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Economy: Turns out, we really ARE screwed!

This is why I started working out hard about 1.5 years ago :)


I have to say that 95% of the people are stupid and I am glad I can be at home and not have to hear crap like this at a job.
 
I have to disagree here. If anything, we've just proven without any shadow of a doubt what kind of society and lifestyle in unsustainable. A society built on debt will fall. Ours is in the process. Its got nothing to do with socialism and EVERYTHING to do with debt.

We might help ourselves to drop the ego and look to solutions from other countries who have buffered against the economic slowdown elsewhere.

One of the best things about this nation is that we are built on the best ideas of many people and places around the world. It would behoove us not to forget that moving forward as we look for a solution to these problems IMHO.

da3dalus, let me offer a few points. First, where did this debt you keep mentioning come from? It originated from forced lending beyond what was economically viable. Banks considered the risk too high for the return, so the government took the "risk" side out of the equation. The aftermath and resulting fiascos can all be tied back to the government distorting the mortgage market. All the CDS etc. was derived from that distortion, it was a one sided trade.

Drop the ego and look towards other nations that have done better? I hope you aren't mentioning Europe in any way, they are much worse off than us. My personal opinion is the EU will not be around much longer due to the friction of their united financial system. Some developing countries are doing better but developing vs developed countries respond differently not to mention their equity values have been decimated by anyone's standards.

The vast majority of growth that has occurred in the last fifty years, the greatest expansion of wealth in human history several fold, was due embracing capitalism with an encouraging but careful government. Even within communist regimes capitalism can thrive. Look at Europes unemployment rate and GDP growth. I think your ideas are based more on philosophy than reality.
 
da3dalus, let me offer a few points. First, where did this debt you keep mentioning come from? It originated from forced lending beyond what was economically viable. Banks considered the risk too high for the return, so the government took the "risk" side out of the equation. The aftermath and resulting fiascos can all be tied back to the government distorting the mortgage market. All the CDS etc. was derived from that distortion, it was a one sided trade.

Drop the ego and look towards other nations that have done better? I hope you aren't mentioning Europe in any way, they are much worse off than us. My personal opinion is the EU will not be around much longer due to the friction of their united financial system. Some developing countries are doing better but developing vs developed countries respond differently not to mention their equity values have been decimated by anyone's standards.

The vast majority of growth that has occurred in the last fifty years, the greatest expansion of wealth in human history several fold, was due embracing capitalism with an encouraging but careful government. Even within communist regimes capitalism can thrive. Look at Europes unemployment rate and GDP growth. I think your ideas are based more on philosophy than reality.

I'm not just talking about forced lending and mortgage debt. I'm talking about the backbone of our ENTIRE society. We don't buy a car, we take out a loan, we don't buy a TV, we take out a loan, we put it on credit, gov'ts can't pay for their new sewer improvements off of tax revenue, create bonds and use debt to finance it...

Our entire gov't has run this country off of selling debt to other nations. That is the debt that is going to ruin this country. We don't pay for shit. Our treasury creates money out of thin air to settle our debts as it is. Thats what i'm talking about.

The greatest wealth growth in 50 years? It wasn't REAL wealth. It was debt created wealth. It was people (and gov'ts) spending beyond their means. If it was real and it was sustainable we wouldn't be in the cluster f**k we are in right now. Other nations wouldn't be rejecting the opportunity to by our debt anymore if they thought it was worth anything and still sustainable.

Why do you think the 700B bailout was specifically re-written to allow foriegn gov'ts to get paid off? Because you don't want to piss off china and the rest of the world be defaulting on trillions in loans. Thats the reality of the situation.

Don't get me wrong, i'm with you and I agree with what you're saying. The EU doesn't have the living standards we do in many respects, but my point is that if we were structuring our finances in the same way european countries did we wouldn't have 3 cars, and a brand new 60k escalade in the driveway of the guy make 45k a year. I think other countries live within their actual means. I think we have gotten used to living outside our means by way of debt use.
 
I wasn’t actually promoting our system (that’s an American trait), I was just saying that things are not so bad. You will pull through. There are worse things happening than you have.

I was only saying that taxes can go up a lot more before you have problems. Gas prices (taxes) can go up more too, we pay 4x as much and nobody stops driving here. And we are seeing more of those big SUVs here too. So it’s not so bad.

Most of you who flame the system here are missing the point, lambasting the “socialistic” “hell” system here. You are too blind to see that you have swallowed the American koolaid. It tasted good, but now you have serious hallucinations.

The high tax system here works somewhat because it drives business and entrepreneurial people to be very sharp and careful and gives them (and only them, not the masses) a chance to do something. At the same time keeping the masses happy.

The masses neither have the tax knowledge nor the will to have 3 cars and a boat, but they still have the feeling they are accomplishing something, however small or big.

They just want to have a comfortable life. That is here.
And, make no mistake (don’t let that kookaid blind you) that’s what most American people really want too.

But Americans have been brought up to blindly believe in a dream. But that’s all it is, a dream. That they can be an astronaut or president, whatever, a dream. So when life gets them down and they only have 3 cars and 1 boat, they get frustrated and unhappy.

Here, they have not been brought up to want it all. They generally are happy with what they have. (and they still have quite a lot)

All over the world most of the people are cows and they want to be happy in their comfortable fields being milked. The cows don’t riot, don’t dream about being astronauts, don’t carry guns and are available to work and pay taxes. And don’t day dream about flying.

If the owners of the cows (entrepreneurs) invest a little in keeping the fields comfortable, and are left alone to get on with making money, and there are plenty of rich people here in this “socialistic hell”.
Plenty of Ferraris, Porsches, etc. where the hell do you think they are made, in Detroit?
And what roads and drivers do you think they are made for, American “autobahns”?
Come on.

Life is good here in Europe. It is not a socialistic hell. We don’t blindly flame others’ systems. We try to understand them and see how they do it.

And driving is good, we have freedom from cops and great cars that you don't have. And we have places like the Ring etc.:tongue:

And we try to learn from the last century, and what we have learned is that compromise and understanding and being a little “wimpy” is better than trying to be like some comic book action hero and hitting the concrete because you think you can jump off building and fly.

And we don’t actually call it socialism, we call it ”responsible” and “humane”. Just like “wimpy” is actually “modesty” and “sensible”.

You guys in the States don’t have it so bad, this recession/crash will hurt everybody, but come on, pay the price to keep the cows happy, and there won’t be riots in the streets.
Continue to ignore your “social” responsibilities and the cows could learn to use pitchforks.
Jeez, this thread has really wandered…sorry :rolleyes:

I find your attitudes and opinions extremely narrow minded and stereotypical; Not every American is a gun packing, SUV driving, credit monster. Remember, that this is a country thousands of miles wide w/ 300,000,000 people from all over the globe.....Here in California, a big chunck of the housing bust/credit crisis was facilitated by recent immigrants.
 
Yes, I also think there is a lot of narrow mindedness and stereotype in this thread.

Also a lot of interesting comment. Like usual.:smile:
 
Yes, I also think there is a lot of narrow mindedness and stereotype in this thread.

Also a lot of interesting comment. Like usual.:smile:

You want to fly over and hang out for a weekend of gluttony? :D

We can go four wheeling in the H3 and pop some deer with the shotgun.
 
I'm not just talking about forced lending and mortgage debt. I'm talking about the backbone of our ENTIRE society. We don't buy a car, we take out a loan, we don't buy a TV, we take out a loan, we put it on credit, gov'ts can't pay for their new sewer improvements off of tax revenue, create bonds and use debt to finance it...

Our entire gov't has run this country off of selling debt to other nations. That is the debt that is going to ruin this country. We don't pay for shit. Our treasury creates money out of thin air to settle our debts as it is. Thats what i'm talking about.

The greatest wealth growth in 50 years? It wasn't REAL wealth. It was debt created wealth. It was people (and gov'ts) spending beyond their means. If it was real and it was sustainable we wouldn't be in the cluster f**k we are in right now. Other nations wouldn't be rejecting the opportunity to by our debt anymore if they thought it was worth anything and still sustainable.

Why do you think the 700B bailout was specifically re-written to allow foriegn gov'ts to get paid off? Because you don't want to piss off china and the rest of the world be defaulting on trillions in loans. Thats the reality of the situation.

Don't get me wrong, i'm with you and I agree with what you're saying. The EU doesn't have the living standards we do in many respects, but my point is that if we were structuring our finances in the same way european countries did we wouldn't have 3 cars, and a brand new 60k escalade in the driveway of the guy make 45k a year. I think other countries live within their actual means. I think we have gotten used to living outside our means by way of debt use.

No doubt debt has been out of control lately, but that's not a systematic failure. It will flow in a cycle like everything else. Our savings rates will slowly adjust back to the historical mean and debt will be reduced. The generation from the Great Depression were the most hardcore savers we have ever known, 99% of them scared to death of the stock market. Another generation will be born out of this crisis. We saw the peak in the debt cycle, it was never the norm. And as far as our debt obligations go as a nation, that's an entirely different ball game. That's a government fallacy, not a people's. My guess is that will be eventually corrected as well when the need comes. The removal of bush and the republicans is the democratic way to aheive this objective at least in part, as ironic as that is.

Several heavily populated developed countries have had unparalleled MASSIVE REAL per capita growth, debt or no debt. The last 10 years were the ones that were fueled by debt in developed countries, not the last 50 years. That's a huge oversimplication/overgeneralization that ignores extremely impressive growth around the world.
 
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you want to fly over and hang out for a weekend of gluttony? :d

we can go four wheeling in the h3 and pop some deer with the shotgun.

lol
What about the boat?:biggrin:
 
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I just think that the system is broken. Just yesterday this article was published: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/JK19Dh01.html

"TOKYO - Japanese economists, increasingly concerned that the United States might seek to pay its enormous and growing debt obligations in a weakened US dollar, are looking to the possibility of US Treasuries being issued in yen."

Basically saying that our financial system is such crap that other gov'ts are unwilling to take our debt issued in our own currency. Thats about the point when you know your f***ed.

Lets see... who else did that historically?

Weimar Germany.
Argentina.

Didn't exactly pan out for those countries historically.

Sahtt- you could be 110% correct (and I hope you are). I just see all of this stuff culminating and I have yet to see any way to stop the freight train thats heading for every Americans home at 100mph.
 
I wasn’t actually promoting our system (that’s an American trait), I was just saying that things are not so bad. You will pull through. There are worse things happening than you have.

I was only saying that taxes can go up a lot more before you have problems. Gas prices (taxes) can go up more too, we pay 4x as much and nobody stops driving here. And we are seeing more of those big SUVs here too. So it’s not so bad.

Most of you who flame the system here are missing the point, lambasting the “socialistic” “hell” system here. You are too blind to see that you have swallowed the American koolaid. It tasted good, but now you have serious hallucinations.

The high tax system here works somewhat because it drives business and entrepreneurial people to be very sharp and careful and gives them (and only them, not the masses) a chance to do something. At the same time keeping the masses happy.

The masses neither have the tax knowledge nor the will to have 3 cars and a boat, but they still have the feeling they are accomplishing something, however small or big.

They just want to have a comfortable life. That is here.
And, make no mistake (don’t let that kookaid blind you) that’s what most American people really want too.

But Americans have been brought up to blindly believe in a dream. But that’s all it is, a dream. That they can be an astronaut or president, whatever, a dream. So when life gets them down and they only have 3 cars and 1 boat, they get frustrated and unhappy.

Here, they have not been brought up to want it all. They generally are happy with what they have. (and they still have quite a lot)

All over the world most of the people are cows and they want to be happy in their comfortable fields being milked. The cows don’t riot, don’t dream about being astronauts, don’t carry guns and are available to work and pay taxes. And don’t day dream about flying.

If the owners of the cows (entrepreneurs) invest a little in keeping the fields comfortable, and are left alone to get on with making money, and there are plenty of rich people here in this “socialistic hell”.
Plenty of Ferraris, Porsches, etc. where the hell do you think they are made, in Detroit?
And what roads and drivers do you think they are made for, American “autobahns”?
Come on.

Life is good here in Europe. It is not a socialistic hell. We don’t blindly flame others’ systems. We try to understand them and see how they do it.

And driving is good, we have freedom from cops and great cars that you don't have. And we have places like the Ring etc.:tongue:

And we try to learn from the last century, and what we have learned is that compromise and understanding and being a little “wimpy” is better than trying to be like some comic book action hero and hitting the concrete because you think you can jump off building and fly.

And we don’t actually call it socialism, we call it ”responsible” and “humane”. Just like “wimpy” is actually “modesty” and “sensible”.

You guys in the States don’t have it so bad, this recession/crash will hurt everybody, but come on, pay the price to keep the cows happy, and there won’t be riots in the streets.
Continue to ignore your “social” responsibilities and the cows could learn to use pitchforks.
Jeez, this thread has really wandered…sorry :rolleyes:

No doubt Europe has some good things, especially the cars :tongue: and a lot more free social services if you're the kind of person that just wants to move along in life...

My beef with Europe is:-No guns against foreign invaders or internal. The government does not fear it's people, as a health govt should nor foreign invaders. This is one of the reasons Japan didn't do a land invasion - b/c they knew not onlyt he military, but the citizens have guns.

Think I'm paranoid? You should read 'Lethal Laws - Gun Control as the Key to Genocide' and see the history of what happens when citizen's guns are taken away and the billions, no typo people have died as a result of internal or foreign invaders. Guns are not about killing people, they are about acting as a deterent to someone killing you, just like nukes are.
-Negative or near negative population growth. At the current rate, Europe, with the exception of a few 'ethnicities and religion..' <smirk> may not be around by the end of the century committing societal suicide... the first point b/c super important. Of course, it's more expensive to have kids in Europe than the US so that's a demotivating factor.
-With fewer new workers, who's going to pay for those expensive social servies of the elderly? Our financial system may be on the brink of collapse, but so is Europes - whether before or after America. Whichever happesn first will surely speed up the other.
-Anti-Christian, generalization yes, but true.
-Where are the Warren Buffets, Bill Gates, Microsoft's, Google's Michael Dell, Ralh Lauren on n on.. all the Entrepenuers? ... Why don't they exist in Europe? That is telling. Anti-big business climate.
-Apathy to the rest of the world. America is still the greatest exporter of goodwill by helping other countries in much higher proportions - in good part b/c of those 'fundamentalists Christians.'
-You're too PC not realizing some of the dangers happening with internal 'ethnicites' (read 'America Alone..')

This is a broad generalization and I don't mean to put you down.. I'm just saying that in general when comparing the US to Europe, these are the things that stand out.

We like our freedoms, we like to be held accountable for our actions, both good and bad, we like to dream, change the world, help people and we're still the nation that most people want to emigrate to. Why woudl that be if America was so evil?

I strongly believe in this quote and I believe it applies to Europe strongly and America is following in it's footsteps.. I am open to being convinced that I'm wrong though.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.

Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness[up till now], from selfishness to complacency[OBAMA - "he's going to pay my mortgage!"], from complacency to apathy[Post Obama], from apathy to dependence[Europe..], from dependence back again to bondage" -Author(s) varied


Sorry for making this a little bit political again.. :)
 
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I find this thread very interesting. I do believe the USA is one of the best if not THE best place to live in the world.

However, in reading this I can't get out of my head the analogy of the elder adult of Europe and the brash, spoiled teenager US who has always gotten whatever they've wanted and think they know it all.

Sacrifice time is coming and going to get worse before it gets better. Several of the nations in Europe were at one time the global power or one of them. Maybe they've learned a few things over the years we'll need to. We're all of 230+ years old - but we have all the answers?

We consume way more than our global footprint suggests we should, and economically we're coming back to the pack. I think we may be forced to mature a little. The universe is cyclical, and maybe we've had our time in the lead but are burning out a bit. Doesn't hurt to look at what works with an open mind and use the elements that make sense to our own benefit rather than continuing to believe our historic path extrapolated into the future is the only way.

I know an economic alliance of India, China, Russia and whomever else scares me a little. An alliance such as that could really reshape the world as we know it if they ever could reach a cooperative agreement.
 
I find this thread very interesting. I do believe the USA is one of the best if not THE best place to live in the world.

However, in reading this I can't get out of my head the analogy of the elder adult of Europe and the brash, spoiled teenager US who has always gotten whatever they've wanted and think they know it all.

Sacrifice time is coming and going to get worse before it gets better. Several of the nations in Europe were at one time the global power or one of them. Maybe they've learned a few things over the years we'll need to. We're all of 230+ years old - but we have all the answers?

We consume way more than our global footprint suggests we should, and economically we're coming back to the pack. I think we may be forced to mature a little. The universe is cyclical, and maybe we've had our time in the lead but are burning out a bit. Doesn't hurt to look at what works with an open mind and use the elements that make sense to our own benefit rather than continuing to believe our historic path extrapolated into the future is the only way.

I know an economic alliance of India, China, Russia and whomever else scares me a little. An alliance such as that could really reshape the world as we know it if they ever could reach a cooperative agreement.


I'd almost say it's the reverse (well, not really..) but at least USA is not a teenager.

It's probably, or should be, a young adult working hard to make due for it's family and future, with high dreams down the road while trying to enjoy life (MAYBE too much)

Of course, there are those waiting for hand-outs, and growing..

If Europe is an elder adult, they are sitting ducks.
 
I know an economic alliance of India, China, Russia and whomever else scares me a little. An alliance such as that could really reshape the world as we know it if they ever could reach a cooperative agreement.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. India has dozens of major political parties that all speak different languages and can't agree on anything, much less an economic plan like that. China is more worried about civil war than anything else (it's about that time historically for them). And Russia is more concerned about restablishing the Soviet Union, which they are currently undertaking and will accelerate once Obama is in office.
 
I wouldn't worry about it too much. India has dozens of major political parties that all speak different languages and can't agree on anything, much less an economic plan like that. China is more worried about civil war than anything else (it's about that time historically for them). And Russia is more concerned about restablishing the Soviet Union, which they are currently undertaking and will accelerate once Obama is in office.

The biggest threat with Russia is and continues to be nuclear war and the end of civilization.... All it takes is a misunderstanding once and within ten minutes, we are all wiped out.
 
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