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Any Martial Artists in here?

Great thread and very informative. Since there seems to be a LOT of expertise I was hoping you guys could offer some advice.

I was just discussing this with my wife this past week, my daughter is 6 1/2 yrs old, very fit and is enrolled in gymnastics. I'd like to enroll with her, into a martial arts program. I'm just about 38 yrs old, strength train 3 days a week and run 3 days a week. My primary focus is for my daughter to LEARN self defense and I'd be doing it with her so I can be actively involved.

Can you offer me any advice on how to pick a school? I really don't know a lot about this but I was hoping she could learn more pressure point fighting (?) that would allow her to properly defend herself against a larger opponent vs a technique that requires more strength. Is this a good age to get her started? I was hoping that by the time she was a teenager she'd be in a better position to defend herself if put in a compromising situation.

I really appreciate any feedback

Thanks!
Danny
 
Great thread and very informative. Since there seems to be a LOT of expertise I was hoping you guys could offer some advice.

I was just discussing this with my wife this past week, my daughter is 6 1/2 yrs old, very fit and is enrolled in gymnastics. I'd like to enroll with her, into a martial arts program. I'm just about 38 yrs old, strength train 3 days a week and run 3 days a week. My primary focus is for my daughter to LEARN self defense and I'd be doing it with her so I can be actively involved.

Can you offer me any advice on how to pick a school? I really don't know a lot about this but I was hoping she could learn more pressure point fighting (?) that would allow her to properly defend herself against a larger opponent vs a technique that requires more strength. Is this a good age to get her started? I was hoping that by the time she was a teenager she'd be in a better position to defend herself if put in a compromising situation.

I really appreciate any feedback

Thanks!
Danny

Danny she is pretty young at this point. Keep her enrolled in gymnastics and allow her to build her balance and maintain her flexibility. You can enroll her in martial arts now but I think she is too young. If you do it, know that it is for fun not for self defense at this point. Its critical she build a good foundation, I would enroll her when she is closer to 10 years old.

In general the best "defensive" art for a smaller opponent against a larger one is Brazilian Jiuitsu. It is the foundation of MMA, and an art that will allow her to defend herself against a larger oponnent. I recently was interviewed by a Boston newspaper regarding what I recommended for women and I will tell you the same thing I said in the paper. Women are always at a significant disadvantage to a man. While it is important to learn how to strike, a woman that is very good at striking arts (punching, kicking, standup stuff) will still lose to a man that is much larger and stronger. The woman can hit the man maybe 5-10 times, but one hard punch from a man will cause a lot of damage to a woman. I actually feel that a lot of martial arts foster a false sense of security in a woman, and she may make the mistake of trying to duke it out with a guy and that is not a good situation.

Most of the time when women are attacked, they are grabbed, pulled, taken away or taken to the ground in a rape situation. In all of this Brazillian Jiujitsu excells, because it allows the woman to use the ground and leverage her weight and whole body strength against the weakest parts of the man's body, his joints. If a man is laying on top of a woman with the woman on her back, it is actually "guard" in BJJ, a very effective fighting position.

A woman with a good BJJ background can protect herself very well against a much larger man. Also it will allow her to get used to the intimate contact that happens often in fighting, and she won't freak out when someone that outweighs her by 100+ pounds is on top of her.

She should also learn some strand up, and for that Muaythai and Judo are very good. I recommend Boxing more to men because their arm strength and joint strength far surpasses that of women. A man can break his knuckles very fast punching without gloves, nevermind a woman. Muaythai allows a lot of use of elbows and knees that are much stronger, and it works well in a clinch which is the most likely situation a woman may find herself in an attack. It provides a nice transition to BJJ on the ground. Judo will teach her a lot of balance, and allow her to throw a man to the ground pretty quickly and get away. She needs to concentrate on Judo throws, not so much their ground game especially the way it is taught at most schools in the U.S. On the ground concentrate on BJJ.

So keep her in gymnastics for now. Once she is older get her into a BJJ school immediately. At the same time have her learn Muaythai (these are offered together at most schools now that teach MMA fighters). A couple of years of Judo will also be helpful to her.

As for pressure points, its mostly fiction. There is some reliance on it in Japanese and small-circle jiujitsu, this is the kind of useless stuff that the Gracies got rid of when they perfected their style (what is now known as Brazilian) jiujitsu. I will maybe get some heat for this but... do not enroll her in Karate, Kung Fu, Kenpo, Tae Kwon Do, etc.

Also a can of pepper spray always discretely carried with her can do wonders. It avoids contact alltogether. There are other things she can learn to avoid bad situations. Of course she is young now but I will give you a few examples:

They say that if a woman is taken away, she has a 90% chance of being raped and or killed. (I am sorry about the grim example). If someone points a gun at her and tells her to get into a car or go with him, she needs to start screaming and run away as fast as possible. Lets say 50% chance that the guy will shoot. Then there is a 50% chance he may hit her. Now we are at 25% odds. There is a 50% chance that shot is fatal, now we are down to 12.5%. So 12.5% odd of dying if you scream and run, versus 90% chance if you agree and go with the assailant. Teach her to never ever go anywhere with someone under force. If someone asks for her wallet/purse, she needs to throw it one way, and run the other way. Giving the thief a choice between a purse and money or a screaming lunatic going the other way. Most people give the thief the purse then stand there while he thinks about his next command. If she is ever uncomforatble in a situation, teach her to trust her instincts, always. If in an elevator with someone she is uncomfortable with, press the button to every floor and get off as soon as the door opens. If she is uncomfortable in a cab, have her say something like "Cab 314, huh? that was my locker # in school" or something like that so the cabbie knows that she knows him and the cab number. Teach her to not go jogging with an ipod in her ears unless its at the gym. I could go on and on, these are some basic rules.

For yourself, find a good BJJ school and start there. Then you can teach her in a few years yourself rather than some MMA wannabe punk rolling with her on the ground trying to cop a cheap feel. Also when you are in a good BJJ school, you will learn a lot from the guys that are there about fighting and self defense in general. They are a rougher crowd, but that is where you need to be to learn. The reason most girls/kids wind up in useless classes is because its a nicer environment. Its much nicer to be in a white uniform with other kids screaming like they are Bruce Lee or a Teenage mutant ninja turtle than it is to be having a Marine just back from Iraq sweating on top of you in a smelly BJJ classroom.

I hope this is helpful.
 
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Great thread and very informative. Since there seems to be a LOT of expertise I was hoping you guys could offer some advice.

I was just discussing this with my wife this past week, my daughter is 6 1/2 yrs old, very fit and is enrolled in gymnastics. I'd like to enroll with her, into a martial arts program. I'm just about 38 yrs old, strength train 3 days a week and run 3 days a week. My primary focus is for my daughter to LEARN self defense and I'd be doing it with her so I can be actively involved.

Can you offer me any advice on how to pick a school? I really don't know a lot about this but I was hoping she could learn more pressure point fighting (?) that would allow her to properly defend herself against a larger opponent vs a technique that requires more strength. Is this a good age to get her started? I was hoping that by the time she was a teenager she'd be in a better position to defend herself if put in a compromising situation.

I really appreciate any feedback

Thanks!
Danny


Danny,

I think you have already started on the right track. Gymnastics is a great start for any martial artist. Honestly, I would probably have her focus on that for a couple of years before enrolling her into a martial art. Then get her started when she is 8 or so. The good part is, that after two years of gymnastics she will adapt and overcome alot of technique in martial arts.

But, for younger children, I would enroll then in either Kempo or Tae Kwon Do. There are a couple of reasons for this. One is just the mental aspect of training and discipline. Do not let you daughter take from a white instructor (fyi...I am white). Find a reputable, old school asian instructor who will teach both physical and mental discipline. The second reason I would recomment TKD or even Kempo is that they are a good base to then branch off into a different martial art. They both focus on basic blocking, striking, and kicking. Couple that in with a good gymnastics background, and you hvae a pretty strong base.

Or, if you can find an authentic Muay Thai school, thne forget TKD or Kempo, and go straight for it. Then later on down the road when you daughters body starts to develop physically, say around 13-14, then put her into a more advanced art. A child's body need to develop, in my opinion, before entering into Judo, Jiu Jitsu, or MMA. I would probably enroll her into Jiu-Jitsu around 12 years old, if she is physically ahead of the curve.

But, that is just my advice. Lets see what others have to say here.

Nathan
 
Dave

PERFECT, I really appreciate the feedback, THANK YOU. Helpful was an understatement! You hit the nail on the head. First, I'll make sure to tell my wife the purse example, totally agree, not worth dying for the contents of her purse.

I wasn't really sure at what age would be best to get her started but your suggestion is great. She's been doing gymnastics since she was 4 and she really loves it, so I'll keep her involved there until she gets a little older. My concern was exactly your point below that a single punch from a man will do a LOT more damage then multiple punches from her, so I didn't want her to get involved with a discipline that would "build a false sense of security". So it sounds like BJJ is the way to go. Being I didn't know much before reading your post I thought it was pressure points but now I understand its more about leverage and joints.

So last question, any tips on how to select a school, how do I weed out the crap vs a good school? Any good questions to ask? I like your idea about me getting involved now so I can teach her as she gets older.

Thank you again, I would never have thought to ask on PRIME.

Danny
 
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So last question, any tips on how to select a school, how do I weed out the crap vs a good school? Any good questions to ask? I like your idea about me getting involved now so I can teach her as she gets older.

Check the instructor's credentials. BJJ is not completely diluted yet. You see, most martial arts were very effective in their day. But eventually, martial arts turn into sport. In sport, no one wants to risk injury. So the stuff that actually works, is taken out. The students that didn't learn the best parts, are today's instructors. They have no idea what Jigoro Kano or the original monks in Shaolin knew. Over time you get a very watered down version of an effective martial art. Based on learning Kata, how to get a "point", etc without much real contact. Breaking boards and bricks is just show for the most part. BJJ is relatively new, but already I see moves like heel-hooks being taken out alltogether.

Right now a legit brown or black belt in BJJ probably knows his stuff. They haven't started handing out belts in BJJ like its going out of style yet as they do in Karate schools. "Pay $100 for your BS test and here is your next belt"... yipee...

I will say however there are good instructors and bad ones. Being a good BJJ practitioner does not make you a good teacher. It just shows you know the art. I would not have anyone less than a purple belt teach me. Although they have the basics, they don't know the details. Go to a school that was originaly a BJJ school, not one that decided Karate has slowed down and so we will pickup BJJ by hiring a blue belt from another school. Here is a good one in your area:

http://www.bjjcenter.com/

I highly recommend a mix of private lessons alongside regular group classes. It will speed your learning tenfold.
 
Danny,

But, for younger children, I would enroll then in either Kempo or Tae Kwon Do. There are a couple of reasons for this. One is just the mental aspect of training and discipline.

This can turn into a mistake. Although I know where Nathan is coming from, you have to be careful because she can get caught up in her "art" very easily, and before you know it she spends all her time for years in a TKD school when she could have been learning something more appropriate. When you practice an art, you have a tendency to build an allegiance to it and your instructor no matter what it is.
 
They would probably kill the merciless martial artist. Don't underestimate a well trained MMA fighter. Although they are not allowed to do certain things in the ring, it doesn't mean that can't quickly adapt. When you know how to control your oponnents on the ground or you have precise striking capability, you can certainly hit someone in the groin, poke eyes, chop to the throat or headbutt if you need to. Adapting from being an MMA champ to being a good street fighter with no rules is a quick transition because you don't need years of special training to learn how to poke an eye out or bite someone if need be. But you do need years of training on ground control and precise striking which they already have.

This is an excuse used by people that get beaten by more technical MMA fighters use when their "discipline" fails them. They say "oh mine is so deadly I can't use it or it would kill you". :rolleyes:

I remember once training with one of the Gracie family and some newb was getting arm-barred on the ground and asked "what if I bite your leg now?" and the instructor pulled his leg off and gave him a slow kick to the head and face, hit him in the mouth that would have smashed his teeth, then twisted his elbow joint to where the kid immediately started to tap and then he calmly asked "do you have any more questions?" and everyone in class was laughing. He did not hurt the kid, but definitely answered his question.

I was taking earlier about how the mental aspect of martial arts is lost. Any sort of defensiveness in the mind is ego and it is totally pervasive. The ego feels diminished when it senses attack, and that can come in a subtle way like someone saying "your discipline or your teacher is not as good". Any sort of comparison is the work of ego. It is a state of mind that a true student is taught to surpass eventually. A true martial artist will never have a need to defend any sort of mental position. You will never be able to carry on an argument with a true master.

I appreciate and respect the Philosophy of Martial Arts and self respect which it brings out through self defense. From the different styles I take the benefit of each art and leave what I find to be a waste of energy.

As a martial artist my goal is to finish the fight fastest possible way avoid "all" if not most injuries.

As an experienced martial artist I realize all fights differ in the street and in the ring as do individual tactics and styles. As such I would not allow the fight to escalate to the ground nor waste all the energy trying submission moves. Not that I would not learn them to give the antidote. If a fighter attemps to take me down then I will strick with all limbs to deter such an attack.

Martial arts is an expression of you are and ultimatly your expressing yourself through your career, life style and way of life.

I would never prostitute myself by fighting for prize or money. Knowing that I can win is enough satisfaction and motivator.
 
but, then again, a lot of it has to do with how motivated and outgoing and anxious you are to learn

+1!! This statement sums up the entire debate on what discipline is more effective. For example, take a person who studies MMA 1 day every other week for 1 hour (or whenever it’s convenient for him to go) and put him in a ring with someone who studies Tae-Kwon-Do 7 days a week for 4 hours a day and tell me who you’re going to place your odds on?

I’m not saying MMA is bad; in fact, I’m a big fan of it. However, I think it all boils down to just how hard you train in your specific discipline.

:smile:
 
+1!! This statement sums up the entire debate on what discipline is more effective. For example, take a person who studies MMA 1 day every other week for 1 hour (or whenever it’s convenient for him to go) and put him in a ring with someone who studies Tae-Kwon-Do 7 days a week for 4 hours a day and tell me who you’re going to place your odds on?

I’m not saying MMA is bad; in fact, I’m a big fan of it. However, I think it all boils down to just how hard you train in your specific discipline.

:smile:

Of course there is validity to what you are saying, but I will tell you that I choked out a black belt in TKD with a whole 11 months of BJJ under my belt. He had 14 years. If you are studying 1 day every other week for an hour, you aren't doing MMA. I don't know what you are doing at that point, but it's not MMA.

I think the debates on what disciplines are most effective have pretty much been put to rest by now.
 
I appreciate and respect the Philosophy of Martial Arts and self respect which it brings out through self defense. From the different styles I take the benefit of each art and leave what I find to be a waste of energy.

As a martial artist my goal is to finish the fight fastest possible way avoid "all" if not most injuries.

As an experienced martial artist I realize all fights differ in the street and in the ring as do individual tactics and styles. As such I would not allow the fight to escalate to the ground nor waste all the energy trying submission moves. Not that I would not learn them to give the antidote. If a fighter attemps to take me down then I will strick with all limbs to deter such an attack.

Martial arts is an expression of you are and ultimatly your expressing yourself through your career, life style and way of life.

I would never prostitute myself by fighting for prize or money. Knowing that I can win is enough satisfaction and motivator.

You may not have much of a choice in letting the fight "escalate" to the ground. Most fights end up on the ground at some point. If you want to use less energy, what is better than a submission? It ends the fight. You can't fight when you are sleeping from a choke. I also don't think most fighters are "prostituting" themselves, most of the fighters I know are very good guys deep down with a rough background that treated them poorly. They are guys that were the scrawny kid in school that was always beat up. They then learn a skill and wanting to test their skill, they develop an affinity for fighting. If there are ones that are obnoxious and in-your-face, it is because they are trying to cover their internal insecurity. In time as their skill improves and their confidence grows, they lose that insecurity and they become very good teachers. Fighting happens to be the road that they travel to get there, and they are much different than the drunk guy in the stands that is there to see blood for his $25 ticket. Why lay judgement on them?
 
I appreciate and respect the Philosophy of Martial Arts and self respect which it brings out through self defense. From the different styles I take the benefit of each art and leave what I find to be a waste of energy.

As a martial artist my goal is to finish the fight fastest possible way avoid "all" if not most injuries.

As an experienced martial artist I realize all fights differ in the street and in the ring as do individual tactics and styles. As such I would not allow the fight to escalate to the ground nor waste all the energy trying submission moves. Not that I would not learn them to give the antidote. If a fighter attemps to take me down then I will strick with all limbs to deter such an attack.

Martial arts is an expression of you are and ultimatly your expressing yourself through your career, life style and way of life.

I would never prostitute myself by fighting for prize or money. Knowing that I can win is enough satisfaction and motivator.

as mentioned before, the majority of fights end up on the ground. if you're not strong on the ground, you're not a strong fighter.
and even worse, what if the guy you end up in a fight with is a good fighter? and what if he likes to fight on the ground?
if you are expecting to avoid situations like that based on what you think you'll do in a given scenario, then you need to start brushing up on some of your weaker skills. you can never predict what will happen. what if you straight up lose your balance? (not hard to do, esp if you've taken a few to the face.) you're on the ground; then what?
 
I totally agree that gymnastics is a great way for her to continue to develop body awareness, strength, flexibility, discipline, etc. for an MA later on. If you're looking for her to have a skill-set suitable to defend herself on the schoolyard it would be one set. To defend herself against an adult it's an entirely different affair. The latter would be a pretty extensive and regimented. Certainly not one I would not subject my daughter do unless of a very unique situation (read real life and death concerns).

My next point is about BJJ being the best self defense tool. First off I train in BJJ, Muy Thai, and Kung Foo San Soo. The debate of the 'ultimate' fighting style is obviously very old and in the modern era the Gracie family has made a very real argument for BJJ being 'the one'. However, there are several arts, Kung Foo San Soo included, that in their most basic form focus on striking the most sensitive targets. Eyes, groin, throat, ears, etc. A single powerful and accurate strike to those targets should be sufficient to deter most threats.

Please don't interpret my point the wrong way. Everyones posts have been informative and thoughtful. And I definitely don't want to have a flame-war about whose dojo, instructor, or art is superior. I merely want to offer my opinion to someone that has opened the discussion about something that is very important to them.

Peace and Love
 
as mentioned before, the majority of fights end up on the ground. if you're not strong on the ground, you're not a strong fighter.
and even worse, what if the guy you end up in a fight with is a good fighter? and what if he likes to fight on the ground?
if you are expecting to avoid situations like that based on what you think you'll do in a given scenario, then you need to start brushing up on some of your weaker skills. you can never predict what will happen. what if you straight up lose your balance? (not hard to do, esp if you've taken a few to the face.) you're on the ground; then what?

Possibilities are endless, majority of fights are on the ground are im MMA not against an advanced Martial Artist of none JJSU style. Fights on the ground are a result of "mistimed"punch or kick and or lack of parrying or training. If someone tries to take an advanced Martial artist to the ground via tackle he will get kicked in the chin or elbowed, ankels, knees, groin, possibly losing an eye or damage to jaw bone leaving himself open to such a counter can leave life long injury or cripple you. Using the ground for offense and defense is ok as long as it doesn't hurt/kill you.

You have two arms and two feet. Feet for movement, standing, jumping, and long distance defense. Hands for punching, grappling, parrying countering. When you stop using an arm or a leg you just limited yourself to defense and offense. The goal of a fighter is to shed away headlessness and finish the fight not for a show of fancy elaborated movements.

Our bodies are designed in a relaxed, flexible state, like a gymnist, not to fight in a pretzel style eliminating the use of the longest weapon the feet.

IMO
 
Agreed... and another point I would make is that training in BJJ is much safer than training most stand-up arts. It is very easy on your body. Jiujitsu itself means "soft art", and it really is that way. In comparison, Muaythai and especially Judo carry much higher risk of injury. However if you master Judo, you will become like a cat in learning how to take a fall and how to balance yourself so you don't fall. Aikido is also fantastic with this but has a very long learning curve. 10 years minumum to become effective.

BJJ's other strong point, is the submission itself. In sport people tap, but in a fight you are talking about either a) being choked out and put to sleep or b) having a broken arm, shoulder, knee or ankle. It absolutely *100 %* ends the fight. With BJJ you can quickly put someone to sleep and walk away. What is better? You are safe, and you have done no real damage to your oponent even. 20 seconds later he is back to normal. It beats standing up and going toe to toe with someone any day.
 
TURBO, I don't care...I am NOT taking gymnastics man. A wrestling singlet looks bad enough, you want me to put on a leotard? As for all the comments about fights ending up on the ground...it's true that most do end up there (i've been lucky most times in being able to sprawl n' brawl, even though my wrestling is sub-par), but IMO the most important thing to master is positioning. Groundfighting is chess. You may not have the strength/skill/experience to put your opponent where you want him, but you do have control over your own positioning and can take advantage of his first mistake. This doesn't apply to defending yourself in a bar though, if you end up on the ground there you only have 2 concerns - watching your back for his friends, and mounting him so you can unload. Conditioning won't factor in either, never had a fight last long enough to actually get winded, and i'm far from a cardio machine. I hate to say it but in self defense it's usually the guy that strikes first that wins, if you think it'll escalate you need to regulate.
 
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