1st Annual NSX Shootout Update June 3rd-6th

[MiamieNeSeX]

Did anyone with a competitors FI ever confirm?

Armando

 

[Sig]

To be perfectly honest the shootout was a complete waste of time! I, along with a few friends flew out to vegas just for the shootout. We arrive at the drag strip friday night and there was only one NSX there(Factor X). I give them credit for being there but there were no other X owners there. That was the first complete bust.

I talked to the guys from Factor X and they said they had already made a few passes in the 11.5 - 11.7 range. I asked what the trap speeds were, they said 125 - 126. Later I witnessed one run by them and it was a 12.5 @ 121mph.

I asked them what the plan was for the next day(saturday) and all I got was a shrug and they said they would open up around 10:30 - 11 ish am. So we show up to the shop around 12:30 pm.... no one. Lights were off no one there. We knocked, we called, we drove around back... nothing.

I just feel that if there is a planned event for the weekend and that they said they would be there.... that they should be. So basically we went to LV, talked to them for five minutes, watched one run on the track and that was the shootout. Needless to say I have much better things to do with my time and $. It was a complete letdown.

Saturday was called off because no one else showed up with their cars. It's difficult to hold a canyon drive without the cars. At the 1/4 mile test and tune, I personally spoke with 5 to 6 other NSX owners..... 3 of which had their cars. As for the FI shootout, with only one FI system present.. it's not much of a shootout. I believe there were 20-30 people committed to be at the event... many with their cars. If 95% of the attendees that were bringing their vehicles back out.... is it really appropriate to lay blame on the host?

 

[xsn]

If 95% of the attendees that were bringing their vehicles back out.... is it really appropriate to lay blame on the host?

Chicken and egg..... Go look at the original thread and it looks like most people started backing out when the event was scaled back to not include a track event, not include many organized activities, and so on. Events like this have to be structured and planned in advanced or people will not make the effort to attend. Free dyno is a nice offer but it doesn't constitute an major event. Dyno time is cheap anyway and any metro area has dynos so it's not much reason to make a trip.

Has any one tracked one of these 500+ h.p. cars yet and if so how many days? Big dynos are great and of course a 500+ h.p. car hauls ass down the drag strip, but what's the real-world reliability and driveability at the track? It seems like many-to-most of the supercharger owners do track events but few turbo NSXs seem to and most of the ones who did it with the previous turbo systems had problems of some kind at the track after a while. So much is learned on the track.......

To me a real shootout would be to get all the manufacturer demo cars together and get a volunteer pro driver to take them each out for an hour or so with timing equipment.

 

[KGP]

I have a bit of a different take on this. If i could have attended, I would have looked forward to some NSX'r comraderie. Sure, we like to do some smack talking here and there, but I haven't met an NSX'r yet where losing a power number competition meant all that much to them. As to the other vendors not showing, no, it doesn't suprise me that CT or MB wasn't there. MB surely had to be either busy from his move, or recovering from being busy. Gerry - I kind of expected him to show up, A) because of the proximity, and B) When it comes down to it, there are only two FI vendors who measure up for big power. I'm sure he had good reason for not being there.

Now, vendors aside, why some of the FI NSX owners weren't there, I have no idea. Maybe it was because we're in the summer season; Too hot in Vegas, or maybe everyone has other things to do (like me). But to RSVP and not show...

As to Hrant's question of "what are we really measuring, what are the bragging rights for?"
D. Most usable power under/over the curve - whatever this means ...
Area under the curve is a significant measurement. Surely you understand the benefit of VTEC! Adapt that to FI. As far as bragging rights, I don't recall FX saying anything about that. I could, however, point towards some others who have talked about bragging rights. Even then, I'm sure it was done in forum fun. [More on ego's later]

I have to take your word in that the rest of the list was indeed written with good humor. That said, by having all the cars there at one time, on the same dyno, there could have been some very valuable information gained:
-IAT's under conditions not many NSX's ever see.
-Power delivered per lb of boost. (I see this one as very important)
-Discussion of engine management systems (assuming other FI vendors could have been there).
-Inspection of workmanship.
-A sharing, or discussion of systems, between owners after seeing other systems.

And, if you recall from way back when the shootout discusion started, my wish was that owners could have participated in some real world testing, using a G-cube, or similar instrument.

Why others didn't show doesn't really matter. What matters is that the NSX community lost an opportunity to get an apples to apples comparison. Who's to blame? Don't know and don't care. My apple has already been picked.

I can certainly understand MO's frustration. But I don't think he should be frustrated with FX. They had RSVP's, but none of them showed! He's a serious FI'r, and wanted to witness some action. Understandable.

I do know this: Our little city of StL has a great cross section of Fi'd NSX's: FX, GJTC, CTSC (6 and 9lb), Bell TT, Badcarma NOS car, and some primo NA coupes to use as a bench. All we need is a BBSC and we pretty much have it all. Even more importantly - none of the owners have egos that will prevent us all getting together to have our own little shootout. One of these track days we'll strap them up to the Dynapacks they have at our track, then we'll go out and play with the Vipers and 996TT's, and maybe later that day we'll get some real world measurements. After that's all done I'm going to have someone tote in a Turkish water bong, and we'll gather round that GFCP and take a pic for you primers to have a few laughs at.

What's funny is that I gave FX instructions that anyone who wanted a ride in my car, that they should be taken out in it. Hell, I was sitting around here worried about how many rides were being given.

 

[KGP]

Chicken and egg..... Go look at the original thread and it looks like most people started backing out when the event was scaled back to not include a track event

There were 19 RSVP's one month before the event, where it had already been scaled back. How many RSVP's after that, I don't know.

 

[xsn]

There were 19 RSVP's one month before the event, where it had already been scaled back. How many RSVP's after that, I don't know.

Any body who has organized events like that knows that if it's just a casual "show up and we'll do stuff" event it is usually a bust and most people who say they will be there don't make it because they give it low priority. If you have RSVPs and then scale an event way back many people will leave their RSVP in but mentally make it a lower priority as well.

If it is a structured event and offers something people consider worth attending for, and particularly if they had to send in a deposit, a lot higher percent of people who RSVP will show up. That is just human nature.

So I say it is still an organization problem. This is supported by the fact that people show up for other well organized NSX events.

Why others didn't show doesn't really matter.

I think it is important to understand why an event like this was a bust, since as you said it was a good opportunity for the NSX community that was lost. Hopefully by understanding why it did not work out it can be a leaning experience for future event organizers.

 

[len3.8]

I was going to the event as a spectator, simply because I knew my car wouldn't be ready... I knew others that were oing to the event that had the same issues... The date at the end conflicted with a lot of schedules... GJ, and I am not giving answers for him, has been busy as hell straightening out other people's messes on a lot of cars.... You have to formalize an event like this, it was done that way in it's infancy, but then it changed up... I am glad Factor X put it out there, no one can say they are not producing the numbers claimed. It was put out there to be witnessed, those that wanted to know were there.... Those that didn't show obviously could not make it...

AS KGP said.. We in the midwest plan on getting together for our own little comparo/celebration.. I could care less at this point, who has the most HP... It's been over a Year since I drove my car, and I just want to drive it, because I damn sure am still paying for it... one way or another... This time I think it will be done correctly. If not, I will do it again til I get it right!!!!

Why, because I am an ADDICT!!! Pass the F&c#in bong!!!!

 

[KGP]

If it is a structured event and offers something people consider worth attending for, and particularly if they had to send in a deposit, a lot higher percent of people who RSVP will show up. That is just human nature.

Yes, you're right. Perhaps some of the problem stems from the fact that FX has no experience is organizing events, and the freebie nature hurt. Perhaps next year than can co-sponsor something with MJ at the same time he holds his Parumph event.

I think it is important to understand why an event like this was a bust, since as you said it was a good opportunity for the NSX community that was lost.

Yes, I suppose I was speaking for myself, but the fact remains that interested parties who would have like to have seen comparisons can't.

 

[Yellow Rose]

Yeah, the same guy that complained about the buffet.

And the same guy that complained about a missing injector cover.

Event organizers always take the heat if something doesn't go right. One person wants steamed veggies but the other person wants them raw. Please one person at the expense of another, and the organizer will get complaints every time. Forget the injector cover and 92NSX posts to this forum asking for it back. Cripes it was accidentally left off and MB probably spent more in shipping vs you just going to a local Acura dealership.

I wasn't following this thread all that closely until it was pointed out that my name was mentioned (with the correct spelling ) as a possible BBSC representative. Respectfully, driving across four states for a dyno session is a bit much. Besides, a mega-HP "secret" BBSC'ed NSX was to have been there with new trinkets. Too bad it wasn't.

 

[KGP]

Besides, a mega-HP "secret" BBSC'ed NSX was to have been there with new trinkets. Too bad it wasn't.

Yea, who? Close enough to come to an StL gathering?

 

[91 X]

It's too bad that my excuse to go to Vegas turned out to be just that, "an excuse to go to Vegas"...Luckily for me it is only about a 4 hour drive, with lots of open highway and I had a great time at the casino's with my wife and teaching Nick and Eric(Applied Motorsports) how to rule the black jack table otherwise the event itself was a complete bust...It was nice meeting Sig, Steven Lee from Hawaii and the guys from Factor X though..cool guys...Next time they should set up some NSX ONLY type events such as 1/4 mile for the FI peeps and an autocross and other stuff for the 90% of us with N.A. to do...I know it's easier said then done, but where there is a will there is a way...But oh well, it's Vegas and I had fun anyway...

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

Yea, who? Close enough to come to an StL gathering?

 

[4AU4LIFE]

Forget the injector cover and 92NSX posts to this forum asking for it back. Cripes it was accidentally left off and MB probably spent more in shipping vs you just going to a local Acura dealership.[/B]

FYI, if the injector cover had been the OEM plastic one it would not have been a big deal.
BUT, it was an aluminum one and MB specifically told me that he would trim and that next day and have it ready to ship right after that. I honestly didn't expect him to stop installing the SC's just for my piece but I appreciated the fact that he said he would. However it tooks several months of asking about it before I ever saw it again. If you are not going to follow thru and do something then don't lie and say you will. If I had been told that it would be a few weeks then I would've said 'fine'....but I wasn't told that.
And I'm sure everyone will get a kick out of this but I don't even have it anymore. I let it go with the sale of the BBSC.
One more thing, I like mine steamed.

 

[sjs]

...It seems like many-to-most of the supercharger owners do track events but few turbo NSXs seem to and most of the ones who did it with the previous turbo systems had problems of some kind at the track after a while...

Can you offer actual statistics and examples for either of those claims? I doubt whether "most" SC cars are tracked, and many of those that are have had problems. As for turbos, there have been so few until recently that there is little data available, so I'd like to know exactly which ones have had problems at the track. Add to that the fact that older turbos have zero relevance to current ones using proper fuel and timing control.

These are the type of loose generalities that bug the living crap out of me. They typically come from people with little if any hard data much less first-hand experience, yet if left unchallenged they are likely believed by otherwise uninformed readers.

 

[KGP]

These are the type of loose generalities that bug the living crap out of me. They typically come from people with little if any hard data much less first-hand experience, yet if left unchallenged they are likely believed by otherwise uninformed readers.

A-friggen-men.

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

Add to that the fact that older turbos have zero relevance to current ones using proper fuel and timing control.

That would apply to SC cars also wouldn't it?


Armando

 

[apapada]

As for turbos, there have been so few until recently that there is little data available, so I'd like to know exactly which ones have had problems at the track. Add to that the fact that older turbos have zero relevance to current ones using proper fuel and timing control.

Mine did when it had the Aerodyne turbos. At the time DONYMO was the owner.

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

You can say we were a bit disappointed when the owners of “other” various FI set-ups did not show after confirming with us prior to the event. This however, did not stop us from having an amazing time at the track with some other fellow NSXers that flew out to visit. To make up for the lack of participation and the fact that these individuals flew in from various parts of the country we decided to let them actually pilot the FX500 down the track.

During the dyno day we posted approximately 600rwhp. This was during the 12pm-2pm with temperatures in the 100+ range. The conditions this past weekend were very harsh to say the least.

During the ¼ mile racing we were approached by Spike TV for a new reality show they were shooting. They followed us throughout the night watching our quest for 10’s on street tires. Although we did not hit the mark (yet), we did trap a best 129mph, with the Spike TV camera guy in the car. In addition to the racing, Spike will be at our facility filming the FX500 on the Dynapacks in the near future.

It was a tough track to run that night due to the climate (Hot thin air at elevation). To put it into perspective as Sig had posted a GT3 was only running around the 109mph, an 04 Viper was running around the 114mph, and R1’s and CBR’s running low 120s. We ran neck and neck with an R1 with us losing boost on the top end.

For those that missed out this past weekend, we will be running the FX500 again during the NHRA sport compact series on July 16-17. In addition to the ¼ mile racing, there will also be a Dynojet there for the horsepower challenge. If we can get her to stay on the Dynojet it will be interesting to see what it will read.

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

Well said. Just as an fyi, we were hoping to have this done at NSXPO 2003 and had high expectations and commitments from most vendors - but it did not pan out.

As much as we all love to see this test done one day, here is some info perhaps many missed. I am not offering any excuses or even assume that these were the reasons why the others did not show, just observations.

1. Basch/SoS just relocated their shop so I am sure their immediate priorities are elsewhere.

2. Comptech's trailer and Shad were at Infineon racing. Two of their other crew were at the annual S2000 gathering in Elk Grove (south Sacramento). Elk Grove is their turf.

3. If you checked DaliRacing's website, he was on his annual pilgrimage visiting the Oracle for several days.

4. Gery Johnson? Well, I don't know about his details ..... last I read he was flying around the country doing custom instalations/tuning.

Did I leave anyone else out?

Like many of you, I too am patiently waiting to see this day come, and hopefully without any excuses as to whose tuning was not right, whose fuel management malfunctioned, that the local gas is not the same as the one near the shop when the car was tested in the shop, and the clutch was slipping but with a different clutch/plate or whatever the results will be different, who was expecting what part to arrive but the supplier did not send it on time, and the car was setup for this altitude but not that latitude, or the black box developed an unexplainable gremlin on the way ......... Personally, I think half the fun is reading the excuses

But after all the numbers, and Dyno numbers are only numbers, what are we really measuring, what are the bragging rights for?

A. Highest peak HP - now we can argue at what RPM .....
B. Highest low end torque - ditto, everone likes a different RPM when they paid for it
C. Both A and B - for those who can't find their wi$h li$t .......
D. Most usable power under/over the curve - whatever this means ...
E. Fastest quarter mile - let's start a clutch war too while we are at it ......
F. Highest top speed ......... let me know where you are testing this, and let's start a speedo calibration day too .........
G. Fastest to the higest top speed ....... some may be delivering so time is of the essence
H. Numbers good for only one Dyno run after which the engine needs a rebuild but numbers don't lie ..........
I. Most streetable power; must have something with the local "curve" as one's streetability needs will be quite different from others ....
J. Most maintenance free - does it run on battery and if so is it rechargable?
K. Most reliable ............. now that should start a mini WW and keep the forum entertained for weeks.

OK, I have done my damage for the day - all in good humor

The participants that signed up for the event were not the vendors themselves but instead owners of the various products. We did however, state that all vendors are welcome. It is completely understandable that they did not show up as we understand the scheduling difficulties of a race shop.

In terms of performance and reliability we have confidence we would be near the top from A-Z. (Also in good humor) Many NA purists mock the FI guys, however once they feel the rush of FI they quickly change their mind.

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

To be perfectly honest the shootout was a complete waste of time! I, along with a few friends flew out to vegas just for the shootout. We arrive at the drag strip friday night and there was only one NSX there(Factor X). I give them credit for being there but there were no other X owners there. That was the first complete bust.

I talked to the guys from Factor X and they said they had already made a few passes in the 11.5 - 11.7 range. I asked what the trap speeds were, they said 125 - 126. Later I witnessed one run by them and it was a 12.5 @ 121mph.

I asked them what the plan was for the next day(saturday) and all I got was a shrug and they said they would open up around 10:30 - 11 ish am. So we show up to the shop around 12:30 pm.... no one. Lights were off no one there. We knocked, we called, we drove around back... nothing.

I just feel that if there is a planned event for the weekend and that they said they would be there.... that they should be. So basically we went to LV, talked to them for five minutes, watched one run on the track and that was the shootout. Needless to say I have much better things to do with my time and $. It was a complete letdown.

We definitely share your disappointment in the lack of involvement, especially since during the organization of the event we were catching so much grief for not setting a firm date. We did however, select a date with what we believed to be ample time for individuals that wished to participate.

In regards to Saturday, we apologize if you did not receive the message that we canceled due to lack of participants, this was announced on Friday during the Dynapack sessions.

Btw, the slowest time we recorded was by a fellow prime member with ZERO seat time. We literally threw him in the FX500 and said go for it. Considering he only drove it about 100 feet before the run he still clipped off an 11.9@123mph.

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

Interesting moments that I recall:

1)Steve from Hawaii hops in the FX NSX at 1:45am without ever touching the car before and rips off an 11.9 at 123mph. That was crazy, especially considering the fact that boost was impaired on the top end.

2) A rival Las Vegas tuner to FX lost his cool after losing to Mikey (who had the extra weight of a passenger at the time) He was yelling in the pits for over an hour afterwards.... classic.

3) A turbo CRX caught fire on the track after blowing a rod out of her car. She used to get here tuning done at FX, but chose to save some money and went elsewhere for her lastest set-up... oops.

4) Mikey in the FX NSX getting nosed out at the line by a bke e(either an R1 or R6).... the entire crowd was on their feet for that one. Mikey was reeling him in, but not being to hold full boost prevented him from passing.

5) Not seeing any of the street cars trap above 120mph except the FX NSX.... this list would include 3 or 4 turbo Supras, 4 or 5 of the new Mustang Cobras, a bunch of turbo DSM's and MR2's, Porsche Gt3, New Viper SRT-10, Turbo Integras + Civics, Turbo 350z, and a bunch of f-bodies.

6) Seeing the FX NSX get the lowest ET of all the street cars out that night. There was one vette on full slicks that looked pretty fast, but he elected not to show times. I'm sure it would have been close with him though.

6) Meeting some folks on the forums previously only known by their handle to me.... hope to see guys again soon.

Sig,

You forgot to add:

7) Us calling our office manager’s home and finding out...

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

Guess all of the other FI guys can talk, but were afraid to commit. I am glad that Factor-X was ready to bring it on! More power to you. Lets hope reliability is on your side.

Thanks TBell, so far so good. About 20k on the block, driver error has caused us to go into this one a few times, ie. Valves. It also gave us the opportunity to examine the pistons, and walls. As you already know, running FI on your car takes a bit more discipline in regards to maintenance and monitoring of your cars vitals. Driver error can be a cause for failure just as much as the producer’s work.

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

It's too bad that my excuse to go to Vegas turned out to be just that, "an excuse to go to Vegas"...Luckily for me it is only about a 4 hour drive, with lots of open highway and I had a great time at the casino's with my wife and teaching Nick and Eric(Applied Motorsports) how to rule the black jack table otherwise the event itself was a complete bust...It was nice meeting Sig, Steven Lee from Hawaii and the guys from Factor X though..cool guys...Next time they should set up some NSX ONLY type events such as 1/4 mile for the FI peeps and an autocross and other stuff for the 90% of us with N.A. to do...I know it's easier said then done, but where there is a will there is a way...But oh well, it's Vegas and I had fun anyway...

Big thanks for you and the guys from Applied Motorsports for coming out. Nick and Jason are class act guys all the way. We hope you had good luck at the tables. We will see you at the Canyon Ball at the end of the month.

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

Yea, who? Close enough to come to an StL gathering?

Depending upon the date we plan on being there, as we need to travel to Kentucky anyways for a few tuning jobs.

Btw, big thanks for letting us take a few clients in your FX500. We will detail the inside of your car before we transport it back

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

Any body who has organized events like that knows that if it's just a casual "show up and we'll do stuff" event it is usually a bust and most people who say they will be there don't make it because they give it low priority. If you have RSVPs and then scale an event way back many people will leave their RSVP in but mentally make it a lower priority as well.

If it is a structured event and offers something people consider worth attending for, and particularly if they had to send in a deposit, a lot higher percent of people who RSVP will show up. That is just human nature.

So I say it is still an organization problem. This is supported by the fact that people show up for other well organized NSX events.

I think it is important to understand why an event like this was a bust, since as you said it was a good opportunity for the NSX community that was lost. Hopefully by understanding why it did not work out it can be a leaning experience for future event organizers.

We have hosted events in the past with other clubs in a loose format without any problems. Hotel rooms were booked independently, the groups met up for drinks, and we did a few cruises down the strip. Typically we would either charge a flat rate for the dyno or a reduced price per pull.

We choose this format for a few reasons. One being the politically correct mess we saw at the NSXPO FI forum. We, as well as many people we spoke with, wanted a candid FI event where everyone could see what each kit had to offer without moderation. We agree that moderation is good, but outright censorship is bad.

Secondly, we wanted to offer the community a “free” event as a favor to all NSXers, not just the ones that are NSXCA members. Believe us we would much rather have charged for the event

And third, we know what we are making, some believe otherwise. What better than have to a no cost no excuses day to prove it.

If you have any other input please email them, so we can utilize it for the next NSX event.