Tire question/recommendation

[Dtrigg]

I am currently running 225/40/17 Notto Extrem on the front and 255/40/17 on the rear. I am looking for new tires with same tread pattern, but am having some problems finding them. Went to a shop today and the guy also had difficulity finding the same tread/tire combinations.

I always ran Yocos on my previous NSX and was happy, but in reality they were so soft I ran through them in no time.

Thanks in advance.

Doug

 

[nsxtasy]

I'm trying to understand what you're looking for. Great handling? Longer treadlife? etc. It sounds like you're looking for a tire that resembles the Nitto tire, regardless of whether its performance is any good or not...?

Since you have 17" wheels all around, why not try the OEM tires in the '02-03 sizes (Bridgestone Potenza RE040, 215/40-17 front, 255/40-17 rear, and make sure you get a left front NSX tire, a right front NSX tire, etc)? They have great handling (of course, since they were designed specifically for the NSX) and you may find that they last quite a bit longer than the OEM tires for the smaller wheels. They're certainly worth a try.

 

[Dtrigg]

Told the people at the tire store, who were stumped, that you would be able to answer the question...

I am looking for something that's sticky, but at the same time will give me a decient amount of tire life.

Thanks for your recommendation.

 

[MvM]

Nsxtasy,
(or anyone else for that matter)

Do you have any info on how the RE040 compares to the Bridgestone S02 and/or S03 in terms of grip and tire-life??

 

[NSXT]

Ken, where is the Honda or Bridgestone documentation to support your statement that the RE040 is "designed specifically for the NSX"?

 

[nsxtasy]

Ken, where is the Honda or Bridgestone documentation to support your statement that the RE040 is "designed specifically for the NSX"?

If you check Bridgestone's spec sheet for the RE040 here, you will notice that even though the various sizes of these tires are OE fitment for numerous different cars, the NSX sizes are the only ones for which they have designated a left side tire that is different from a right side tire. I can only assume that this is because they have designed in the biasing for each side that works with the NSX alignment to maximize precise handling, as noted in the "Tire Tech" section of the FAQ where it describes the OEM tires.

 

[NSXT]

There are a whole lot of things I can guess and/or assume. Where is the Honda/Bridgestone documentation which states the RE040 has the belt bias?

 

[Jimbo]

Were the original OEM tires ever specified for use on other vehicles?

-Jim

 

[andreas]

our friend at american honda recently told me that the RE040s on his company car did not have left/right indicators as the previous OEM tires. he therefore believes that the RE040 is not corner specific even though i pointed out that all four had different part numbers.

 

[NSXT]

Very interesting. If there is no left or right marking, nor an inside or outside marking (as stated in a previous thread), how is one to know, or confirm after installation, on which corner the tire goes?

Perhaps your friend at American Honda is correct, and, contrary Nsxtasy's speculations, assumptions and guesses, the RE040 is not corner specific.

Which now brings a more interesting discussion: If the RE040 is not corner specific and the 2003 NSX still has fantastic handling, did alignment, spring rates or suspension geometry change? If not, does any year NSX truly rely upon corner specific tires?

 

[nsxtasy]

our friend at american honda recently told me that the RE040s on his company car did not have left/right indicators as the previous OEM tires. he therefore believes that the RE040 is not corner specific even though i pointed out that all four had different part numbers.

That just doesn't make sense. If the tires have different part numbers, they must be different in some way; otherwise, why have different part numbers for the same tire?

It's quite possible that the tires do not have left/right indicators. However, if a tire sidewall is marked "side facing outwards" (or inwards) and with a direction of rotation, then it is, in fact, a left tire or a right tire, even though it is not labeled as such.

 

[NSXT]

In this thread, s2ktaxi observed there are no outside or inside markings.

 

[nsxtasy]

One of my friends in the tire world put me in touch with a technical expert at Bridgestone - as he put it, he's "the second best person (the best one only speaks Japanese) to be able to really get into it with you about really detailed info on the RE040's". I just got off the phone with this contact, and this is what he said about them. This summary is virtually a verbatim transcript of his words and our conversation.

First, he said that all of the Bridgestone Potenza RE040 models (and also the RE050) are designed for specific cars. If you look at the spec sheet for the RE040, you will see that every tire size is designed for a specific vehicle. They work with the auto manufacturer to match the design criteria of the car manufacturer for the tires (precise handling, dry traction, wet traction, etc) along with the characteristics of the car, including its weight, its handling (propensity towards oversteer/understeer, etc). Thus the 215/45ZR17 size is optimized for the Lexus IS300, etc. And tires which come in different sizes front vs rear for a given car are indeed optimized for that particular end of that particular car.

Second, he said that the NSX sizes are indeed corner-specific. A left front 215/40-17 tire is different from a right front 215/40-17 tire. He wasn't sure exactly how, or whether the tires shared exactly the same design features as the RE010 tires for the '91-01 sizes, but he said that the tires are not symmetric and are not interchangeable from one side to the other. He was surprised to hear that there is no sidewall marking to indicate which side the tire should be mounted on, but assured me that the left tire was still different from the right tire.

Finally, I expressed to him the concerns that some have raised about how a "twelve year old tire", such as the RE010 tire which was designed specifically for the NSX, might compare with a newer-generation general-purpose tire such as the Bridgestone S-03 which is designed to be used on many vehicles. He said that it depends on the car in question. For example, with a family car like a Ford Taurus or Honda Accord, the design objectives of an OEM tire are geared towards that particular vehicle, and might seek to maximize ride comfort and minimize noise, while providing decent but not superb dry cornering traction. In that case, the driver who is concerned about performance characteristics such as dry traction and precise handling might indeed find that the S-03 performs better for his preferences than the OEM tire. However, he said that with a high-performance sports car like the NSX or S2000, the design objectives of the OEM tire are to maximize those same performance characteristics. As a result, the older OEM tire that is designed specifically for that vehicle can easily provide better performance than a newer tire which is designed to be used on many different vehicles.

 

[nsxtasy]

Were the original OEM tires ever specified for use on other vehicles?

Not in the original OEM sizes. Some other sizes were specified for particular vehicles, and other sizes were general-purpose (not specified for any particular vehicle). For example, the 195/55-15 RE010 tire is specified as an OEM tire for the '97-01 Integra Type R. Yokohama has a tire called the A022A with a similar tread pattern to the A022H; the A022A is available in the 195/55-15 size but I don't believe it is specified for any particular model of car.

 

[mattfish]

I really hope that the #1 expert does not die before he reveals the secret of the RE040. If you purchase these tires from Tirerack's website, they only list a "front" and a "rear". If you purchase the RE010, they list a specific tire for each corner. How will anyone ever know how to properly mount the RE040? I'm not trying to make waves, just really would like to know in case I ever put these on my car.

 

[nsxtasy]

I should have been more specific and mentioned that he did not know off the top of his head what the differences are between a left RE040 tire and a right RE040 tire. This does not surprise me; Bridgestone has 104 different models of tire on its website, and each of them has many different sizes and applications, such as the 16 listed just for the RE040. I doubt that many of us would have memorized the design characteristics of 1600 different products that we sell.

I could divulge additional information on this particular gentlemen's role and responsibilities at Bridgestone, but I won't. I could post his name and phone number here, but I won't. I could even post the name and phone number of the person who gave me his name, but I won't. Why? Here's why. Those of us who are accustomed to establishing business relationships with individuals in the automotive community know that these relationships are based on trust. I get to talk with these folks because those who give me their names know that I won't betray that trust. He was more than happy to spend fifteen minutes on the phone with me, because he knows the person who gave me his name wouldn't betray that trust by passing his information along.

If I divulged his information here, that creates the possibility that 20 or 50 different NSXprime members might call him for information about Bridgestone products. This would be an abuse of that trust, simply in terms of the amount of time he would need to spend answering such calls, which is not normally part of his job function. Furthermore, while one would hope that most of such calls would be from NSXprime members who would be respectful, there is always the possibility that he would get a call, say, from some @$$hole who has already established a record here of belligerence and harassment beyond belief, and would only be expected to continue to show such discourtesy in additional contacts with others. This has happened before, with contacts at Acura; at least one e-mail list member who was in the process of initiating litigation against Acura had the nerve to call him for technical advice.

So no, I will not present this person's credentials for the benefit in order to continue this absurd argument with NSXT, whose pathological efforts to try to discredit me and the information I post are every bit as pathetic as they are unsuccessful.

 

[nsxtasy]

If you purchase these tires from Tirerack's website, they only list a "front" and a "rear". If you purchase the RE010, they list a specific tire for each corner.

Then Tire Rack's website needs updating. I'll let my friends there know. (In the past I've found, on occasion, that their website sometimes omits information or selections regarding tire selections. They're actually very good about making corrections to it to enable people to order what they need.)

How will anyone ever know how to properly mount the RE040? I'm not trying to make waves, just really would like to know in case I ever put these on my car.

My guess is that either (a) the tire has a marking on the inside sidewall, or (b) the tires come like the RE010 and A022H tires, with big stickers on them indicating which side of the car they should be mounted on.

 

[AaronR]

ok I'm not getting into the situation, but I will comment on one factor.

Here at The Tirerack, our part numbers for the 2002-2003 NSX Specific RE040's are indeed diffrent from left to right. If you were to call a phone salesman here we would ask you if you needed left or right side tires. There is both a marking on the sidewall as well as one on the label indicating the correct side to use. When you recieve the tires it is easy to tell what side they belong on. If you ordered these tires for your nsx online, you would recieve a call from one of our specialists who would make sure you recieve the correct side tires that you need. for those of you who like to get technical - here are the actual bridgestone product codes for the tires so you can see they are indeed corner specific.

215/40R17 BS~POZ RE040 R HO
117-641/05221 "CMM" RIGHT 83Y

215/40R17 BS~POZ RE040 L HO
117-455/05219 "CMJ" LEFT 83Y

255/40R17 BS~POZ RE040 R
117-935/05225 "CMD" RIGHT 94Y

255/40R17 BS~POZ RE040 L
117-927/05220 "CMN" LEFT 94Y

Hope that helps - carry on.....



Aaron

 

[mattfish]

Would putting the '02-'03 wheels and tires on an older model improve performance? Why did they change to wheels of the same size in '02? Did other aspects of the car change that require the wheel change?

 

[Tjoines]

How to tell left and right with out a label

The label affixed from the factory does tell left or right. The listing on the tire it self is more difficult to find.

The identifying code is actually the "center" portion of the tire identification number
(Previously called the tire's "serial number") branded on the sidewall:

For example;
DOT XXXX CMD XXXX is on the Right rear.
DOT XXXX CMN XXXX is on the Left rear.

That’s the easy part.

We do not have the engineering specifics from Bridgestone on the differences in left or right. The differences could be anything from using asymmetric sidewall stiffeners to "reversing" the angle of the individual steel cords used to make the belts. The tire manufacturers do not usually give out the engineering design specifics on OE tires. We have the same difficulty on the difference between the multiple “N specification” Porsche OE tires.

I understand that there would be reluctance to believe what a manufactures claims with out hard facts. Here are a few reasons we (I know, I know I’m saying “trust me” here) are confident that there are construction differences in the tires:

-We have had very good relations with Bridgestone and do not feel they would produce the same tires and tell us that they are different. Maybe we are being too trusting but we have not found reasons to mistrust them in the past.

-Acura’s extensive testing would most likely have found any “inaccuracies” in the tire designations.

-Producing different left and right tires is very expensive for the tire manufacturer even if it is just a label in the sidewall mold. It adds complexity to manufacturing and especially to inventories on replacement tires. It is difficult to build the correct number of lefts and rights as it seems the replacement demand is fluctuates between left and right. Our experience tells us that the manufacturers reduce complexity when ever possible. They only build specific OE tires if the car manufacturer puts such high demands on specific performance characteristics that the only way to get the contract is to build a special tire.

The NSX is one of the unique cars that can take full advantage of the correct tires. It is also seen as a “trophy” car that the tire manufactures are willing to spend more on developing tires than might be justified by sales to the NSX alone. They want to be able to say they are one of the chosen few original equipment suppliers. The manufactures could not afford to do this for more mainstream cars.

I hope this helps clear things up a little. The information is based off of our years of experience in this industry and is most accurate I have available. Any inaccuracies or errors are unintentional. Fortunately we offer tires from 14 different brands so our loyalties are to our customers and not to making a specific tire manufacture look good.

We did find the error on our website that was causing the database to not list the lefts and rights and we should be displaying the correct information in the next ½ hour. We do review all the orders that come through our website and would have caught and corrected any that came through as only one side.

Tim Joines
Sales Manager
The Tire Rack
[email protected]
1-800-428-8355 Ext 303

 

[nsxtasy]

Would putting the '02-'03 wheels and tires on an older model improve performance?

I doubt that there would be any significant difference.

Why did they change to wheels of the same size in '02?

They wanted to freshen the appearance, and that's one easy way to do so.

Did other aspects of the car change that require the wheel change?

I don't believe so.

 

[Hrant]

I am looking at a set of 2004 OEM RE040 tires on OEM wheels.

I see the letter markings referred to above to tell the left and the right tires which should correspond to the rotational direction as well. These tires were manufactured in 2003.

However, one side (left) front and rear have the DOT label on the inside, and the other side (right) front and rear have the DOT label on the outside. I am presuming this is how it was shipped from the factory as the tires are almost new, the valve markings are still there.

The rotational directions are correct. But shouldn't all DOT markings be on the outside? If you invert it then the rotation will be backward for the corner specific tires.

Edit: Just got a return call from Tim at Tire Rack. The DOT markings make no difference whether they are on the inside or outside. That was a very quick response back. Thanks Tim.