Frist drive of HONDA HSC!!

[ChrisK]

Japanese high end cars are not status symbols in the US, and the general perception is that you're a fool to buy one over a Benz or BMW. None of us at Prime adhere to this belief of course, we know who makes the best cars.

But reality is reality.

Generally I don't agree with you when you say you want a $60K NSX replacement and such, but I have to agree with you here. Unfortunately many Americans hold BMW and Mercedes as the ultimate status symbol no matter what trim level you actually get. A secratery at my insurance carrier complimented me on my beaufiful Acura NSX when I went to insure it, but was in awe and impressed with my 95 325 BMW when I insured that. It was like, nice Acura, but "WOW" a BMW.

 

[NSXF1]

Turbo? I just don't see it.

Credibility rating......... a "7"

1. Completely unverified (externally generated, no verified sources)

2. Unverified, but gaining momentum (externally generated, coming from multiple sources)

3. Speculative (internally generated, based on speculation/opinion)

4. Educated Guess (internally generated, based on "inside" information + speculation/opinion)

5. Rumour (has approximately a 50/50 chance of truth)

6. Credible Rumour (coming from a reliable source, though not necessarily verified - also fitting of past Honda patterns)

7. Verified by unofficial source (we get an unofficial confirmation from an "insider" or other credible 3rd party)

8. Extremely Likely

9. Confirmed, but specs/dates could vary

10. Fact/Confirmed


I'd go more with this, "We're guessing that the turbocharged motor is A) a smokescreen or B) standing in for the "real" motor for chassis development work."

I'd bet money you will NOT see a production turbo.

 

[pko5]

Turbo baby!!

Why would I pay $100K+ for a HSC when I can put a reliable Comptech supercharger on my '91 NSX (for sale at: http://home.comcast.net/~pko5) for $10k and give it 400+ hp? Or even cheaper, a turbo for less than $5k?

Turbo doesn't justify spending $100K for the HSC. Might as well keep my car, put a supercharger in, and get a nice 911 Twin Turbo (slightly used). Then I'd have 2 exotics. The Porsche would be my everyday driver and the NSX would be my weekend car.

 

[NetViper]

Re: Re: Frist drive of HONDA HSC!!

Why would I pay $100K+ for a HSC when I can put a reliable Comptech supercharger on my '91 NSX (for sale at: http://home.comcast.net/~pko5) for $10k and give it 400+ hp? Or even cheaper, a turbo for less than $5k?

Turbo doesn't justify spending $100K for the HSC. Might as well keep my car, put a supercharger in, and get a nice 911 Twin Turbo (slightly used). Then I'd have 2 exotics. The Porsche would be my everyday driver and the NSX would be my weekend car.

Why would anyone spend more money buying a 360 when they have a 355 and could mod it to be just as fast? -- because it is a NEW car... newer technology etc... it isn't all about the HP. I have no doubt even with the same HP, the HSC will outperform the NSX in every way.

Also, I comptech SC will not give you 400+ HP. And if you can get a turbo for 5K, do it... Both Factor X and GJ's kit are around $10K for the 400HP level. Upwards of $20K for 500+ RWHP.

 

[JAYS NSX]

If sufficient (which is different for all) power can be made without the aid of a turbocharer, than it seems a turbo is just an additional part that requires maintanance IMO.

 

[CokerRat]

Japanese high end cars are not status symbols in the US, and the general perception is that you're a fool to buy one over a Benz or BMW.

Mostly true. Remember that Toyota succeeded in establishing Lexus as a prestige brand some would say on-par with BMW. Acura failed to do so and IMO continues to make bad marketing decisions. (Can't buy a brand-new $20K Lexus or BMW can you?)

 

[MAKO]

Mostly true. Remember that Toyota succeeded in establishing Lexus as a prestige brand some would say on-par with BMW. Acura failed to do so and IMO continues to make bad marketing decisions. (Can't buy a brand-new $20K Lexus or BMW can you?)

Yes and No.

As I've indicated, even with Lexus there is a finite limit that Americans won't breach in paying for a Japanese car. That limit is $70k and not a penny more.

As an example I pointed to the Lexus SC430, which is dying a harsh death. Also, the latest LS430's sales have been disappointing to Toyota, even though it's won a ton of critical acclaim by US journos. Granted it's not the prettiest car either, but a lack of prettiness has never stopped Mercedes or BWM from dominating with their new models in years past.

Part of the reason that the LS430 is struggling is that they tend to come optioned out heavily, which has them sitting on dealership lots with $70k stickers.

Either it's crazy coincedence that BOTH of Lexus' most expensive models are in the sales dumper, while their competitors in the same dollar space are thriving, or there is a tangible ceiling in terms of price that Americans just won't cross when it comes to Japanese cars.

I tend to believe the latter.

 

[pko5]

Re: Re: Re: Frist drive of HONDA HSC!!

Also, I comptech SC will not give you 400+ HP. And if you can get a turbo for 5K, do it... Both Factor X and GJ's kit are around $10K for the 400HP level. Upwards of $20K for 500+ RWHP.

Oh.

 

[gheba_nsx]

Note from the TempleOfVtec:

Please note that this account comes from a drive of the HSC prototype. It's quite likely that the specifications of the actual car will differ from the prototype, perhaps significantly. In particular, the notion of a turbocharger seems particularly suspicious, especially considering Honda's past stance on turbocharging, not to mention the somewhat modest quoted output rating of 400hp. We're guessing that the turbocharged motor is A) a smokescreen or B) standing in for the "real" motor for chassis development work. A naturally aspirated motor of 400hp or more (from 3.5L) should be quite "doable" in Honda's technology showcase. Further evidence that this drivetrain is purely to make the prototype "go" is the presence of the 4-speed transmission. Surely the production car will make do with no fewer than 6 ratios.




I think they are right... that was only to put a 400hp engine in it. This should hint us on the final number they want to achieve...


Anyway I agree with my Swiss friends (and some other): TURBO IS CRAP! Please Honda do not do that...


I add that IMO the price should be in the 80k area. 100k is way too much.

 

[huckster]

well......a 400 hp turbo wouldnt get me back into a nsx(hsc-whatever). However, an nsx type car under 4 sec 0-60 (superlight more than likely) however they got there would be interesting. turbo, whatever.

i disagree with the 70k ceiling thing. The lexus (convertible especially) dont sell well IMO because they arent 'special'. performance is 'ok', and looks are ppppfffftttt.

i mean, i really dont like cadillac, but id buy a xlr over the lexus sc convertible because the lexus is pretty ughhlllyy--just my honest opinion.

i think you build it, and they will come (we will come). whatever the price. but it has to justify the price by being that exotic AND beautiful.

 

[2slow2speed]

No way it will be a turbo engine...

It's just me !

I had several cars with turbo and I promised myself to never buy a turbo car again.

If I was interested to sell my NSX for a Porsche, it would be for the GT3 rather than the Turbo.

The power is one thing, the method used to obtain it is the most important for me and turbo is a really CHEAP method in my opinion.

No offense for those with supercharged or turbo NSX, it's just my opinion.

Yep I agree, NA engines all the way, no turbo's for me either.

Having to deal with heat issues, reliability, etc, is a big turn-off for me.

If the 2nd Gen NSX has a Turbocharged engine I doubt that I will even consider buying one.

The only other car that I have considered buying recently is the 996-GT3, period, no 996TT or used 996GT2's. The power delivery of Turbo engines is not my cup of tea at all . Even the Porsche factory drivers who run their cars at the Ring prefer the power delivery of NA engines.

If Porsche can manufacture a GT3 that does 0-60 under 4 seconds and has less than 400hp, I'm sure that Honda can do it as well (Unless they got really lazy, and opted for the easy way out)

Ken

 

[White92]

Please note that this account comes from a drive of the HSC prototype. It's quite likely that the specifications of the actual car will differ from the prototype, perhaps significantly. In particular, the notion of a turbocharger seems particularly suspicious, especially considering Honda's past stance on turbocharging, not to mention the somewhat modest quoted output rating of 400hp. We're guessing that the turbocharged motor is A) a smokescreen or B) standing in for the "real" motor for chassis development work. A naturally aspirated motor of 400hp or more (from 3.5L) should be quite "doable" in Honda's technology showcase. Further evidence that this drivetrain is purely to make the prototype "go" is the presence of the 4-speed transmission. Surely the production car will make do with no fewer than 6 ratios.

How great would it be if they were using the turbo engine for chassis testing because that is the target hp number they are going for, but when the car is released it really has a 400hp 3.5 V-8? I'm probably just dreaming here. There's nothing wrong with that right? hehe

 

[gheba_nsx]

Not dreaming IMO, as I wrote above I agree with you!

 

[NetViper]

How great would it be if they were using the turbo engine for chassis testing because that is the target hp number they are going for, but when the car is released it really has a 400hp 3.5 V-8? I'm probably just dreaming here. There's nothing wrong with that right? hehe

Honda is sneaky... it just might happen.

Since the CEO said they were going after Ferrari, they are going to need serious power.

I can only assume he meant they were going after the 360. The question is, did he mean the current car, or the 420 that will have closer to 500 HP a 4.2L v8 and more tq.

We'll see.

 

[gheba_nsx]

The successor of the 360 Modena, called either 420 Modena or 420 Fiorano is rumored to be ready for Spring 2006, Ferrari admitted that the target car in performance is the GT2.

The engine will be a 4,2l V8 NA with 460-470 hp, the car should perform: 0-60 around 4s.

This is considered to be a spyshot (the wheels looks like the Enzo's and should be only for testing, the look will change):

 

[White92]

So maybe I'm not so crazy thinking that it might happen. I would love for the HSC to be made to compete with the new Modena and the GT2. I'm sure that if the engine was going to be a 3.5 V-8, it would hang with those cars. Honda has never needed larger displacement to make more power.

 

[NetViper]

So maybe I'm not so crazy thinking that it might happen. I would love for the HSC to be made to compete with the new Modena and the GT2. I'm sure that if the engine was going to be a 3.5 V-8, it would hang with those cars. Honda has never needed larger displacement to make more power.

I think the next NSX also needs a lot more TQ to compete with the Turbo cars. That is the biggest weakness of the current car IMO. Even Ferrari realized it needs more TQ -- therefore the 4.2L v8 vs 3.6.

 

[Timbo]

Guys, to everyone who is anti-turbo - what if Honda is clever enough to design a turbo engine that doesnt act like a traditional turbo? What if they build one where the thing is always on boost, is transparent, and simply acts like a larger engine?

I don't like turbos either, but only because I didn't like the characteristics of the turbos I have owned in the past, not just because they are turbos. If they can do away with the lag, and keep it as reliable as we expect, where's the problem?

Honda is the one company that would be clever enough to pull it off.

 

[Arata]

What If:
The car was $89,000
Had a 3.2 V6
6 speed manual
brakes that were out dated 13 years ago
Weighted 3150 lbs
Thats what a small number of people buy now
What makes anyone think this car is going to be different?
The current car was built to show what Honda could do.
How they could build a car with the newest tech, at the time.
A reasonable priced supercar, with Honda reliability.
The new car will be no different.
They are not building it to sell 10,000 a year.
They are not building it to make a huge profit on
They are not building it to sell for as low a price so large numbers of people can afford it.
It is Their show car, like the Ford GT, like the Enzo, like the Porsche GT.
It will be the best of current tech, a V6, V8, V10, V12 who cares, it is how the motor delivers power balanced against what the motor weights, and its size. Of course a V6 does not have the prestige, of a V8, V10, V12, but it certainly can have equal or better performance. What more important, is up to each individual.
Honda already builds a very nice pure sports car at a very good price, the S2000.
If you are not willing to pay $89,000 or more for it, the same that the current car costs, I think you will not be getting one.

 

[nsxtacey]

Whatever the sticker price is, the market price will be alot more when it first comes out.

 

[NetViper]

All this talk about turbo lag got me thinking...

Isn't VTEC almost like a turbo in that in low RPMS there is very little power... you have to wait for the rev's to go up before you get a lot of HP.

Isn't turbo about the same way? Only with turbo you can have full boost at 3000 RPM and pull hard to redline vs waiting until 5500 RPM..

Maybe i am way off..

 

[MAKO]

What If:
The car was $89,000
Had a 3.2 V6 blah blah blah

Hmmm, let me give you some more "What Ifs" since you seem so fond of them:

What if the Yen plummeted versus the dollar over the 12 years since the first car's intro making profits scarce and "halo cars" twice as costly as 1991?

What if every other manufacturer of sports cars upped their HP over that timespan by double what they were originally? Including the $50k Corvette?

What if Porsche was nearly finished with their next version of the Carrera, which will offer a 350HP V8 in a car that weighs as much as their current GT3?

What if the aforementioned Porsche 997 costs $20k less than the new NSX/HSC?

What if ZERO BUYERS show up for the new car which is just about how many show up for the current car?

Honda is treading on verrrrry dangerous ground if they're thinking of spending over $1B to re-tool, re-design, and re-introduce a $95k - $100k NSX. And I suspect that $1B figure is low considering how much engineering has to go into every little detail.

But the major issue I have still is that I haven't seen any evidence in 20 years that Americans will purchase a Japanese car that costs more than $70k. For argument's sake though, let's assume that this isn't an issue. That somehow Honda can overcome it. Even if this were to happen, once you go heavy into MB or BMW or Porsche territory the water gets awfully deep regardless of price.

Ferrari's own boutique marque, Maserati, is getting crushed in this sector, bad enough that they're thinking of selling it off to VW or another suitor. That should be a big red flag, particularly because Maser is a status-laden brand with a past.

I guess my feeling would be akin to what you're taught in marketing classes: Either go high or go low, but death lies in the middle. Ford is going high with their GT, Lotus is going low with the Elise, Honda cannot allow themselves to be caught in the middle once again, as they were with the first car.

 

[MAKO]

All this talk about turbo lag got me thinking...

Isn't VTEC almost like a turbo in that in low RPMS there is very little power... you have to wait for the rev's to go up before you get a lot of HP.

Isn't turbo about the same way? Only with turbo you can have full boost at 3000 RPM and pull hard to redline vs waiting until 5500 RPM..

Maybe i am way off..

You're not off, but with larger displacement engines the low end power problems with VTEC are largely transparant. That's why honda has no plans for i-VTEC on any of the V6s, it's just not necessary.

So the VTEC "lag" for lack of a better word, really only exists on the four cylinder models.

Regarding turbo lag: The hot rumor for a while with the next Nissan GT-R was the inclusion of electrically powered turbines, meaning that the turbos in the car would be kept charged and spinning at all times, thus reducing lag to nil.

It sounds good on paper, but a couple of mech engineers have explained to me that it's not a slam dunk by any means. Difficult to "power" the turbines.

Another way around lag centered on variable vane turbines, as well as ceramic turbines, however I believe the only cars to ever go into production with this type of setup were the very limited Buick GNX and subsequent Pontiac Trans-AM (1988, 1989) which both shared the same engine.

I have no problem with Honda using a turbo in the next NSX, if that's what they decide, because I'm sure they'd do it right.

I don't see too many people complaining about the 911 Turbo's engine, lol.

 

[2slow2speed]

Hmmm, let me give you some more "What Ifs" since you seem so fond of them:

What if Porsche was nearly finished with their next version of the Carrera, which will offer a 350HP V8 in a car that weighs as much as their current GT3?

What if the aforementioned Porsche 997 costs $20k less than the new NSX/HSC?

From what I have heard, the 997 does not make use of a V8, perhaps you are referring to the car that will be the spiritual successor to the 928, using the Cayenne's engine?

 

[Arata]

Hmmm, let me give you some more "What Ifs" since you seem so fond of them:

What if the Yen plummeted versus the dollar over the 12 years since the first car's intro making profits scarce and "halo cars" twice as costly as 1991?

The yen today 05/08/04 is 112.25 yen to the $
The yen on 01/01/91 was 135.03 yen to the dollar that would make the $60,000 car cost $81,018 today. add in some inflation and the start price of $60,000 and current price are the same.
Along way from double.

What if every other manufacturer of sports cars upped their HP over that timespan by double what they were originally? Including the $50k Corvette?[/B]

Is max HP the sole deterterminding factor in a sports car? Not to me. Was the 1991 corvette only 200HP? Looks to me you could get a 375HP motor.
ZTA: 350ci 245/250hp AT ZTC: 350ci 245/250hp AT, OC
ZTB: 350ci 245/250hp MT, OC ZTK: 350ci 375hp

What if Porsche was nearly finished with their next version of the Carrera, which will offer a 350HP V8 in a car that weighs as much as their current GT3?[/B]

Sounds like you are Blah blah blahing on the V8

What if the aforementioned Porsche 997 costs $20k less than the new NSX/HSC?/B]

Not likely, that would make it compete with the Boxter.

What if ZERO BUYERS show up for the new car which is just about how many show up for the current car??[/B]

Zero 2002 thru 2004 NSXs have been sold?? That will be news to the current owners.
Since we know a little over 400 a year are sold, lets compare that to the other cars I mentioned, the Enzo, Ford GT and Porsche
I think you will find the NSX sells in about the same numbers.

Honda is treading on verrrrry dangerous ground if they're thinking of spending over $1B to re-tool, re-design, and re-introduce a $95k - $100k NSX. And I suspect that $1B figure is low considering how much engineering has to go into every little detail.[/B]

Where did you get the 1 Billion figure??

Ferrari's own boutique marque, Maserati, is getting crushed in this sector, bad enough that they're thinking of selling it off to VW or another suitor. That should be a big red flag, particularly because Maser is a status-laden brand with a past..[/B]

Good comparsion, Maserati and Honda, both make tons of money selling sub $50,000, both always have great selling cars.
By the way when was the last time a Maserati sold well under any ownership? When was the last time Maserti made money under any ownership.