Love Fab Vs Ctsc

[ChitownNSX]

I know that this has been beaten to death on the boards, but I am going to be pulling the trigger on the FI idea on my 2003 NSX here this year.

LOVEFAB
400 WHP, 12k out the door installed. (budget system)
Includes Exhaust and Headers, AEM, and Tuning. Its creator is only 4 hours away for any issues or problems. Room to grow with more power as the wallet allows for it to in the future.

CTSC (auto Rotor)
350WHP, 10k investment out the door installed.
Still needs Exhaust, headers, HF Cats, High Boost kit and AEM to get the true potential of the system realized for another 6k installed and tuned. Big thing with this system is that it passes emissions, is this true?

Both of these systems need a new clutch to hold the power.

In my own mind the Love Fab turbo set up wins this comparison by quite a bit! What Am I missing, leaving out or uninformed about while making this decision?

Joe

 

[ken sampson]

What is missing is maybe not everyone wants a turbo charged car. I have had all kinds of turbo cars and this time I wanted an SC car. It was not about the money at all.

 

[BioBanker]

If you have to deal with emissions, you need to specify if you have a sniffer or if the tester plugs in and looks for a CEL light.

If you have a sniffer, unless you want to be a guinea pig and grab a turbo with a cat option that is currently under development, you have no choice. CTSC.

I am running the base autorotor kit and it has worked well for me. I have strict emmissions and its never been an issue. I do not have engine managment with the base kit. I am running the stock clutch with a taitec exhaust and the cantrel scoop and comptech uni filter. I dyno'd at 360whp on my 02. You do not need headers with your 03 and a CTSC.

Some other things to consider:

Decide on the type of power band you want. CTSC is just like stock, but 50% more everywhere.

Decide if you will ever want to get into internal mods of the engine, if not, then the "room to grow" with the turbo is off the table

Decide if you want to have a hassel free system or not. if hassel free is critical, your best bet is base autorotor. If it isnt critical, then higher boost autorotor or the lovefab is on the table

If I were doing it again today, and I didnt have as strict emmissions as I do, I would be biased toward a turbo option. But my base CTSC has been 100% reliable and hassel free and it gives me no emmissions headaches and it has produced great usable power. That said Im thinking of upping the boost to over 400 whp myself.

 

[David]

Unless you live on the left coast with its socialist emissions laws, the turbo wins hands down. You will have more power across the entire band, room to grow in the future with few changes besides the tune and the system already includes all of the stuff you really ought to add to the CTSC anyway. BTW, when it comes to a sniffer, you can tune the turbo system to give you better emissions than you will get with the base CTSC kit.

Best of luck with your project.

 

[BioBanker]

BTW, when it comes to a sniffer, you can tune the turbo system to give you better emissions than you will get with the base CTSC kit.

How is that possible without any cats?

 

[Greg Z]

LOVEFAB
400 WHP, 12k out the door installed. (budget system)
Includes Exhaust and Headers, AEM, and Tuning. Its creator is only 4 hours away for any issues or problems. Room to grow with more power as the wallet allows for it to in the future.



Joe

12K out the door. When I checked on there site it was like 15K just for the kit?

 

[ChitownNSX]

12K out the door. When I checked on there site it was like 15K just for the kit?

Check the site again. They have a budget system available too. Trades ball Bearing Turbo for one that is not as well as a few of the AEM add ons to bring the price down. I also can get a 1000$ credit if they use my OEM Headers and not the Cantrell ones.

 

[PhiAlpha44]

I'm looking at this budget system as well Chitown. And then in the future upgrading parts to the 1st love fab system, which I'm pretty sure still doesn't require upgrading internal engine parts.

 

[David]

How is that possible without any cats?

It wouldn't in CA, but when I built my first turbo car, I had the Motec installed up in Dallas (at the time there was no sniffer testing in Austin) so just for giggles I ran it by the station and had them test it with my 'low emissions' map running. They passed it - at that time the exhaust from the turbo back consisted of two and a half feet of 3" pipe and a tip.

For those of you in more Orwellian states, I believe SoS is working on a cat set for it. In any case, I can't imagine it would be hard at all to fab a simple cat insert to use for testing. It wouldn't really matter where it was in the system, as long as you brought it up to temp before the test. I have run them both pre and post turbo on several cars with no trouble passing emissions. If it is intrusive, I set it up like a test pipe so that it is easy to pull in and out of the system.

The basic point is, unless you are unfortunate enough to live in a state with oppressive emissions laws, the turbo is by far a better option than the CTSC. I've owned both and would not do the blower again.

 

[ChitownNSX]

I'm looking at this budget system as well Chitown. And then in the future upgrading parts to the 1st love fab system, which I'm pretty sure still doesn't require upgrading internal engine parts.

This was going to be my upgrade path as well phialpha. The upgraded parts wont net any more peak horse power, but they will allow the turbo to spool about 400 RPM sooner to peak boost. Is this worth 4.5k more??? I am sure there is more to it than that, the upgraded kit is more designed around working with a modified motor and making more than 500 whp.

Cody says there are other things they can do to move the power curves around to your likeing too.

 

[Vega$ NSX]

Just my opinion, if you are lucky enough to have a compentent tuner and installer near by, take advantage of it. That's why I went with Factor X and my FX500. The only caveat is that you may get reliant on that tuner. If they disappear, so goes a lot of knowledge and history of your build. That's why I keep a shock collar and cryogenic freeze around Mikey at Factor X all the time. :tongue:

 

[nsxotic911]

Just my opinion, if you are lucky enough to have a compentent tuner and installer near by, take advantage of it. That's why I went with Factor X and my FX500. The only caveat is that you may get reliant on that tuner. If they disappear, so goes a lot of knowledge and history of your build. That's why I keep a shock collar and cryogenic freeze around Mikey at Factor X all the time. :tongue:

Ditto. If there is a close knowledgable tuner that you trust won't blow up your engine, give that considerable more weight than a setup where you don't have a tuner or he's very far away. Like me, Autowave is 1500 miles away...

 

[nsxman2001]

I was wondering with the lovefab or any turbo system. how do u get around the Emissions if they plug into the OBD port to check for Check engine Light?

 

[WOODY]

Check the site again. They have a budget system available too. Trades ball Bearing Turbo for one that is not as well as a few of the AEM add ons to bring the price down. I also can get a 1000$ credit if they use my OEM Headers and not the Cantrell ones.

Do yourself a favor and check out the dyno from Devin Pearce's car and compare it to my own. Devin used aftermarket headers and I stayed with the stock headers on my 2000. The result is a gradual torque decline at the top end that is minimal and it saves you $1500 or so.
here is mine http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=27404&d=1151074555

I was wondering with the lovefab or any turbo system. how do u get around the Emissions if they plug into the OBD port to check for Check engine Light?

If he uses the AEM FIC the obd II system should still be functioning normally, but not sure what the effect of losing the cats would be.

 

[RON98]

I know that this has been beaten to death on the boards, but I am going to be pulling the trigger on the FI on my 2003 NSX here in the spring.

LOVEFAB
400 WHP, 12k out the door installed. (budget system)
Includes Exhaust and Headers, AEM, and Tuning. Its creator is only 4 hours away for any issues or problems. Room to grow with more power as the wallet allows for it to in the future.

CTSC (auto Rotor)
350WHP, 10k investment out the door installed.
Still needs Exhaust, headers, HF Cats, High Boost kit and AEM to get the true potential of the system realized for another 6k installed and tuned. Big thing with this system is that it passes emissions, is this true?

Both of these systems need a new clutch to hold the power.

In my own mind the Love Fab turbo set up wins this comparison by quite a bit! What Am I missing, leaving out or uninformed about while making this decision?

Joe

go turbo.

 

[TURBO2GO]

What is missing is maybe not everyone wants a turbo charged car. I have had all kinds of turbo cars and this time I wanted an SC car. It was not about the money at all.

Same for me. I did not want to change the essential driving characteristics of the NSX.

Each has its pluses. If you drag more or care more about hard acceleration and more torque, get the turbo. If you want a very smooth power band that gives you more from idle to redline, get the CTSC. Having Cody close to you is a huge plus, but consider what you want your car to drive like FIRST.

Also, if you are going to do AEM "to get the true potential" of the CTSC then you may as well run the smaller pulley, injectors and pump and get your 400HP. Otherwise there really is no need for the AEM. The stock CTSC system runs very well and is VERY reliable.

If I were you, I would call Shad at Driving Ambition and talk to him before you do anything.

 

[stuntman]

Same for me. I did not want to change the essential driving characteristics of the NSX.

Both ruin the balance of the NSX

If you drag more or care more about hard acceleration and more torque, get the turbo.

Turbos seem to work okay for road racing:wink:

 

[nsxman2001]

Do yourself a favor and check out the dyno from Devin Pearce's car and compare it to my own. Devin used aftermarket headers and I stayed with the stock headers on my 2000. The result is a gradual torque decline at the top end that is minimal and it saves you $1500 or so.
here is mine http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=27404&d=1151074555

I was wondering with the lovefab or any turbo system. how do u get around the Emissions if they plug into the OBD port to check for Check engine Light?

If he uses the AEM FIC the obd II system should still be functioning normally, but not sure what the effect of losing the cats would be.

So Can the AEM FIC work with the Original Lovefab system? If no can u explain why?

thanks for all the information I'm still learning about turbos

 

[jdnsx]

Both ruin the balance of the NSX




Stuntman,

I have not seen a quote from you that I would disagree with concerning the performance characteristics of the NSX but you need to justify the above statement. For years here people have talked about how well the twin-screw charger has meshed with the natural power curve of the NSX on and off the track. Please expand on your thoughts.

Joe

 

[WOODY]

So Can the AEM FIC work with the Original Lovefab system? If no can u explain why?

thanks for all the information I'm still learning about turbos

FIC is good for OBD II, otherwise go with full AEM ECU for OBD I

 

[Cody@LoveFab]

Obviously I'm biased on the subject :biggrin:

The AEM FIC is the only tuning system that we use to run the OBDII NSX. If you drive a 1995 and newer NSX, the FIC will be used. It has performed flawlessly time and time again and continues to blow my mind. Yesterday we logged around 300 miles to and from the dyno, AND put down 430whp on a stock 2002 engine. The customer will be running 100octane fuel so I felt it was OK to push things a little further than I normally would. The car drives just like a factory-tuned Honda should. The exception of course is when you lay into the throttle in 3rd gear and things suddenly get blurry. :wink:

Emissions...this is a fun topic. Chris at ScienceofSpeed has expressed interest in designing a 49 state smoggable "supplement" to our existing turbo system. You may want to contact Chris to see what he has up his sleeve.

If and when I get my 1995 up and running on the stock motor, I plan on building a "Budget kit" and testing a few different things of my own.

Don't hesitate to contact me should you have any questions at all.

Thanks,

-Cody

 

[stuntman]

I have not seen a quote from you that I would disagree with concerning the performance characteristics of the NSX but you need to justify the above statement. For years here people have talked about how well the twin-screw charger has meshed with the natural power curve of the NSX on and off the track. Please expand on your thoughts.

Joe

It was sarcasm.

Yes a twin screw shifts the relatively flat torque curve of the NSX up as well as shifting up (and steepening) its linear power curve. = Just like adding more displacement. So the car's characteristics are the same, except it has more much needed HP. A HP level that the car should have come from the factory with.

A lot can go wrong with turbos. Incorrect turbo sizing, improper tuning, improper installation of leaky oil lines, etc... Through years of R&D and copying people who have done the R&D, most of the systems out there are in the ballpark for proper sizing. Tuning and execution of the installation (turbo lines, etc...) is a case-by-case, shop-by-shop basis on quality.

Depending on the turbo's sizing (if proper) you can have a car that feels like a big V8 with instantaneous torque and low-mid range power. Or you can have a car that pulls from mid-range and has power that never ends (and really hauls @$&.


Turbos require a lot more complex and require more aspects to be in line to work ('properly' -IMO). Superchargers are a lot simpler, easier to install, and harder to goof-up.

Driving:
Superchargers - like the NSXs engine characteristics with more power. Instant throttle response and again, just feels like more displacement
Turbocharger - when properly done, can feel like an American-muscle V8 or have never-ending power that pulls to redline. Turbo sizing and execution affects everything. But a properly done system will be just as driveable as a supercharger system.

Niether 'ruins' the 'balance' of the NSX. IMO they both add much needed power to an amazing platform. Both require you to modify your line and driving style a little to compensate for the added power.

Turbos have proven to be successful in sports car racing for decades. They are now recently proven successful in road racing on NSXs. I think they are a blast on the street and the stereotypical: "lag, no throttle response, snap oversteer, undriveable" characteristics are mostly laid to rest, although few (often those who never driven one) like to bring up these non-issues.

0.02

 

[RON98]

i like my cars with rediculously large turbos for displacement so i get 2-3krpm of bliss.

if you have turbo lag, your in the wrong gear.:tongue:

 

[ChitownNSX]

Stunt Man

Thank you for that informative opinion, I appreciate it.

Can the comptech (auto rotor) be built up to have 400WHP?

I have owned 2 turbo cars before...
Mitsu Evo VIII that ran flat 12.1's
VW GTI 337 Auto cross car

Supercharged cars
2003 Chevrolet Silverado SS 364 ci small block w magna charger.


I have never had a manual car with a blower, only a turbo, the lag never bothered me in a turbo, but the Evo was really slow on the highway up at speed, but was a rocket from 0-80. Small turbo, instant boost, power to be desired uptop. Much like an american V8

The GTI was the opposite. as it was really quick on the highway but kind of a dog around town under 40 mph.

 

[swerve2007]

"i like my cars with rediculously large turbos for displacement so i get 2-3krpm of bliss.

if you have turbo lag, your in the wrong gear."

noting the sarcasm i must say:

EXACTLY- in search of big HP a lot of people seem render their cars undriveable. just like in the 'recently posted' video of an 'owner designed' system, nothing happens until the car hits 5500 rpm and then it bounces off the rev limiter within 2 seconds. the smoothness of the car is sacrificed not even mentioning lap times or safety- imagine cornering in the wet- no thanks! if you really want a drag car with ungodly power then buy a drag car and save yourself aggrevation.