97+ brake conversion

[JJCNSX]

I have a 93 nsx, i am considering doing 97+ brake conversion. For now, i am probably not going aftermarket brake setup (eg stoptech,brembo), since i am planning to keep my 16/17 OEM rims.

What do i need to do to do this conversion? How much $ am i looking at..

Is 97+ brake better than 96 or prior? is it worht all the trouble?

Also, do i have to do BOTH front / rear .. ? If i just replace the front, would it have any negative affect? since NSX is a MR

thanks

-jjc.

 

[NSXTC]

http://www.nsxhelp.com/diy2/Real-World Brake Upgrades.htm

 

[mandrewz]

I'm doing it, too

I believe all you need are the '97 and later calipers and rotors (assuming one had already gotten the 16/17 wheels). I purchased new calipers front and rear, but I'm sure there are some used ones around somewhere (new are rather expensive-$1500++). I have not decided on which rotors to use. Other than stock, or Dali (choose from 1), the rotor selection is very limited. I'm hoping someone will offer a slotted (I wish to avoid drilled) and plated (I'm tired of looking at the rust) rotor. I am wondering how many of you out there would also be interested in a rotor upgrade to your '97 and later cars? If enough interest is indicated, maybe more variety in rotors will be made available. I would not upgrade just the front, that would likely throw off the f/r bias. New pads would of course be used. I will use braided lines as well. Anyone know of a high quality slotted and plated rotor to fit the '97 and later cars with stock brakes?

 

[D'Ecosse]

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18588

Same discussion going on in this thread - see my comments there.

 

[JJCNSX]

so, although OEM 97+ bracket and caliper are two pieces, they are ONE part number.. meaning, we can NOT get the bracket by itself? damn..

if we get enough ppl who are interested, how hard is it to "make" this bracket?

i understand that rotor will be more expensive for 11.7", but i really like bigger rotors though..

-jjc

 

[NSXTC]

I dont think it would be hard at all! Just need to get hooked up with a CNC place. Once the measurements are taken and the first piece is made, duplicates could be spat out pretty regularly. I just don't think there's too much demand out there. It might make more sense to make a bracket to relocate the stock caliper on a 13" rotor for people who want to fill up the insides of a 17" front wheel.

if we get enough ppl who are interested, how hard is it to "make" this bracket?

i understand that rotor will be more expensive for 11.7", but i really like bigger rotors though..

-jjc

 

[JJCNSX]

I believe if we can make "brackets" to convert to 97+ brake, this will be more cost effective over all.

cheaper initial cost: just a bracket + 11.7 oem rotors vs complete aftermarket brake setup$$..

We dont have to worry about dicking with balance of the f/r brake, eg. some aftermarket brake needs proportion valve (which I believe it is a patch for poor design) i am not sure what 13" rotor w/ oem calipers will do to balance of f/r brake...

We keep our OEM 16/17 rims/tires, for overall superior handling. and save $$ for aftermarket rims.. 97 oem brake is probably the biggest that would fit under 16 rim.

97+ oem rotors are not that expensive, (compares to brembo other aftermaket rotor).. we do get to use OEM pads too

it sounds like 97 brake is good enough for track events already.. i dont see why we need to fork out that much money for brembo etc..

last but not least, most people prefer STOCK NSX, if you alter it by cutting heatshield etc etc, or even adding aftermarket brakesetup. Not to mention all the $$ you spent. Some potential buyer might shy away from your NSX.. Stock NSX will keep up the value better.

I belive this is a cost-effective solution which make sense...

anyone interested? i am very interested to purchase this bracket and maybe mass produce it.

 

[RyRy210]

Re: I'm doing it, too

I believe all you need are the '97 and later calipers and rotors (assuming one had already gotten the 16/17 wheels).

You are correct. I have done this conversion and its a complete bolt on. All you need to get is the caliper and the rotor.

JJCNSX, I don't get the point of you just using a bracket and increasing the size of the rotors via ur '91-'96 Caliper.

The '97 Calipers are not the same from the previous model years. The piston sizes are different as well. I would just get the 97+ caliper and the 97+ rotor and be done with it. If you want slightly better braking power than what you have you would want to change both calipers and rotors to '97+ Specs. Not many people can tell that the 97+ brakes are larger so if ur sole purpose is looks and better braking, an aftermarket kit might better suit ur needs.

FYI - Comptech makes one that fits under the OEM 16/17 wheels but they are extremely expensive IMHO.

 

[The REAL nsxtasy]

Re: Re: I'm doing it, too

FYI - Comptech makes one that fits under the OEM 16/17 wheels but they are extremely expensive IMHO.

Dali Racing currently sells the Tarox front kit with a 310 mm rotor that fits under the OEM 16" wheels. It costs $1800 for the 6-piston kit and $2500 for the 10-piston kit.

 

[JJCNSX]

see the pix attached, i "believe" the caliper itself is the same (or almost the same). just the bracket gives that additional clearance for larger 97+ oem rotor.

Honda mentioned that 97+ caliper has larger pistons. But i cant really tell from the pix. Even if there are minor increase in piston size, i dont know if that will make that much difference. But larger rotor will disperse heat better, and move 91-96 calipers out .35" will give you more stopping power (with same clamping power)

see this reference:

http://www.nsxhelp.com/diy2/Real-World Brake Upgrades.htm

the '97-up front caliper (left) has a longer bracket than the 91-96 front caliper on the right

 

[The REAL nsxtasy]

Honda mentioned that 97+ caliper has larger pistons. But i cant really tell from the pix.

The larger of the two pistons is 40 mm for both models. The smaller one went from 34 mm for '91-96 to 36 mm for '97+.

Going back to the original questions:

Is 97+ brake better than 96 or prior? is it worht all the trouble?

Yes. No.

Why are you even considering it, anyway? Describe the problems you are having with your current brakes; maybe there is a better solution. And if you're not having any problems, well...

 

[JJCNSX]

thank you all for speedy replies

I have not taken my NSX to the track yet. So far i dont have any problem.

Since I am in the process of replacing my front brake/rotors, i figure if i can get this "bracket" made, I might as well convert it to 97+ brake. It should upgrade my brake very cost effectively.

if we can make this bracket. this will be the cheapest way to upgrade our pre-97 brake..

 

[The REAL nsxtasy]

Re: Re: I'm doing it, too

JJCNSX, I don't get the point of you just using a bracket and increasing the size of the rotors via ur '91-'96 Caliper.

I don't, either.

If you replace the brackets AND the calipers, you will get a slight improvement. If you replace the brackets but NOT the calipers, you won't get ANY significant improvement.

Furthermore, you are trying to "fix" a problem that doesn't exist. You are wasting your money.

But go ahead...

 

[JJCNSX]

Sorry for not being clear..

please reference the attached picture,

the one in red cirle is the bracket of 97+ & the bracket in green is 91-97..

i am trying to make a bracket just like one that is circle in red

i am not trying to FIX .. i am hoping to UPGRADE.. i am hoping to make a bracket to fit my caliper and purchase oem 11.7" rotor to make 97 oem brake..

 

[NSXTC]

Re: Re: Re: I'm doing it, too

If you replace the brackets AND the calipers, you will get a slight improvement. If you replace the brackets but NOT the calipers, you won't get ANY significant improvement.

Furthermore, you are trying to "fix" a problem that doesn't exist. You are wasting your money.

But go ahead...

I agree with nsxtacy- if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!! Unless you are having a problem with the stock 91-96 brakes, it probably is not worthwhile upgrading. That being said, the problem most everyone has at the track with the 91-96 brakes is fluid boiling from too much heat being generated. When you upgrade from the 11" to the 11.7" (1997-up) rotors, you get enough of an increase in surface area to dissipate more heat, such that it will be highly unlikely that you'll ever get any more fade on the track. Im sure if you went endurance racing, this setup would not be adequate, but my experience is that the 1997 upgrade (in conjunction with Dali deflectors and removal of the splash guards) has eliminated all brake issues with the open lapping / time trial days I like to do (usually 30 min track sessions). In fact, when I got the ’97 upgrade, I decided that if they weren’t good enough, Id upgrade from them to Brembos. Bottom line is that happily, I never had the need to do so.

As for the larger front piston diameters, I had both my original ’94 and the new ’97 calipers out at the same time (see the above pictures) and I never thought to measure the piston diameters, but I remember them looking exactly the same except for the brackets. I swapped the entire caliper assemblys out because the ’97 brakes (actually off of a 2001 car) were brand new, and my old piston seals were about to give up the ghost because of all the overheating and abuse they had been through. Anyway, if the ’97-up pistons are actually bigger (and im not arguing that they are not), I believe this may be due to the master cylinder in the ’97 and up cars, which I understand is a bigger unit than the 91-96 cars?

So, bottom line, I believe IMHO based on my experience, that making a set of brackets to relocate the stock 91-96 calipers on 97-up stock rotors would be a sensible, and cost-effective upgrade for track use, but, again, only if you actually need it, i.e. – you are having repeated brake fade with the stock setup.

It is about as big of a brake system as you can fit inside the factory 16" front wheel:

 

[The REAL nsxtasy]

Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm doing it, too

the problem most everyone has at the track with the 91-96 brakes is fluid boiling from too much heat being generated.

In 60+ track events in my NSX, I have never boiled the brake fluid. I have generated plenty of heat. I have cracked the rotors, usually after a reasonably acceptable number of events. I have melted the piston boots in the calipers on occasion, too. But I have never boiled the brake fluid.

 

[JJCNSX]

Well, i am a new NSX owner, i am sure that stock 91-96 brake is good enough, even for track..

i have a Supra tt, the oem 12.6" w/ 4 piston brake caliper are great for street, but for track it does fade (stock supra is 3550+ lbs). i dont want to have the same problem with my NSX..

Since i need to replace my brake pad/rotor soon, i want to duplicate a 97 oem "bracket" for my 91-96 oem caliper to fit a 11.7" rotors. I believe this is an inexpensive brake upgrade for ppl who might be interested.

97 oem braket will move caliper about .35" out, with the same clamping power from 91-96 oem caliper, it SHOULD provide better stopping power.. 11.7" rotor would also disperse heat better

I really think this is interesting ... hopefully a cheap brake upgrade

-jjc.

 

[NSXTC]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm doing it, too

Well…..you knew this answer was coming------You ain't driving fast enough, buddy!!!

Brake fade on the early stock setup was a regular problem for the faster guys I used to track with in Texas, especially during the summer, and especially if they were running forced induction (more speed to bleed off in the braking zones) . This is of course with fresh new racing brake fluid, etc, etc.

No doubt you are generating heat – melting the boots is bad news- debris gets in there and soon will kill your calipers. A larger rotor will help this problem by dissipating more heat and keeping the calipers cooler. Read this story for actual on-track temp comparisons.

Like I said, for most people, the early stock setup is fine, so if it aint broke, don’t fix it!

In 60+ track events in my NSX, I have never boiled the brake fluid. I have generated plenty of heat. I have cracked the rotors, usually after a reasonably acceptable number of events. I have melted the piston boots in the calipers on occasion, too. But I have never boiled the brake fluid.

 

[NSXTC]

97 oem braket will move caliper about .35" out, with the same clamping power from 91-96 oem caliper, it SHOULD provide better stopping power.. 11.7" rotor would also disperse heat better

It will disperse heat better, but other then the initial placebo effect, it will not give you any more "stopping power". That's a big myth. Unless you are having fade problems on the track, you are wasting your $$ considering this mod (unless of course you just like the looks of it, or want to do the mod for the fun of it.)

Brake fade is a different issue, but as to pure "stopping power", the fact of the matter is that contrary to popular belief, how fast you stop is determined not by your brakes, but instead by your tires, at least that's the case for the NSX (as well as any other decent sports car out there). For one minute forget about threshold braking and think about braking with all four wheels locked (and with no directional control). ABS aside, most any car can lock-up all four wheels. Once this happens you have shown that your brakes have a higher grabbing power than your tires. Your wheels have stopped moving and that is all your brakes can do. Now your stopping distance is a function of the friction between your tire and the road surface. Only lightening your car or switching to a higher adhesion track or a stickier tire compound will shorten your stopping distance.

So again we repeat our mantra: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[JJCNSX]

Hey NSXTC,

i understand most of the braking is from tires. and i understand that once all wheels are locked up, then, that means your calipers have more stopping power than your tires. )

when i stated "more stopping power" i mean the initial BITE at higher speed.. Same caliper @ .35" further out should provide a little more stopping torqe on the rotor..

ok, i guess my Supra mod happy tendency is carrying over to my NSX.. Supra is such mod friendly car, if you know what you are doing, with very little $$ you can turn it into a better performing track car..

i really want to try this oem upgrade since i need to forkout money for pad/rotors anyways!

can someone be kind enough to let me buy/borrow/rent their 97 caliper bracket?

-jjc.

 

[The REAL nsxtasy]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm doing it, too

Well…..you knew this answer was coming------You ain't driving fast enough, buddy!!!

Yeah, sure - I was driving plenty fast at NSXPO 2000 and 2001, faster than most of the supercharged NSXs there, and fast enough to be generating plenty of heat in the brakes. But the effects of the heat were concentrated on the rotors and elsewhere, not in the fluid. Or maybe I just use higher temperature fluid (Motul RBF 600) than everybody else. Then again, maybe those boiling fluid are abusing the brakes by riding them too long, instead of using them hard over a short distance.

Most of the NSXers I've been tracking the NSX with haven't been boiling their fluid, either. I'm not saying it never happens, but it's nowhere near as common as you describe, and not very common at the track events I've been to - which includes seeing over 400 NSX drivers driving on the track at six NSXPOs... which is six more than you.

Like I said, for most people, the early stock setup is fine, so if it aint broke, don’t fix it!

And on that, we certainly agree.

 

[docofmind]

WOW, you guys are awsome. There needs to be more boards like this. I truly commend the members of this board for chiming in and giving their personal opinions which most importantly are educated ones.

I was going to wait to drop the bomb on a new product i have been working on with one of your members, but it seems this might not be a bad place to let the cat out of the bag.

I recently developed a 6 piston caliper mated to a 13" rotor brake set up for the NSX. We are currently doing the final mock up for the rear. The rear kit is basically what you are talking about doing for the front, a different bracket for the OEM caliper with a larger 2 piece rear rotor.

Before you ask,"NO", a 13" rotor will not fit under the 16" wheel, BUT, the 12.2" version that I developed for my S2000 will I will post pics when I get to the office tomorrow. I will also give you the detailed specs as well.

 

[NSXTC]

This must be Sherwin! Welcome to the board! Very impressed w/ the new brake system. There's actually pics online already, and quite a bit of interest stirred up over your new setup:

WOW, you guys are awsome. There needs to be more boards like this. I truly commend the members of this board for chiming in and giving their personal opinions which most importantly are educated ones.

I was going to wait to drop the bomb on a new product i have been working on with one of your members, but it seems this might not be a bad place to let the cat out of the bag.

I recently developed a 6 piston caliper mated to a 13" rotor brake set up for the NSX. We are currently doing the final mock up for the rear. The rear kit is basically what you are talking about doing for the front, a different bracket for the OEM caliper with a larger 2 piece rear rotor.

Before you ask,"NO", a 13" rotor will not fit under the 16" wheel, BUT, the 12.2" version that I developed for my S2000 will I will post pics when I get to the office tomorrow. I will also give you the detailed specs as well.

 

[Zishan]

wow, looks nice. Now for the big question.... how much??
Z

 

[docofmind]

This must be Sherwin! Welcome to the board! Very impressed w/ the new brake system. There's actually pics online already, and quite a bit of interest stirred up over your new setup:

Hey Craig, thanx for the pic. You know, I still dont have any of your car
Glad to see the word is spreading. There is nothing like support from a great group of people.

Here is a pic of my S2000 with the 16" version that uses a 12.2" rotor

6 Piston Caliper
13" x 1.1" Heavy duty directionally vaned rotor. (Drill/Slot + CAD plating + Cryo freeze)
Goodridge DOT lines
Anodized rotor hats & brackets
Ceramic or track pads
Aircraft quality hardware.

The price for the complete front set up is $1700. The front and rear set up is $2650. More to come, stay tuned