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how to save yourself some $$$ when replacing your clutch

Joined
19 January 2001
Messages
8,241
Location
Chandler, AZ
Since the clutch is probably the most expensive commonly replaced wear item on the NSX, here's a quick primer to help you save some money before and after the time to replace your clutch.

before you need to replace your clutch:
The design of the early twin disc factory clutch yields a low relative MOI (moment of inertia). While this is great for performance, it also has the effect of making clutch engagement more difficult to judge. In conjunction with the factory friction liner material having a comparatively low coefficient of friction for smooth engagement, the NSX clutch is much easier to slip which in-turn generates heat from friction. Friction leads to wearing of the friction liner, and the eventual need to replace the clutch.

We've found the best way to eliminate premature wear is to consciously think in your head that the key to preserving your clutch is to eliminate as much slip as possible. Be distinctive and static with the clutch engagement and disengagement action. At first, this may make the car very jerky, but with time, you will begin to time the clutch action with engine speed, making clutch engagement smooth. As your skill develops, you will also pick up advanced clutch-saving techniques such as rev-matching which will decrease the amount of friction during gear change. There are some other tips, such as not riding the clutch pedal during car movement, or not leaving the clutch pedal depressed while stopped. Even though the clutch is disengaged when in neutral, the first clutch disc still rides and is subjected to the flywheel spinning at engine speed.

when it's time to replace your clutch:
Most of our customers choose ACT or Centerforce clutches since they offer increased performance over the factory clutch, smooth operation with a more static sporty engagement, and an economical price. However, if a rebuilt clutch is used, a refundable core charge is applied (in our case, $250.00). This core charge is refundable based on the condition that the factory clutch is returned in rebuildable condition. The most common reason why parts of the clutch can not be rebuilt is failure from heat build up. When the clutch begins to slip from wear, the increased friction of the friction material and contact surface not mating statically results in heat. With decreased thermal mass of the worn friction material, and increased thermal build up, the steel begins to weaken and crack. Warpage sometimes occurs, and the damper springs in the clutch discs can be damaged. Even though we keep good components available to replace defective clutch components when a clutch is returned, it may be a good idea to try to eliminate stress on the clutch if you plan on returning it as a core to get your full refund back as there will be a better chance that individual components of the core will not need to be replaced.

Most of this is common sense, however I hope it's helped to keep a few dollars in your pocket.

Cheers,
-- Chris
 
i think i understand most of it. :) thanks for the write up.
 
Clutch replacement

Excellent advice! Thanks, Chris.
 
Chris@SoS said:
At first, this may make the car very jerky, but with time, you will begin to time the clutch action with engine speed, making clutch engagement smooth.
When the clutch is opened up, you can quite easily see whether you have gotten good at this. Someone who is good at engaging the clutch smoothly, with minimum heat, will have clutch disks that look as smooth as a baby's
moon.gif
. Someone who isn't, will have friction material that looks rough and has visible scorch marks. There was a substantial variation of clutch surfaces observed recently at Acura of Brookfield, even among a group of experienced track event instructors.
 
thanx for the headsup!
very good info..
 
I have become more aware of the clutch thing as of late, and I have only had my car for about 4 months now and i bought it brand new. So I am very interested in starting now to conciously preserve my clutch and reduce wear.

My main question is on take off. When the car and clutch are cold, I seem to get a lot of slippage when moving from a complete stop. Once the clutch warms up, however, that slippage disappears and the clutch more easily catches.

How do I take off with everything cold without slippage in the clutch? More gas? A combo of more gas, quicker clutch release? When I try more gas and faster release I feel like I am riding the clutch. Any advice here?

Once at speed, what is a good shift point for most of the gears so that the clutch can be released quickly without "popping" it and jerking the car?

Thanks for any info!!!

Ryan
'03 Black/Tan

p.s.
As a result of this message board in a previous thread, I have completely broken the habit of leaving my clutch pedal depressed at stops. And I am rev matching (or at least trying to develop the skill) as much as possible.
 
It has been posted in a different thread that the best way to avoid clutch shudder when leaving from a dead stop, is to blip the throttle and engage the clutch as the engine RPM is falling. Not meaning any flames, but my experience is that this is not correct. About +90% of the time, I leave from a dead stop with no clutch shudder while adding gas to raise the engine RPM. At full throttle my engine transmits 435 HP to the input shaft of the transmission w/o any problems. The car is a daily driver and has the current clutch for over two years. Car sees the track too.

On a related but different note, I whole-heartedly agree with SOS's (Chris) comment on letting the clutch out in a decisive manner. There is an NSXer here in Houston (initials AM) that while he is a very good trackster, when he is maneuvering into a parking place, you have the urge to yell out "Let the clutch out already, will ya?" :p Surprised he gets a year out of a clutch with that type of parking lot driving. :D
 
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clarification please...

"There are some other tips, such as not riding the clutch pedal during car movement, or not leaving the clutch pedal depressed while stopped. Even though the clutch is disengaged when in neutral, the first clutch disc still rides and is subjected to the flywheel spinning at engine speed."

Can someone please clarify this statement? What does "riding" the clutch pedal mean? How does the first clutch disc still ride when you're in neutral?

When I see a red light coming ahead I don't leave my car in gear. I tend to shift it to neutral and brake to a stop. Is this bad?
 
How does this discussion pertain to the single disk clutch of the 97+ cars? Are they still as fragile and wear prone?
 
While we are on the topic of clutches, can someone give me some ideas of testing a clutch for slippage? I have never had to replace a clutch on any of my past vehicles so I don't really know what slippage feels like.
 
Not much time but I'll offer a few scattered thoughts if I may.

The part about noticing it slip more when cold but not after it warms up leads me to one of two conclusions: Something was/is wrong with your clutch, or you don't yet really grasp how it works and how to operate it. I suspect the latter, but that's not a flame, most people who have driven them for years don't really get it either. Basically, if you are lifting off the clutch slowly enough even to think you sense that difference then you are probably moving too slowly and causing unnecessary wear.

Where I come from "riding the clutch" refers to leaving your foot resting on the pedal even when not working the clutch. That can easily wear out the throw-out bearing and/or the portion of the pressure plate on which it presses during use. However, it is also frequently used to describe holding the pedal down while stopped briefly, or partial engagement to hold the car still on an incline rather than using the brakes. (Positively amazing how many people think they are clever when discovering that "technique")

Proper engagement should be very brisk and yet without drama. Awhile back MB summed it up by saying something to the effect that you are only casing wear while the pedal is in motion. That of course does not include side-stepping it at high RPM or any of the above mention variations on "riding" it, but I think it conveys the goal nicely. Technique is best developed by riding with someone who has it, then practicing. Unfortunately, a great many people who sincerely believe that they are "easy" on a clutch are quite wrong.
 
My question is in regard to "match revving" to reduce wear on the tranny. Explain how this works exactly...IOW how its done.
 
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BladesNSX said:
My question is in regard to "match revving" to reduce wear on the tranny. Explain this works exactly...IOW how its done.

Use the throttle to get your engine speed to match the gear you're about to go into. You should rev match when downshifting...otherwise your clutch/drivetrain takes the brunt of revving up your engine, and the car pitches forward all off-balance. You are often on the brake while downshifting, so the heel is used to rev match while the toe is on the brake.
 
I have another question for you clutch gurus.

How do you handle standstill traffic? In that situation, where you cannot always let out the clutch fully as you inch along, you pretty much have to ride the clutch, right? Especially if you are just moving a few more feet ahead and then have to stop again.

Is it preferable to ride the clutch in this senario versus lug the engine?

This next question is for SJS (or anyone else who can answer it).

Thank SJS, for your reply. My question to you is:

How quickly should I let out the clutch from a dead stop take off? As quickly as a regualr shift at speed, or slightly more feathered than a regular shift at speed?


RR
 
Mine is a daily driver in a city with as much traffic congestion as the next large metropolis. I do not ride the clutch nor do I lug the engine. I merely let out on the clutch just enough to get me going, then back in neutral and release the clutch. Repeat as necessary.

As far as how long it takes to let out the clutch - once I am rolling, my shifts are complete on approximately one second. Not shuddering the clutch, my first gear clutch letout from a dead stop is about 1.5 seconds. Rarely (perhaps never?) longer than two full seconds. I know an NSXer that has the absolutely smoothest dead stop take off. Unfortunately, that person "takes forever" (as in something like five seconds) to feather the clutch from a dead stop. At the Honda dealership, I saw the dead clutch and it was solid blue across the entire surface from too much heat.
 
Sounds like most of the questions have been answered. The flywheel, which is bolted to the crankshaft, rotates at engine speed. When the clutch pedal is depressed, the 1st clutch disc lifts away from the flywheel. Even though it becomes disengaged, the disc can still slightly contact the flywheel. This is most apparent when the car is up in the air, in neutral, with the engine spinning. The rear wheels will still slightly spin as many of you have probably seen. As Andy points out, it's best to shift the car into neutral, and engage the clutch when not moving.

Cheers,
-- C
 
one more question, as if I let off the clutch from start up with min. throttle, of course not at the point that will stall the engine, but then I will hear a little "springy thing" noise, I have yet to have any experience people hearing it, but somebody told me that I since I'm not giving any gas (opening up the throttle), I'm starving the engine, and that very well might be me pinging the engine??

True?? but if I give a little throttle, i would have drag the clutch for maybe a little less than a second, am I damaging my clutch too??

on that rush hour traffic, I live in a place that they used OnRamp regulator... I had a problem that kept slipping the clutch or else the car shot forward...( it was quite embarrasing, from the outside, people will see my car shot forward, then hit the brake to bring the car to stop, then the whole process again...) Sometime I try to keep a longer distance, either got horned by impatient people, or got cut off by others... So any suggestion??
 
fangtl said:
While we are on the topic of clutches, can someone give me some ideas of testing a clutch for slippage? I have never had to replace a clutch on any of my past vehicles so I don't really know what slippage feels like.

Your clutch is designed to slip ! yes, that's the entire purpose of a clutch. Whenever your engine's revs are different than your transmission and wheels revs, the clutch slips.

You cannot prevent a clutch from slipping, but you can prevent your clutch from slipping more than it is necessary. That's what Chris's advices are all about.

Eventually all clutches will wear out and won't be able to keep up with the engine torque. A bad clutch, eventhough engaged fully, will start slipping whenever enough torque is applied that will be higher than the clutch's clamping force. You can test that by putting your car in third gear with the parking break applied (I assume your parking brake is working correctly) and applying gas while engaging the clutch in a decisive manner (like if you wanted to move). The engine should stall immediately as the clutch is engaged. If you the engine keeps revving even 1 second after the clutch is fully engaged, your clutch is worn.

Hope this helps...
 
I would say that there is no universal answer for that. Too many variables (incline of the road, load in the car, type of clutch, condition of clutch, temperature of clutch,...). practice makes perfect, I guess...
 
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NSXDreamer2 said:
one more question, as if I let off the clutch from start up with min. throttle, of course not at the point that will stall the engine, but then I will hear a little "springy thing" noise, I have yet to have any experience people hearing it, but somebody told me that I since I'm not giving any gas (opening up the throttle), I'm starving the engine, and that very well might be me pinging the engine??

True??
IMHO, no. Pinging is commonly refered to the sound made by the engine (valves ?) when it starves in fuel with comparison to air and/or when some pre-ignition occurs due to gas octane and high compression ratios (especially when too much air is forced into an engine with Forced Induction, turbos, SC...). Unless you have a fuel regulation problem, I would say that noise is not what you were told...

but if I give a little throttle, i would have drag the clutch for maybe a little less than a second, am I damaging my clutch too??
Unless you enduce excessive slippage and/or "riding it", you are not damaging your clutch

on that rush hour traffic, I live in a place that they used OnRamp regulator... I had a problem that kept slipping the clutch or else the car shot forward...( it was quite embarrasing, from the outside, people will see my car shot forward, then hit the brake to bring the car to stop, then the whole process again...) Sometime I try to keep a longer distance, either got horned by impatient people, or got cut off by others... So any suggestion??

You need more practice, imho. When you get it right, you do not shoot the car, nor slipping the clutch too much. If you are on an OnRamp regulator and the ramp has a downslope, then allow the car to roll a bit before releasing the clutch. If the slope is upward, use your parking brake to prevent the car from rolling back and release it as you feel the car wanting to move forward.

hope this helps...
 
I have noticed that more on the NSX than other cars I have driven, the type of shoes I'm wearing makes my shifts (any gear, not just first) very good or bad. And for the smart ones out there, I've never tried on stilettos :D
 
No offense to apapada but I state a few things differently.

Although what he hears is probably not pinging, initial take-off from a standstill is a very common time for it to occur on many cars, especially those with carbon buildup, too much ignition advance around idle, over heating, crappy gas, lean mixture, "lugging" it, or a combination of these and other conditions. The pining sound is not from the valves, it is the ringing of the block caused by the collision of two flame fronts. Read a simple explanation here:

http://www.hastingsmfg.com/Service Tips/detonation_and_preignition.htm

Yes the clutch is designed to slip, but your explanation of it's purpose in life could be misleading. It is designed to slip slightly to smooth the transition as you couple the engine flywheel to the input shaft of the transmission. That should occur only while the clutch pedal is in motion, but your description makes it sound more like a torque converter. I know what you mean, but a newbie might think it slips during other times to sync up the engine and tranny.

The problem with most "tests" you can tell people to run is that they won't do it right and cause still more wear. Your rest in particular is a bad one. Someone with a feel for it knows when it happens anyway, but perhaps a better test is to drive along in 4th or 5th gear at ~4500 RPM, press hard on the accelerator and firmly enough on the brake to begin slowing the car. Then again, a novice may not recognize the slip and end up smoking the clutch further. (Not sure how you could miss it since the engine will start to rev even though the car is slowing down, but some people just don't get it.)

I would agree with most of the other things you said. Practice is important, but only if you are practicing the right thing. Those darn OnRamp regulator are a pain but as you noted they can be handled if your technique is good. Any half-out, then in again to ease the car forward is taking life off your clutch, fast.

rrhea, I've never timed my take offs or shifts. During up-shifts it comes out as fast as I can lift my foot. Certainly it is released more slowly from a stop, but it is still a brisk movement. Keep in mind that the pedal throw is several inches but the actual range from first touch to full engagement is only a small fraction of that. If there is time to clearly hear & feel it slip then you are still too slow through that tiny range.
 
Originally posted by fangtl
I have never had to replace a clutch on any of my past vehicles so I don't really know what slippage feels like.
Here's my description. This is not really a "test" for slippage, but rather, a description of what it feels like when it occurs.

When the clutch pedal is full in - or, when the car is in neutral - you can move the accelerator pedal up and down, and it will move very freely, changing the revs of the car rapidly. The car's speed isn't changing (much) - so it's as though the accelerator is disconnected from the car's speed.

When the clutch pedal is full out, any movement in the accelerator pedal is normally matched with a change in the car's speed. Push the pedal and the car accelerates. Let up and the car slows. The two feel very much tied together.

When the clutch is slipping, you get the same disconnected feeling with the clutch out as you do with the clutch in - at least momentarily immediately after changing gears, and if your clutch is really hosed, you may feel it all the time.
 
Chris@SoS said:
The most common reason why parts of the clutch can not be rebuilt is failure from heat build up.

You might also mention if a clutch has previously been rebuilt more than likely it will not be able to be rebuilt again. This is the experience I had with Centerforce. So those of you who are looking for a core on the net may want to ask if the core has previously been rebuilt.
 
Re: Re: how to save yourself some $$$ when replacing your clutch

Certainly good advice since we do not accept previously rebuilt clutches as cores.

-- Chris

nsxxtreme said:
You might also mention if a clutch has previously been rebuilt more than likely it will not be able to be rebuilt again. This is the experience I had with Centerforce. So those of you who are looking for a core on the net may want to ask if the core has previously been rebuilt.
 
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