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Will the plane take off?

Let me tell you guys a story about a treadmill. True story...

There's this guy at my work. He's a big healthy guy, thinks the world of himself. Him and one of my best coworker friends are mortal enemies. Goes to the gym at my work one day with 2 of his friends, one of whom is good friends with my best coworker friend. He starts talking smack about his workout routine while one of the guys is running on the treadmill. Then he says to one of the guys "you are doing it all wrong, you're slow, get off, let me show you how to do it."

Friend jumps off, and he jumps onto a running treadmill. Well, treadmill scoots him backwards off the treadmill onto his knees and his face and arms land onto the belt part of the treadmill. Every time he tries to get up, he barely lifts his face off the belt, his hands get shoved from the middle part of the treadmill toward the back and his face plows back onto the belt. This goes on for several iterations, he's completely helpless until one of the other guys hits the stop button for him and probably saves his life. He stands up and he's got these skinned burn marks on his forearms, forehead, nose, and side of the face. Utterly embarrassed, all he could do was walk outside and light up a cigarette. While outside, even though it was a dangerous situation, all the other guys could do was laugh.

My best coworker friend hears this story about this guy the next day and told another coworker, a real serious old guy. He giggles and said that he saw the guy with the strangest looking marks on his face and now it all makes sense.

I'm a runner and I have a healthy respect for the treadmill now.
 
KSXNSX said:
It's almost comical that you have a definitive answer to a question that is impossible to answer based only on the information given.
Click to expand...

Only if the question reads "if the belt matches the speed of the wheels."

If the question reads "if the belt matches the speed of the plane" then it is entirely possible to answer the question with a definitive answer.

It appears to me you are arguing the former, while I'm arguing the latter, so it goes without saying we have two different thoughts on the answer.

I chalk this up to different variations to the plane/treadmill question. It happens.

Can we go back to discussing the merrits of the Sonicare and Oral B toothbrushes now? :tongue:
 
Vega$ NSX said:
That is not the version that I have seen or read. The version I have read clearly states that the belt matches the speed of the plane, in which case, everything I've stated is correct.

Now, to your version, where the belt matches the speed of the wheels. If the question is phrased that way, then it is unanswerable because it is known as a dichotomy paradox or zeno (xeno) paradox. The dichotomy paradox states that if I want to get somewhere I need to get halfway there first. And from that point I need to get halfway to my destination. A from that point I need to get halfway there. And so on and so forth. So will I ever reach my destination if I keep only getting halfway first?

The point is, the answers go to infinity since you can always split the distance by one half. And thus becomes a paradox, because once you introduce infinity to the equation, it becomes a theoretical concept. You never get to finish the answer. It goes to infinity.

So in regards to the plane/treadmill, the same paradox applies. The wheel always "attempts" to go 1 mph faster than the treadmill and the treadmill catches up in speed. But then the wheel tries to go 1 mph faster, and again the treadmill catches up. This goes on to infinity. Infinity isn't a number, it's a concept. Thus there is no answer because the analysis keeps going on forever. It is "unfinished" to say the least.

So in response to your statements. If the question is was phrased as you put it, there is still not two outcomes as you stated. There still is only one outcome. We just don't know what it is because the answer will never be finished.

But again, I do not believe the original question was a theoretical, cerebral and philosophical as this. Again, the version I have read, and many others, was the belt matching the speed of the plane, not the wheels. And as you can see has it's own set of debates. Yet it has a correct answer and a pretty technical explanation behind it. It seems to be a much more satisfying brain teaser.

The question in the form you pose is purely an exercise in theory and philosophy. It's another form of "what's the sound of one hand clapping" type question, where there is no answer. It's not that the answer or interpretation is debatable, it's that there is no answer. While I can't say for sure, I don't think someone would pose such a question with technical details, if all they were looking for was some buddist meditation and zen-like enlightenment. Why not then ask, "what is infinity?", why go to the details of describing such a mechanical system? Therefore, it is my opinion that the version describing the treadmill matching the speed of the wheels, is an incorrect variant of the original question.
Click to expand...

LOL. Enjoy your riddle.
 
THE STIG said:
Yo mama so fat, she can eat the whole internet.
Click to expand...

Yo mama so fat she got on the plane, made the wheels explode, fuselage cracked in half and the treadmill stopped. Plane caught on fire and when she landed on the burning jet fuel she put the fire out with her jelly.

Yo mama so dumb, she thought the plane would take off...

Who's next???
 
Vega$ NSX said:
Now, to your version, where the belt matches the speed of the wheels. If the question is phrased that way, then it is unanswerable because it is known as a dichotomy paradox or zeno (xeno) paradox. The dichotomy paradox states that if I want to get somewhere I need to get halfway there first. And from that point I need to get halfway to my destination. A from that point I need to get halfway there. And so on and so forth. So will I ever reach my destination if I keep only getting halfway first?

The point is, the answers go to infinity since you can always split the distance by one half. And thus becomes a paradox, because once you introduce infinity to the equation, it becomes a theoretical concept. You never get to finish the answer. It goes to infinity.

So in regards to the plane/treadmill, the same paradox applies. The wheel always "attempts" to go 1 mph faster than the treadmill and the treadmill catches up in speed. But then the wheel tries to go 1 mph faster, and again the treadmill catches up. This goes on to infinity. Infinity isn't a number, it's a concept. Thus there is no answer because the analysis keeps going on forever. It is "unfinished" to say the least.
Click to expand...

To further illustrate my point, I’ll give you guys a reverse paradox. (Bear with me and follow me through this. The end result will blow your mind… or not). Here is the same paradox, now posed in reverse so you can better understand it.

Suppose I had an NSX with unlimited power, that could go as fast as it wanted; unlimited speed. But I put its rear wheels on a drum, like a dyno. But the drum would spin backwards as fast as the car (not the wheels) was moving forwards. So if the car was moving forwards at 10 mph, the drum would move backwards at 10 mph. If the car was moving forward at 20 mph, then the drum would move backwards at 20 mph. So the paradoxical question is how fast is the drum moving? On one hand the NSX is trying to move forward at infinite speed, so the drum is moving at infinite speed backwards to keep the NSX from moving anywhere. But if the NSX is not moving anywhere, then the drum speed must be zero since it only spins as fast as the NSX is moving. So which one is it? Is the drum moving at infinity or zero?

One possible answer is both.

Both? Huh? Welcome to Quantum Physics/Mechanics/Theory. In Quantum Theory, the correct answer is that the drum is spinning both at infinity and zero at the same time. How can that be? It’s because it’s the intent or observation that determines the true value of the drum. Say this is a real NSX and the real top speed is 170 mph. So the theoretically the drum is spinning at 170 mph or 0 mph to keep the NSX from moving. If it is my intent to floor it, then the drum is spinning at 170 mph. However, if my intent is to not touch the gas, then the NSX is just sitting there and the drum doesn’t spin at all. Two correct answers occupy the same space at the same time.

So how does Quantum Theory explain this? One theory is that both answers do exist, because they exist in two separate universes. Everything in the two universes are exactly the same except in one universe, the drum is spinning at 170 mph and in the other universe the drum is not spinning at all. In fact the theory goes on to state that there are an infinite number of universes (called a Multi-verse), with an infinite number of outcomes for and infinite number of situations. All of these universes are linked so that effects in one universe affect all other universes. In this way, quantum teleportation, dual states, etc. is possible.

Objects having two values at the same time? Infinite number of infinite universes? Answers changing based on intent or observation? Trippy huh? Have I blown your mind yet?

Oh, and yo mama's so fat, that when she jumped off the treadmill and into the air she got stuck.

And yo mama's so wrinkled she needs to screw her clothes on.

And yo mama's so old, when she cuts herself she bleeds dust and jesus signed her yearbook.

And yo mama's so fat, that when she wears high heels, she strikes oil.

And yo mama's so fat, when she goes to the beach, the tide comes in.

And yo mama's so bald, when she wears a turtleneck sweater, she looks like a busted condom.
 
Vega$ NSX said:
To further illustrate my point, I’ll give you guys a reverse paradox. (Bear with me and follow me through this. The end result will blow your mind… or not). Here is the same paradox, now posed in reverse so you can better understand it.

Suppose I had an NSX with unlimited power, that could go as fast as it wanted; unlimited speed. But I put its rear wheels on a drum, like a dyno. But the drum would spin backwards as fast as the car (not the wheels) was moving forwards. So if the car was moving forwards at 10 mph, the drum would move backwards at 10 mph. If the car was moving forward at 20 mph, then the drum would move backwards at 20 mph. So the paradoxical question is how fast is the drum moving? On one hand the NSX is trying to move forward at infinite speed, so the drum is moving at infinite speed backwards to keep the NSX from moving anywhere. But if the NSX is not moving anywhere, then the drum speed must be zero since it only spins as fast as the NSX is moving. So which one is it? Is the drum moving at infinity or zero?

One possible answer is both.

Both? Huh? Welcome to Quantum Physics/Mechanics/Theory. In Quantum Theory, the correct answer is that the drum is spinning both at infinity and zero at the same time. How can that be? It’s because it’s the intent or observation that determines the true value of the drum. Say this is a real NSX and the real top speed is 170 mph. So the theoretically the drum is spinning at 170 mph or 0 mph to keep the NSX from moving. If it is my intent to floor it, then the drum is spinning at 170 mph. However, if my intent is to not touch the gas, then the NSX is just sitting there and the drum doesn’t spin at all. Two correct answers occupy the same space at the same time.

So how does Quantum Theory explain this? One theory is that both answers do exist, because they exist in two separate universes. Everything in the two universes are exactly the same except in one universe, the drum is spinning at 170 mph and in the other universe the drum is not spinning at all. In fact the theory goes on to state that there are an infinite number of universes (called a Multi-verse), with an infinite number of outcomes for and infinite number of situations. All of these universes are linked so that effects in one universe affect all other universes. In this way, quantum teleportation, dual states, etc. is possible.

Objects having two values at the same time? Infinite number of infinite universes? Answers changing based on intent or observation? Trippy huh? Have I blown your mind yet?
Click to expand...

Are you talking about multiverse? Do you believe in string theory?


Either way, this has nothing to do with the airplane taking off or not. You are talking about the relativity theory, and you are describing it wrong. You are breaking the space time continuum. If what you said was true, then we need a Flux capacitor to make the air plane take off.
 
Last edited:
Vegas, come on, let's get original here...

Yo mama's so stupid, she gave Mark Johnson her credit card number.

Yo mama's so stupid, she patented DEI (Direct exhaust injection), got sued, and lost.

Yo mama's so ugly, she entered a beauty pageant and came in last place behind a Skyline GTR and a Pontiac Aztek.

Yo mama's so dumb, she installed an HID kit without relays. :biggrin:
 
Malibu Rapper said:
Vegas, come on, let's get original here...

Yo mama's so stupid, she gave Mark Johnson her credit card number.

Yo mama's so stupid, she patented DEI (Direct exhaust injection), got sued, and lost.

Yo mama's so ugly, she entered a beauty pageant and came in last place behind a Skyline GTR and a Pontiac Aztek.

Yo mama's so dumb, she installed an HID kit without relays. :biggrin:
Click to expand...

Yo mama so weak, she needs to take steroid to watch a baseball game. (the office)
 
KSXNSX said:
I said I believe the author intended for the plane to remain stationary, no matter how poorly he set up the problem.
Click to expand...

Do you know what a riddle is?

The whole riddle is this: Does the plane move. We all know what happens next (because if it moves, it flies...but the whole argument is if it actually moves or not!)


Are you on drugs?
:wink:
 
Malibu Rapper said:
Let me tell you guys a story about a treadmill. True story...

There's this guy at my work. He's a big healthy guy, thinks the world of himself. Him and one of my best coworker friends are mortal enemies. Goes to the gym at my work one day with 2 of his friends, one of whom is good friends with my best coworker friend. He starts talking smack about his workout routine while one of the guys is running on the treadmill. Then he says to one of the guys "you are doing it all wrong, you're slow, get off, let me show you how to do it."

Friend jumps off, and he jumps onto a running treadmill. Well, treadmill scoots him backwards off the treadmill onto his knees and his face and arms land onto the belt part of the treadmill. Every time he tries to get up, he barely lifts his face off the belt, his hands get shoved from the middle part of the treadmill toward the back and his face plows back onto the belt. This goes on for several iterations, he's completely helpless until one of the other guys hits the stop button for him and probably saves his life. He stands up and he's got these skinned burn marks on his forearms, forehead, nose, and side of the face. Utterly embarrassed, all he could do was walk outside and light up a cigarette. While outside, even though it was a dangerous situation, all the other guys could do was laugh.

My best coworker friend hears this story about this guy the next day and told another coworker, a real serious old guy. He giggles and said that he saw the guy with the strangest looking marks on his face and now it all makes sense.

I'm a runner and I have a healthy respect for the treadmill now.
Click to expand...

My response right at the moment he was on the ground would be...Dude, if that the right way to do it I will just keep doing it the wrong way because that looked painful.
 
Vega$ NSX said:
Again, this is NOT a car. That is the source of yours any many other's confusion. A car uses it's wheels to generate forward movement.

That is NOT the case with a plane. The plane uses thrust from an engine to move forward.
They are not the same and if you can't understand why then you will not be able to see why a plane can move forward on a treadmill. It is the same reason a plane can move foward in space and a car can't.
Click to expand...

AGREED!
If the plane were a glider and the launching mechanism were a wheel-driven car pulling it...then the converyor would be germane and the car would not move so the glider would not fly.
 
THE STIG said:
Are you talking about multiverse? Do you believe in string theory?


Either way, this has nothing to do with the airplane taking off or not. You are talking about the relativity theory, and you are describing it wrong. You are breaking the space time continuum. If what you said was true, then we need a Flux capacitor to make the air plane take off.
Click to expand...

These are just theories. I acknowlege the concept of quantum mechanics, multiverse, string theory etc. but I have no idea knowing if they are accurate or correct or not.

At any rate, these theories are anything but the relativity theory. Quantum theory uses many concepts of the relativity theory but deviates, or rather, goes further to explain certain unexplainable phenomenon and concepts. Like the particle/wave experiement.

I wasn't using this to explain the answer to the plane/treadmill answer. I was trying to explain how some questions can be posed such that under conventional explainations, there is no way to achieve an answer. However, in alternate theories, such as quantum theory, there is an answer, as unintuitive as it may seem.
 
Steve- I love the avatar lol.....and no the plane won't fly because I said so. :biggrin: :tongue:
 
da3dalus said:
holyfail.jpg
Click to expand...

http://dsc.discovery.com/video/?pla...013704&lineupId=1283221956&titleId=1347908538

:D
 
steveny said:
Someone, anyone? Where is skyguy I bet he'd do it
Click to expand...

Uhhhh.....Sure, I'll do it. Haven't flown the 747 in a while but if I can start it, I can fly it! :biggrin:
 

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