examples (CS and GT3RS) are pretty different than a normal street-track car, including the NSX. It was my understanding that the Porsche, in particular, holds up well to track use. I think the turning point, and perhaps your reference to a cup car, comes from a full cage. That is the safety point that seems to offer some serious benefit and also makes a car useless for the street.
I guess my point was not about serious tracking. It was about casual tracking. I believe that is a more responsible way to experience a sports car than "canyon carving," which implies driving well over legal limits for fun. You may decide to do that and I probably would too if I lived somewhere it were possible, but it is hard to construe that as responsible as casual tracking. And I think that casual tracking has to be part of what a manufacturer intends when it designs a sports car.
But regarding the subject of this thread, I value and appreciate your suggestion regarding the BCs. My own NSX will only be casually tracked, and even that may be a bit in the future as I destroyed my last NSX in a track incident. In my case, I would like a suspension that allows for control over ride height and a more comfortable ride than the Koni shocks I have now. My only hesitation with the BC is some talk of limited droop potentially impacting the ride.
I guess my point was not about serious tracking. It was about casual tracking. I believe that is a more responsible way to experience a sports car than "canyon carving," which implies driving well over legal limits for fun. You may decide to do that and I probably would too if I lived somewhere it were possible, but it is hard to construe that as responsible as casual tracking. And I think that casual tracking has to be part of what a manufacturer intends when it designs a sports car.
But regarding the subject of this thread, I value and appreciate your suggestion regarding the BCs. My own NSX will only be casually tracked, and even that may be a bit in the future as I destroyed my last NSX in a track incident. In my case, I would like a suspension that allows for control over ride height and a more comfortable ride than the Koni shocks I have now. My only hesitation with the BC is some talk of limited droop potentially impacting the ride.
semantics....in general the term track car is any car setup for the track,or a street car that sees the track often....a race car is a race car.We have many folks on prime who have a hybrid...ie.. street /track/DE car.With just a few of the right mods the street car that is nsx is a great DE car on par with any of the cars mentioned.I think there were some assumptions made and loose interpretations were used to arrive at the dreaded self sustaining predetermined argument......:biggrin:
No droop issues on the BC. They use an independent height adjustment, so you never have to compress the spring to drop the ride height. My BC's on soft rebound ride firm, but very smooth over all surfaces. In all honestly, I felt a major difference in ride quality coming from my 60-series snow tires back to my 40-series summer tires. My NSX on the snows felt like a caddy, even with my 10kg/8kg springs. The BC uses a big 46mm monotube piston- same as the Bilstein- and it reflects in the ride quality. Still, the dampers are valved more for street comfort- 80% street 20% track according to BC, which is why I think they are a great value for a mostly street but sometimes track NSX. On the track, I experienced about a 1.5 to 2 second lap difference between my street and race damper settings. I felt the most difference in the high speed, 3rd gear corners. Also, FWIW, I came over from the Comptech/Konis and the BC is miles more comfortable at all speeds. They are also durable. I have two winters on them now and the monoball mounts are still silent.
+1 Any car can be a track car. My last time out at HPR, there was a bone stock Subaru Outback on all-seasons having the time of his life out there. Yeah I lapped him 3 times, but each time he pointed me by the guy had a huge grin on his face.
That is what track driving should be about. We get too obsessed with gear and settings and lap times. Just drive your NSX, even one with a crappy old stock suspension and cheap tires. You can still have a blast on the track and be safe.In truth, most NSX owners are not at a skill level to get the most out of the KW, JRZ, Moton or Penske setups. You need access to a race engineer and track R&D time to set them up correctly. You also need to be a good enough driver to communicate feedback to the suspension engineers so that they can fine tune the settings. Think Billy Johnson. This takes a lot of time, money and driving skill. Moreover, these elite dampers are designed to be adjustable for each different track you encounter and different driving conditions. Yes, the KW are tuned well out of the box, but they were tuned for KW's development driver's tastes on their rig and at their test track. Think that is the same as you? Before you purchase a suspension, you should ask yourself what you want it to do for you and what you are capable of doing with it. Don't just buy something because someone told you it was good, or it is expensive (so it must be good, right?) or a pro driver said he/she likes it. Your best bet is to actually drive the options you are considering and then decide.
The RS holds up very well to track use and mine actually has a cage and I use it solely on the street, in fact just returned from a 1300 mile road trip from IA to AZ and found it to be very livable. With that said if you want an RS to be competitive on the track then you still need to swap parts, most folks add full monoball suspensions, motons, steel brake vs. PCCB's, lighter wheels, track only tires, etc., etc. And all of this takes the car to track only duty as far as I'm concerned, and is exactly why I came up with my "tool for the job" outlook, as adding and changing all of this is a huge PITA and I'd rather have a purpose built car that I can stuff in a trailer, take to the track, stuff back in the trailer and forget about it until next time.
The CS, well that's another story entirely. It's actually quite a cost prohibitive proposition to take to the track. With $40K brakes, $3K Ti coil springs that like to break, and single use ball joints (from the factory) it simply doesn't make financial sense to track that car. You can have a spec miata with full safety, tires for the season and maybe even the truck and trailer for a set of a brakes on the Fiat. It is very well suited for a fun drive down highway 1 though, and makes a great noise doing so.
I understand your point and might have even fit the description in your minds eye back when I was 19 or so, riding my sportbikes with nothing more than a pair of Oakley's and flip-flops, but then I grew up, gained a certain measure of mortality and now I have just as much fun out with other enthusiasts for a weekend jaunt through the mountains, canyons or whatever fun roads we can find at a reasonable and legal clip. And to reiterate that's where I find the NSX to be absolutely sublime, even better than the other iron (and carbon) that sits in the garage next to it. I find that turning the car into something else doesn't always make it better, but again it's just my .02 and worth exactly what you paid for it
Enjoy your X the way it makes you happy, we're not all looking for the same thing and we should all extract every ounce of fun out of these great cars that we can. And an interesting tid-bit on the BC/Swift set-up - I had it installed at SOS and I could see the odd look on the tech's face when he opened up the box and saw what I had provided, but he was kind enough not to say anything at that time. Fast forward 6 hours once everything had been installed, aligned and dialed in once I came to pick the car up. The guys handed me my old set-up and were talking about how surprised they were with the suspension and that they had fully expected a less than pleasing result. After chatting a bit we all agreed that the Swift spring option really brings out the best in this particular set-up. They also asked me what other option I had considered and when I told them Moton's they asked me "why"? My point exactly, as I would not see any benefit over the BC's whatsoever for my intended use of the car, just as I wouldn't see any difference with any of the KW, Bilstein, Fox or other variants either.
Honcho - found the same to be true about the BC's after about 1K street/fun miles. And excellent rest of your post. I found that driving instructors and schools are worth their weight in gold vs. the same money spent on parts without the skill.
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Do you run the same 10k front / 8k rear springs that Honcho runs?
Thanks for taking the time to share all your other thoughts and experiences.
I do and was actually convinced to go that route from my reading here on Prime and after speaking with the folks at Circuit Racing where I purchased them.
I really wish SOS would start supporting this suspension. It is such a great value for the NSX. I realize a lot of vendors and owners probably look down their nose at the BC because of the price, but have they actually driven one? Maybe your experience will convince Chris to start selling the kit? I had a chance to track a NSX with Motons back to back with my BC's and there is a difference, but not a $5,000 difference.
As for instructors, totally agree. And, it is also critical to have the right instructor.
Kw v3. I never regret it.
I feel most people will defend their setup as that is the one they bought and tuned to their liking. Driving another persons car with a suspension set up to their driving style versus your own style will give you a vague idea at best on that suspension. This becomes really apparent when you look at the spring rates people use (OEM-1000lbs) as well as sway bar sizes, alignment settings, etc. The ride quality versus the handling of a suspension will vary depending on what it is set up for. Spending more money for the sake of it to have the best bench racing suspension doesn't mean it will be the best because you will not have the team of engineers working with you monitoring all the data to make the fine tune adjustments that make it a better performing suspension.
Yeah, I'm looking at doing the same thing, but maybe the S version? At 130K my suspension definitely needs attention. I do mainly "spirited " street/highway driving now, maybe two track events a year. I've gone to coilovers before on a more track-oriented car (911) and I really don't want to invest the time in adjusting ride heights, damping and spring rates. Also like the fact that they're OEM and already tuned to the car - seems like the perfect upgrade for me and the cost is right in there with KWs. Comments welcome :->
They won't sell something that they can't make any money on and I don't blame them. Too many places blow these out. I don't think it is a matter of quality.
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Type R is $4400. For that kind of dough I think there is better out there.
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Paul, as you know i'm a supporter of the BC coils for the casual NSX driver. They get you about 70% there which is where most NSX drivers do 100% of their driving. It is still a mediocre suspension in the whole scheme of things but better than the Megans and Tein Flex/RA i've tried. BC did their best to valve the shim stacks with the technology they've got to work with. Is that ok? Sure it is... but once you truly start progressing in your track days skills (or even calibrate that butt dyno better) you'll realize the limitations of the BC. I've looked into them extensively and almost bought them maybe 10 months before you did. I then had the opportunity to track in another NSX recently and it solidified my decision to not get them. For example, once you're well into a session they became inconsistent and the damping and spring rates are just too soft for even NT-05s whereby even at the stiffest damping setting was not enough to control the wheel. It felt like too much compression and not enough rebound at the limit. Again, i'm not saying they are bad.. I just wanted more sophistication - at least to a level like the KW V3 which is also not the greatest NSX suspension but pretty good if the springs are stiffer. Ohlins DFV (aka Super Ohlins from Japan), JRZ, KW Clubsports or V3, Bilstein (I forget their racing coilover line once available for the NSX) and Motons are good to great in terms of "off-shelf" coilovers. Even the DG5s on my car now are probably just under these (mediocre to good) but are still the best tuned single adjustables I've been on albeit the valving technology is old by today's standards. I also paid much more than the BCs too. It's all relative. One of the biggest flaws with the online world of suspension reviews is that the person reviewing can only speak to their universe and their experiences. Myself included. What one guy says is good might not really be so good? Again, myself included.
There's a bad, mediocre, good overall performance for the NSX. There's also a bad, mediocre, good overall in terms of value. The BCs are great in terms of value but i'd consider them mediocre in the overall available inventory for the NSX and people get offended when I say that.
In any event, you've got some really sweet parts on your car. Many of which are well thought out and of good quality. It does tell me there is something to the BCs if you recommend them, but I implore you to try on one of these other coilovers. Sometimes the versatily is the reason for the increased cost.
Even with a 1000 pound spring and the worst dip or pothole, my suspension travels once. Up, down, Poom-poom front and rear and it is done. I sat in an NSX with similar spring rates and some teins, and it felt like I was on a Pogo stick. Up down, up down, up down.... one bump and three bounces. You go down the highway and can see the whole car body bounce with the undulations in the road. That's the biggest difference I have seen on the road and experienced. Same spring rates, totally different results. As bad as that bounce is on the road, I imagine on the track it leads to a serious unsettling on the car and a loss of traction. I know there are good and bad values as Ryu is saying. But to a certain extent you also do get what you pay for. If you cheap out here, and spend money on wheels or a wing or something else, you've taken away from the NSX's greatest asset. I say try to get the most you can afford here. It changes the whole car.
Correct, but Type S is $2400.
Regan my brotha I am not offended at all! I actually agree with what you said, and experience the same effect on the track at the end of the session. They got a little "vague" on the last couple of hot laps on a 95F track day. But again, that is expected, since BC told me these are really a street coilover system. Unfortunately, they won't make the ER Type for the NSX, but I imagine it would be closer to what you are looking for. I've always said this suspension is excellent as a value proposition for the mostly street, occasional track NSX. Nowadays, with a 1 year old I am chasing around, I'm lucky to get to the track more than 3 or 4 times a year. As you indicated, A LOT of research went into this decision and my other "final" decision was the JRZ RS system. But, after talking to some folks, I realized the JRZ was far more suspension than I needed- it would work for what I wanted to do, but I would be leaving a lot of unused capacity on the table. If, however, I start pushing my NSX beyond its limits at the track and move into the 10-20 HPDE sessions per year range, I may just get the JRZ. Or, I may have Feal Suspension rebuild and revalve my BC. I am fortunate enough to be in a position where cost really isn't a factor for me for any of this stuff. Instead, I am interested in value, which goes back to the main question you should ask: what you want it to do for you and what you are capable of doing with it.
I did track a NSX with Motons and, as noted earlier, it was better in all phases- especially the high speed corners. But, that car was pretty much a full race car. I also have done a few laps in a KW V3 equipped NSX, and it too was better on the track than my BC's. But, the BC, Moton and KW all felt the same on the street.
So true. I rode in a Tein Flex NSX and it was horrible. I can't believe Tein gets the money they do for those systems. My BC's travel once over speed bumps. Up, down , poom-poom, done.
If you can even get it. Last I heard, no longer available.
The Tein SRCs are actually quite good. I think Tein as a company got caught up playing the cheap coilover game and hurt their image at the same time. A set of tuned SRCs have been incredible in others cars i've experienced like the S2000 and the BRZ. The valving can be setup to be quite sophisticated but I don't believe they come tuned out of the box. Buyers need to specify a baseline spec.
Science of Speed says they can still get the S units... maybe I need to confirm.
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