97+ brake conversion

[Ponyboy]

No, but that's exactly the point - things ARE different at different corners. You know as well as I do that there are a lot of different parameters that can affect braking. Not every car uses the same brake pads at both ends. I'm trying different brake pad compounds all the time. And I don't change the compound at one end, when there's plenty of pad material, when the brake pad wears out at the other end. Do you? Have you always used the exact same compound at both ends of your car? I doubt it. Most track rats haven't.

I think we're miscommunicating a bit. If it's my fault, my bad. The point is that a properly designed big brake kit system for a given car doesn't need a proportioning valve. Period. That includes using the same brake pads and the same tires at all four corners. I think I've shown enough proof for that statement.

And I don't change the compound at one end, when there's plenty of pad material, when the brake pad wears out at the other end. Do you? Have you always used the exact same compound at both ends of your car? I doubt it. Most track rats haven't.

Nope, I don't change the backs and the fronts at the same intervals. If there's pad left, why change right? But I do realize that you don't want to mess up the balance of the car or have the rear lock up before the fronts. That means that in any combination the front pads should have a higher coefficient of friction than the rears. I haven't used the exact same compound at the track but only because I couldn't get the same from front to back. The lament of every track rat. But believe you me - if they make a track pad for the rear and they make a track pad for the front for my BBK, I'll be using the exact same compound on each corner.

I'll give you an example of another variable. I have brake cooling ducts to the front brakes on my NSX. Doesn't that mean that I have a different need for front-to-rear bias from an NSX that doesn't have such ducts? Doesn't that mean that I have a different need for front-to-rear bias from DanO's NSX that has ducting to the rear brakes? All of which results in the need for front-to-rear biasing that may be different from one car, to another car, to another car...

You're going to have to help me here Ken. I don't see the relation of cooling ducts to the coefficient of friction of brake pads and proper biasing of the car from the start. And if you do use brake pads to fine tune the braking balance of your NSX, tell me why you need a proportioning valve again?

First of all, that $325 figure is bogus.

Is it? I've known SoS to be very honest with me in the past. I don't think they'd lie about the content of their web site. Maybe if you find a better deal you can forward the information to them.

If you are going to put it that way, then you must also consider this - if $325 for a proportioning valve is a major expense for your bank account, then there's no way you would be considering $7-10K for a four-wheel big brake kit with bigger wheels and tires.

I don't think anybody wants to spend $325 bucks if they don't need to. And from experience, a properly designed front BBK will set you back around $5,500 total. Wheels, brakes, and tires.

Why, so you could put twice as much pollution into the environment?

Pollution is legal in Oklahoma. Well, this kind anyway.

That's nonsense, for the reasons noted above.

I'm kind of surprised at your response, Ponyboy - you're usually more knowledgeable about these things...

Again, research and testing have everything to do with it. Thanks for the compliment, I think. Even in this discussion, I still think you're one cool guy. And yes, I am knowledgeable somtimes and sometimes not. I think I'm right on this one. But if you can out engineer the brake companies, more power to you.

 

[Ponyboy]

How brake research and testing is useful

Necessity of rear brakes?

 

[nsxtasy]

I haven't used the exact same compound at the track but only because I couldn't get the same from front to back. The lament of every track rat. But believe you me - if they make a track pad for the rear and they make a track pad for the front for my BBK, I'll be using the exact same compound on each corner.

Which means that the front-to-rear bias, before you found a matching pad, would be different from the front-to-rear bias, after you found a matching pad. Hence the need for the adjustment. Thanks for agreeing with the example I provided, and confirming that the bias can change due to the availability (or not) of various pads at both ends of the car.

if you do use brake pads to fine tune the braking balance of your NSX, tell me why you need a proportioning valve again?

Oh, please! You can say silly things all you want, but please don't claim that I said something I never said. I never said that I (or anyone else) use different brake pads with the objective of changing the braking balance. What I said was that using different brake pads can have the effect of changing the brake balance. Do you agree, or disagree, with that statement? Yes or no, without rewording it to make it sound silly.

I don't think anybody wants to spend $325 bucks if they don't need to. And from experience, a properly designed front BBK will set you back around $5,500 total. Wheels, brakes, and tires.

Okay, help me out here, Ponyboy, because it seems like you are contradicting yourself. One minute you are talking about using the same pads and wheels and tires and setup at both ends of the car, that the brake kit manufacturer is designing a setup for both axles. The next minute, you are quoting a price for a front-only big brake kit. You sound like a politician! Which are you making claims for? Front only, or four wheels? If you're talking about a kit that allegedly thinks it knows how the front-to-rear bias needs to be set, then I can only assume you're talking about a kit for both ends - so then we should be talking about pricing that kit, not a front-only kit.

Pollution is legal in Oklahoma. Well, this kind anyway.

Lovely...

 

[nsxtasy]

How brake research and testing is useful

Okay... am I the only one who is shocked to hear that the stock rotors (front or rear) for the 350Z track model cost $500 EACH???

 

[Ponyboy]

This is fun!

Which means that the front-to-rear bias, before you found a matching pad, would be different from the front-to-rear bias, after you found a matching pad. Hence the need for the adjustment. Thanks for agreeing with the example I provided, and confirming that the bias can change due to the availability (or not) of various pads at both ends of the car.

Your welcome. Ha! But the statement still stands - a properly designed BBK doesn't need a proportioning valve - you know the whole topic of the past few posts. If you can't find the ideal in same brake pads, you do what you have to do - mix and match and find the best combo.

Oh, please! You can say silly things all you want, but please don't claim that I said something I never said. I never said that I (or anyone else) use different brake pads with the objective of changing the braking balance. What I said was that using different brake pads can have the effect of changing the brake balance. Do you agree, or disagree, with that statement? Yes or no, without rewording it to make it sound silly.

Haha! I think you're getting all worked up over a simple question. Count to thirty and answer the question you quoted. Perhaps worded this way the question won't make you so defensive: if ONE uses brake pads to fine tune brake balance, tell me again why ONE needs a proportioning valve?

What question would you like me to answer:

1. Whether you said people use different brake bads to change brake bais? Objective
2. Whether you said the use of different brake pads will change brake bais? Effect

Knowing the effect results in the objective, achieving a proper braking balance. And what's with "all this you said I said" stuff? I thought we were having a good discussion.

Do you agree, or disagree, with that statement? Yes or no, without rewording it to make it sound silly

If I sound like a politician, you sound like a lawyer.

Okay, help me out here, Ponyboy, because it seems like you are contradicting yourself. One minute you are talking about using the same pads and wheels and tires and setup at both ends of the car, that the brake kit manufacturer is designing a setup for both axles.

You can call me Pone or Shawn from now on. If you thought I was contradicting myself, please forgive me. Same PADS, same compound of TIRE, different calipers (front BBK and rear OE) I haven't been persuaded of the added advantages of a rear BBK yet. Since the main reason for a BBK is for the added advantage of a much larger heatsink, I think I'll just duct the rears before even thinking about buying the rear BBK.

If you're talking about a kit that allegedly thinks it knows how the front-to-rear bias needs to be set, then I can only assume you're talking about a kit for both ends - so then we should be talking about pricing that kit, not a front-only kit

Wow, the "allegedly" comment is certainly out there. Do you think the big brake companies are out to get you? What the engineers are trying to do is maintain the stock f/r brake bias while using a much bigger heatsink. I wonder where they get that f/r bias information? Could it be Mother Honda? And wouldn't Mother Honda know what the best f/r brake ratio is even if the brake engineers couldn't figure it out? I think so?

If you want to quote $7-10K that's fine. But I'll quote $5,500 for a front BBK. But the statement still stands, a proportioning valve ($325) is still an added expense. And an unneeded one at that.

Lovely...

<== reaping the rewards of a state desperately wanting big polluting businesses! FWIW, I do send my used oil to the O'Reilly's down the street.

Okay... am I the only one who is shocked to hear that the stock rotors (front or rear) for the 350Z track model cost $500 EACH???

I am. Hope those rotors last a long time.

 

[ncdogdoc]

If that is the case, then why do we not use a proportioning valve on our stock cars, as all the things you mentioned would affect the stock setup just like it would an aftermarket setup.

The thing I have always wondered about is the fact that the NSX uses a diagonal setup for brakes, so that if pressure is lost from one portion of the master cylinder, you still have braking in both a front and rear wheel. How do you put a proportioning valve into this setup? (Strange but true brake trivia - you should bleed diagonally, not rear then front - check your manuals)

BTW, cooling will not have an effect on brake bias, just on fade, which is very different than hydraulic pressure across the pad surface.

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

We do not use proportioning valve in our cars because they don't work well with the ABS system.

From my experience, the NSX require more rear brakes than any other car. I can only verify this under track use.

I've driven almost any big brake setup except Tarox and new comers. I can safely say that the brembo by comptech is the best so far.

Oya, the comment about you don't need big brake if you can still lock up your tires is not entirely true. The key in racing is brake modulation. With big brakes, brake modulation become much easier, thus you control the car better, resulting in better and more consistent lap time.

Same thing with power steering. Less work, and steering wheel input is more precise.

 

[Tantheman]

Sherwin at Brakezone.com

Just had my rear bbk installed.

Sherwin and his knowlege and expertise is unrivaled when it pertains to brake kits. Brembos, Wilwood, Stoptech, Endless, etc..he knows em well pros and cons.

Tan

 

[JJCNSX]

has anyone taken their nsx to track and brake hard and often enough to make them FADE?

i was told that nsx brake rarely fade, even on track, and 97 on brake would almost NEVER fade.. If that is the case, then, i dont see why ppl need to fork out that kinda money for big break upgrade.

i really like my 97+ brakes, it feels like my buddy's brembo, and very responsive (crispy/instant brake). My supra tt 12.6" f brake are good; however, they have this "sponge" feel, most supra owners hate it. This belong in a lexus, not a performance car.. anyways.

unless you are track freak, and need to save weight for better throttle response.. and/or bragging right, i dont really see why ppl need anything more than stock or 97on brake..

-jjc.

 

[2slow2speed]

has anyone taken their nsx to track and brake hard and often enough to make them FADE?

i was told that nsx brake rarely fade, even on track, and 97 on brake would almost NEVER fade.. If that is the case, then, i dont see why ppl need to fork out that kinda money for big break upgrade.

i really like my 97+ brakes, it feels like my buddy's brembo, and very responsive (crispy/instant brake). My supra tt 12.6" f brake are good; however, they have this "sponge" feel, most supra owners hate it. This belong in a lexus, not a performance car.. anyways.

unless you are track freak, and need to save weight for better throttle response.. and/or bragging right, i dont really see why ppl need anything more than stock or 97on brake..

-jjc.

JJC,

Almost all of the folks who track their cars seriously will tell you that you can make the stock NSX (regardless of the year) brakes fade at the track. Even with air ducts and air deflectors etc, etc. It depends on the driver as well as the track in particular.

As NSXTC said: "Well…..you knew this answer was coming------You ain't driving fast enough, buddy!!!"

Been there and done that many times, some tracks in particular are "brutal" on the brakes, a good example is Laguna Seca. It's a matter of how much you are willing to push your car.

My front rotors on my 97 will get hairline cracks in a single track day at Laguna, and will start fading after 8 laps when I'm on the car by myself and a lot sooner like 5 to 6 laps when I carry a passenger. I drive at 8/10th at the track so I do push my car hard .

BTW: The added sense of confidence against fade also affects your laptimes as well, since you will be able to brake in a consistent way without having to worry if the brakes will bite or not.

There are those who will put a BBK on their cars for the looks and there will be others who will put them on for their fade resistance, I know to which group I belong to , hehe.

Ken

 

[Hrant]

Ken [aka 2slow2speed] is right on the money. It's truly a matter of how much you are willing to push your car.

And yes even with my cruising promenade driving skills ha ha ..., my 98 OEM brakes with Dali air deflectors and Carbotech Panther Plus, shielded SS lines, and with Motul 600 (which really helps) become mushy at Thunderhill especially when driving clockwise [turn 15 is brutal when you are hauling 130 mph and need to take a sharp left turn at about 50 mph with OEM tires], and I also concur that Laguna Seca after 6 hot laps will start toasting your brakes especially at turn 11 and 2, and at times before the cork screw. And as an instructor I tend to have students with me so I would be carrying anywhere from 120 lbs to 220 lbs additional weight! Such concerns cause me to drive more conservatively and thus braking at least 12 feet before others with big brakes thus affecting laptimes as Ken aptly noted ....... Been there enough that I am now shopping for a better brake deal, if nothing for that peace of mind ......

 

[JJCNSX]

hi guys,

i noticed that some of you are front nor cal, as a matter of fact, it seems like ken is from sunnyvale.

i'd accepted a job offer in sj, and will be moving back to sunnyvale on dec. 1, i would love to join you boys for track days.. i've never been to track with/in a nsx, would love to see how that feel!

-jjc.
red nsx 6spds
blk supra 6spds

 

[chriswtx]

what happened to posting some prices for this setup?

 

[Craig]

You must have missed this from the discussion on the Vendors forum about these brakes.

"The first version of the kit uses a relocation bracket to move the OEM caliper in the rear to accomodate a 13" x .810" directionally vaned two piece rotor. It also comes with longer steel braided brake lines to allow for easy pad changes without stressing the hose. In addition to all the hardware needed to full convert the front over, it includes steel braided lines for the front and rear as well as brake pads front and rear. $2850 for all 4 wheels!!!

The second version incorporates a 4 piston caliper in addition to a seperate emergency brake caliper designed to work with the same 13" rotor. This version includes all the hardware to convert both front and rear systems completely over. Steel braided lines and pads are also included front and rear. $3850 for all four calipers and rotors.

Both versions have specific piston diameter sizes on the calipers to insure OEM pedal height and feel without the need of a proportioning valve or residual valves. Most importantly, we have been able to do this without ruining the bias and balance of the car.

All of our rotors are available with any face pattern you would like, slotted only, cross drilled and slotted, or just blanks. They are all CAD plated silver to resist corrosion as well as cryogenically frozen to extend their life as well as create a smoother surface for the pad to bond too. Smoother surface = larger contact patch

If you guys have any questions or concerns feel free to email me at [email protected] or call me at the shop.

Thanks
Sherwin"