ITB and tuning the engine

[midNight Sun Xpress]

First of all: I am a ITB newbie, but have read some about the topic in different forums.
As I understand from the Prime, it will be necessary to tune the engine some after installation to make the setup run smoothly.
Is there a plug'n'play ITB setup to be found?

 

[docjohn]

some good reading here http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88166&highlight=individual+throttle+bodies

 

[midNight Sun Xpress]

Thanks Docjohn. I have alredy seen the thread and John made a great post on the topic, and I know he is thrustworthy in his comments.
Other states that ITBs are "doable" for streetuse without risking the engine to blow.
What I am asking is if there is a p'n'p setup to be found for the NSX where there is a minimum of tuning to be done after installation.
I still have not decided what route to go with my N/A tuning, but I am looking for both "go" and "show" as my car is occassionally tracked but also displayed at a few street car meetings during the season. I also consider AIS/test pipes/GTLW or F1 which is less expensive but more common.

 

[docjohn]

Talk to Chris at SOS he was designing an air box with filter to sit between the itb's and heads.Thats really the problem with itb's for the street,ballancing air filtration with plenum tuning,with reliability .I think he abandoned the whole thing.

 

[Tanto2]

Have you talked with Shad at Driving Ambition? He probably worked on the Spice car. Please let us know what you find out.

 

[midNight Sun Xpress]

Thanks Tanto2
I´ll see if I can reach him by e-mail. Air filtration should be possible to find a solution to, but I feel i am quite illitterate with ECU and tuning.

 

[BD]

To do ITB, ideally, you need a NA1/OBDI car with cable throttle. You will have to buy the ITB and individual injectors. Tuning will be a big issue; you really need to find some one who knows how to tune ITB. HKS was recommended to me by TODA Racing USA when I was looking into it.

You will also have issues with noise if you intend to drive it on the street.

 

[NSX R-GT]

i was looking for ITB setup too!
i can have this one build for about $8000
<img src="http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/data/869/DSC002201.jpg" />
this is better then the TODA kit, but no one in north america can "fine" tune ITB engines, also if you want ITB to drive on the street, just forget about it, it will never work!
difference race track require different tune for the ITB, so driving it on the street is impossible!
i have calculated the whole thing! tuning and all the parts required came to a total of $15000, for about 30-45whp gain, but still no good for street!
i was dreaming about this setup too...but...realistically...its not happening... :biggrin:
WAKE UP PEOPLE, NO ITB FOR US!:redface:

 

[midNight Sun Xpress]

I reckon you abandoned the idea? I don't quite get the tuning part: If you have an ECU preprogrammed for ITB, what kind of tuning is done on the engine afterwards?

 

[midNight Sun Xpress]

NSX R-GTs was posting when I hit the submit button. :smile:

Well, there are noone around here with the necessary competence in tuning. I though this was a plug&play and it was intended for mostly street use (although I do not drive more than 2-3000 miles per year.

 

[NSX R-GT]

all the injectors needs to be tune and also the angle of all 6 of the TB needs to be adjust according to difference setup!

unless this guy came to help, if not, it not gonna happen

i asked about bring this guy to help, its $80000 a 3 days trip!
if we can get 100 cars, it will be worth it! GROUP BUY???

 

[FastraxTurbo]

Tuned properly, ITBs can be very streetable with more linear throttle control. But you are not going to do this with a stock computer. Stand alone is almost a must, as engine mapping would be very poor on a speed density only ecu. The engie should be tuned by Alpha-N (throttle position) since there is very little vacuum available in the manifold. Best tuning would be by throttle with a map compensation table. Common issues would be idle control unless a balance tube is installed through all intake manifolds. SOS supposively has idle control with their ITBs, but I've never tested it. And power brakes. A vacuum tank should be installed to maintain consistent vacuum to the brake booster.

 

[ediddynsx]

There you have it the word by the man FastraxTurbo.

 

[NSX R-GT]

one more problem is about revving very fast!
the rev will go up so fast and you might not know when you over rev the engine which cause damage!!

i still have hopes, but i am on the east side! i wish someone on my side could have helped!

 

[midNight Sun Xpress]

Seems to be at lot of knowledge on this issue, as always on the Prime.
If you guys in US with access to a lot of tuning experts with experience from V6 and V8s can't solve this, it definitively can not be done here.
ITBs is the most good looking engine upgrade in my opinion. Now I start to realise why there are not many of those around. :smile:

But I do not give up, not yet...

 

[syam]

Tuned properly, ITBs can be very streetable with more linear throttle control. But you are not going to do this with a stock computer. Stand alone is almost a must, as engine mapping would be very poor on a speed density only ecu. The engie should be tuned by Alpha-N (throttle position) since there is very little vacuum available in the manifold. Best tuning would be by throttle with a map compensation table. Common issues would be idle control unless a balance tube is installed through all intake manifolds. SOS supposively has idle control with their ITBs, but I've never tested it. And power brakes. A vacuum tank should be installed to maintain consistent vacuum to the brake booster.

this is exactly correct. i ran into the same problems trying to tune/set up a custom itb system on a bike engine using a custom ecu. because of the lack of a plenum, or one that functions differently than a normal plenum, you must run throttle based fuel and spark tables. this, would seem like a good thing as the engine would be doing exactly what you want it to when you use your go foot. (as opposed to a manifold pressure trigger for engine response) the problem is this level of fine tuning takes so much time because you have to configure every cell in the fuel map. we had engine RPM and throttle position as our variables in a 12x12 table. we had the aid of datalogging units recording rpm, throttle position, air/fuel ratio, and a host of other things and it took more time than i care to remember to make the system driveable (probably only 10% configured correctly) i believe with an ecu like the AEM EMS, the table resolution is much higher (16x16? - 24x24?), thus being even more difficult. idle is also a problem as stated above that although we knew the theory behind how to hold a constant idle, and how to tune for it, we couldn't do it.

at least this was one of the problems we had.

in theory, if you had a very good machine shop to produce an itb setup (most should be able to, along with all the supporting hardware) and a very good tuner/automotive engineer, this should be a do-able project. it's been done on b18c's and f20/22 engines, so there is no reason it can't be done on an nsx...with the associated price of the setup and the gains to be achieved, that is a question you have to answer yourself.

 

[docjohn]

midnight,if the look of the itb is want you want ,then why not take pics to a metal fabricator and make a "mock" itb setup that just ataches to the thottle plate!:biggrin: Rice maybe but heck -bragging rights!:wink:

 

[swerve2007]

the 'tuning' of individual TB's can be done easily by any competent motorcycle tech. any inline-4 with carbs needs to have the tb's tuned to each other which is easily done with the use of mercury-filled gages- you just have to have one with 6 tubes to do it in this case. once that is done the rest of tuning is an ems adjustment which, granted, will take some effort.

 

[Ch@d]

this is exactly correct. i ran into the same problems trying to tune/set up a custom itb system on a bike engine using a custom ecu. because of the lack of a plenum, or one that functions differently than a normal plenum, you must run throttle based fuel and spark tables. this, would seem like a good thing as the engine would be doing exactly what you want it to when you use your go foot. (as opposed to a manifold pressure trigger for engine response) the problem is this level of fine tuning takes so much time because you have to configure every cell in the fuel map. we had engine RPM and throttle position as our variables in a 12x12 table. we had the aid of datalogging units recording rpm, throttle position, air/fuel ratio, and a host of other things and it took more time than i care to remember to make the system driveable (probably only 10% configured correctly) i believe with an ecu like the AEM EMS, the table resolution is much higher (16x16? - 24x24?), thus being even more difficult. idle is also a problem as stated above that although we knew the theory behind how to hold a constant idle, and how to tune for it, we couldn't do it.

at least this was one of the problems we had.

in theory, if you had a very good machine shop to produce an itb setup (most should be able to, along with all the supporting hardware) and a very good tuner/automotive engineer, this should be a do-able project. it's been done on b18c's and f20/22 engines, so there is no reason it can't be done on an nsx...with the associated price of the setup and the gains to be achieved, that is a question you have to answer yourself.

This is definitely true. I actually did this on a JDM 00' ITR Setup for my old Civic Hatchback.. Totally streetable setup with a good tuner. Here in So. Cal Shawn from Church's Automotive is a reputable tuner for all types of vehicles. I believe Hondata's new product S300 has tuning capability for really fine tuning ITB setup.

More Info and Pics....Click Here

Horsepower: 213whp 156tq.

Setup :
A'Sports ITB system - Direct bolton to ITR setup.
Hondata S200
Skunk2 Stg2 Cams
Skunk2 Valvetrain
Mugen Header

I'd love to do one of these setups in my NSX.

 

[BD]

one more problem is about revving very fast!
the rev will go up so fast and you might not know when you over rev the engine which cause damage!!

i still have hopes, but i am on the east side! i wish someone on my side could have helped!

There is a method we called "Tuning" and "Properly" tuned engine will have rev limiter just like the OEM set up.

ITB "can" be extremely street-able. Look at M3/M5. Those engine uses ITB.

 

[01blacks4]

Talk to Chris at SOS he was designing an air box with filter to sit between the itb's and heads.Thats really the problem with itb's for the street,ballancing air filtration with plenum tuning,with reliability .I think he abandoned the whole thing.

no, its still in the works...its a cool CF airbox.....

 

[David]

not even close. . . .

no one in north america can "fine" tune ITB engines, also if you want ITB to drive on the street, just forget about it, it will never work!
difference race track require different tune for the ITB, so driving it on the street is impossible!

This post is so completely ignorant that I don't even know where to start, but I'll hit the high points.

1) The tuners in America are every bit as good, if not better than the ones in Japan. American tuners consistently get more power than Japanese tuners working with the same motors. In fact, its hard to find a type of Japanese motor that isn't considerably further developed (in terms of aftermarket tuning) here than it is in Japan. There are probably as many Supras just here in Austin (a small town) with over a thousand whp than there are in most major Japanese cities. As another example, I have a friend who - many years ago - got almost 800hp out of a 3 rotor Mazda engine on his first try at building one and, the last time I was in Japan I couldn't find a single FD tuner who was even close to that. Hell, a couple of well-respected Japanese tuners told me it was impossible.

2) I have personally built very drivable street cars with ITBs and I am only an intermediate level tuner. There are a variety of issues to sort out, but when properly set up you get extremely crisp throttle response and a nice wide power band. Its not what I would recommend, but its certainly an option.

That said, on an nsx, I personally believe you could get the same results with fewer compromises with a well built custom intake manifold.

 

[NSX R-GT]

if you think my post is usless then don't read it! its totally fine with me!

here i am talking about "NSX" with ITB, not a cheap civic or turbo supra, do you even know how much power you could squeeze out from a NA nsx with ITB? it's way less then you little turbo suprAAA!
and i hope you did research on how much for a set of ITB for the NSX! you can do whatever with your car, but my point is the ITB is not worth the money and time, specially becasue we are in North America, we don't get much support from the company that made the ITB kit for NSX, which is TODA, Evolution....etc....they are all based in JAPAN!
SOS sells the ITB kit too, did you see anyone using it??? of coz you can drive it on the street, you can drive any track car on the street, but its LOUD, idle is not stable,....etc....ask Chris about their ITB kit! and ask him what ELSE you will have to buy along with the ITB!

if you think getting the ITB and tune it properly is that easy, i would love to see one! i am cheap and i can't afford the price tag on SOS's site, so i will wait for one of you to show me!

 

[syam]

you don't need to buy an ITB kit such as the revolution kit or the TODA kit. you can have a machine shop custom adapt a set from basically any bike intake setup. an itb setup from a bike is not very expensive, but takes some creativity to adapt it to any setup, ie a b18c, f20/22 setup, nsx setup. The difference in custom making a setup for an nsx is the same planning and creativity without the insane pricetag associated with the 'already made kits'.

with the right know-how and some creativity, the setup can be done for much cheaper than you think, but as i stated before, it is the tuning that is killer, as the amount of time needed is well into the double digits (hours) in dyno time or a very patient tuner with a laptop making changes all day while driving around (not to say anything about breaking speed limits and everything).

i can see, if you had a kit custom made by a machine shop with all the bells and whistles to be comparable in quality and function to the name brand japanese kits, it could be done for less then those kits cost msrp. now double that price dyno/street tuning/troubleshooting, and there you go.

again, the cost/hp ratio is a debate for another thread, another time. it's completely up to the individual. if you've done everything to your engine already (anil's 3.8L stroker comes to mind), spending some more $X,XXX to free up those last few hp shouldn't really be an issue.

 

[BD]

if you think my post is usless then don't read it! its totally fine with me!

here i am talking about "NSX" with ITB, not a cheap civic or turbo supra, do you even know how much power you could squeeze out from a NA nsx with ITB? it's way less then you little turbo suprAAA!
and i hope you did research on how much for a set of ITB for the NSX! you can do whatever with your car, but my point is the ITB is not worth the money and time, specially becasue we are in North America, we don't get much support from the company that made the ITB kit for NSX, which is TODA, Evolution....etc....they are all based in JAPAN!
SOS sells the ITB kit too, did you see anyone using it??? of coz you can drive it on the street, you can drive any track car on the street, but its LOUD, idle is not stable,....etc....ask Chris about their ITB kit! and ask him what ELSE you will have to buy along with the ITB!

if you think getting the ITB and tune it properly is that easy, i would love to see one! i am cheap and i can't afford the price tag on SOS's site, so i will wait for one of you to show me!

So you believe every thing Chris tells you?


BTW, we do get the support, the only problem is USA is pertty big, if the authorized/certified tuners are here in LA area, and you live in NY, yeah, you will have to spend some big bucks just to truck the car over.

Unless you absolutely know the fact, every thing you post will be based on "so and so told me" and it is without credibility.

The author of this thread is seeking information, please don't mislead him.