Car doesn't start - looking for a second opinion

[NSaneXr]

I’m looking for either a confirmation of my diagnosis to my car problem or some further direction on what to look at before I start buying parts. I tried to perform all the tests (from Prime) that I could based on my skill and available tools. The car is a 97, 6spd with 95K kms.


The short version of the story is, my car wouldn’t start; had the battery tested and they said it was fine; tested a bunch of stuff; in the end tried to jump start it and it worked. I suspect the battery is bad even though the parts guy said it was good. Does that seem right?


The long version - A few weeks ago the car wouldn’t start and I attributed the problem to a slightly drained battery as a result of me working on the getting a new iPhone working with my USA Spec. I put the battery on the tender for a bit and it fired up. The car ran great for a couple weeks and then it wouldn’t start one day. Again I put it on the tender for a minute or two and it fired right up and worked for another week and then it wouldn’t start. I figured the battery must be on the way out so I took it to a place to test it (Napa/Pepboys like place). They used a hand held unit and the test indicated the battery was good. I cleaned up the terminals and cables and put it back in and the car fired right up. I drove it around for about 30 minutes and put it in the garage on Sunday. Today the car wouldn’t start again. I turn the key, I hear the fuel pump, and some other clicks but that’s it. No movement from the starter from what I can tell.


I have run through the gambit of things to check:
- lights come on; head lights work etc.
- clutch pedal stopper is there
- OEM security system seems ok
- battery voltage = 12.5V
- voltage to starter = 12.xV
- ignition switch - seems fine wiggling the key causes no issues
- fuel pump is priming
- starter sliding pinion sounds like it is working


- main relay hasn’t been replaced during my ownership and I don’t have a record of it being replaced but from what I understand this wouldn’t necessarily cause the symptoms I have.
- I didn’t check the starter motor
- battery is a diehard 6000 gold of undetermined age


On a whim I thought I would try to jump start it and it fired right up. So I’m back to thinking that the battery is bad and doesn’t have enough cranking amps for the starter even though the battery test said it was fine.


Does that sound right or should I check anything else?

Thanks.

 

[B2FiNiTY]

Sounds like battery is bad.

 

[jwmelvin]

Your symptoms do sound like a bad battery. And considering that it is pretty affordable to pop in a new battery compared to just about anything else, it wouldn't be a bad start. At least that's my relatively novice view.

 

[BTL3.0]

take your battery to an auto part store and have it load test. its free.

 

[NSaneXr]

Thanks for the replies. I did get the battery tested and the test said it was good. I am going to try to jump start the car from the battery location (I used the engine location the first time) to make sure there isn't a problem between it and the starter. If that works then I'll replace the battery.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Check BOTH of the battery terminals for looseness on the battery post. I see this regularly on NSX's and all Honda's. The terminals stretch if overtightened(which happens all the time). Open the hood and try to rotate the terminals on the battery post. ANY movement and you have found your issue. Make sure the battery terminal is seated at the bottom of the post, the battery post is tapered, so many times I see the terminal is just not all the way down, and them it will not tighten.

Remember when you test from the battery, your jumper will contact the terminal, not the battery post, so even it that works, terminals can still be loose, and be your issue.

HTH,
LarryB

 

[ftuhy]

When you say it doesn't start, is it
a) it cranks but doesn't run
or
b) it doesn't crank.

If b), here's a simple "no tools" test: turn on the headlights, then turn the key to start the car. If the headlights go very dim, its the battery or battery connections. If the headlights stay bright, then its the starter not activating.

If you want to be more scientific and you have a meter you can simply test the 12V at the test connection in the engine compartment, measuring from there to the ground on the block. If it stays at (approx) 12V and the starter doesn't crank, its the starter. (At the start of cranking, the voltage can drop to about 10V on a good battery due to the high current flow) Measure in the engine compartment during cranking, because as Larry B noted, the battery can be fine but the cable terminals can be stretched,etc.

 

[NSaneXr]

[MENTION=4886]Larry[/MENTION] B - Thanks for the idea. I checked the battery terminals. There is no movement on either of them.
[MENTION=15242]ftuhy[/MENTION] - it doesn't crank. The dash lights come on, the headlights work fine, I can hear the fuel pump prime, I can hear the starter pinion click into place and return but that's it. Nothing from the starter motor. Since the battery test came back ok, I figured it was the starter motor, but when it fired up with a jump start I started to second guess that theory. I'm thinking it is the battery but I thought I should double check the wiring before I replace the battery. I'll check using your suggestion, thanks.

 

[ftuhy]

As long as you have a helper to turn the ignition switch to start, using a voltmeter, hold the probes right on the center of the posts of the battery. If the voltage drops below about 10V when the key is turned to start (especially if you can hear the starter pinion click in and out), its the battery.

If its the battery, it sounds to me like you have a cell that goes to high resistance. Only a high load test will find that. The starter surely does that. But if the Napa/Pep Boys place simply used a voltmeter, their test is nearly meaningless.

Hopefully you will sort this out quickly and get back to enjoying the good weather!

 

[chudson1549]

I would still check the starter. If you hear it engage but it doesn't turn, the bushings could be bad. you will get a random start/no start scenario. Get it tested to rule it out.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Based on all I read, it does really sound like the battery is NG......

 

[robbiedawg]

I would still check the starter. If you hear it engage but it doesn't turn, the bushings could be bad. you will get a random start/no start scenario. Get it tested to rule it out.

i had that,what i describe as a click/no start, and did have to get a new starter,which fixed the problem

 

[dquarasr2]

Do you own another car? If not, borrow one from a neighbor's car (assuming you are on good terms with your neighbors:biggrin. It doesn't have to fit perfectly 'cuz you don't really need to drive around, just start it. It also doesn't have to have the correct cranking amps, although it would be good if it were close. Swap batteries temporarily and see if it fixes your issue.

 

[NSaneXr]

Just a quick update from last night. The car started each and every time I tried so I wasn't able to test anything under a failed state. I measured the voltage at the engine compartment per Frank's suggestion and got 12.5V. When I cranked the engine the voltage dropped to 10V momentarily and then up to 14.2V with the engine running. I tested this several times and the results were about the same. Would it be safe to say that if the battery was bad it would have failed at some point during the testing?

This does seem to support the bad starter theory as the failure appears to be random.

 

[JD Cross]

Just a quick update from last night. The car started each and every time I tried so I wasn't able to test anything under a failed state. I measured the voltage at the engine compartment per Frank's suggestion and got 12.5V. When I cranked the engine the voltage dropped to 10V momentarily and then up to 14.2V with the engine running. I tested this several times and the results were about the same. Would it be safe to say that if the battery was bad it would have failed at some point during the testing?
This does seem to support the bad starter theory as the failure appears to be random.

Reading the thread, the consensus, (and particularly from LarryB) is that your battery is weak.
A bad battery can lead you on a merry chase testing and checking a myriad of other parts.
As you don't know the age of your battery I don't know why you are still playing around with it.
Get a new one, eliminate the battery as a source of potential problems and let us know if you still have problems.

 

[Old Guy]

If you are getting 10 volts in the engine compartment while the starter motor is cranking, I am not inclined to believe that the battery is the problem. The battery may not be great; but, its not the problem. If you had a faulty cell, you would have poor starting all the time, not fine one time and nothing the next. You have also eliminated the stretched / loose clamps on the battery terminals as a problem, which is one of the first things I would have suggested (the other was a bad ignition switch).

I support your observation that the problem may be related to the starter motor. However, I am going to suggest that perhaps the problem is related to the wire that connects to the starter solenoid. If, when you attempt a start, you get a click from the solenoid; but, the starter does not engage, then you are due for a new / rebuilt starter. However, if there is no click from the solenoid then perhaps the solenoid connection is loose, or one of the connectors in the circuit to the solenoid are loose, or the wiring has become frayed. A bad connection could explain your hit and miss starting symptom. Unfortunately, this involves getting in there and tugging on stuff and tracing the wiring. Finally, you said that the ignition switch passes a 'wiggle' test. I suggest pulling the contact portion of the switch and cleaning it to confirm that it is not the source of your problem.

 

[ftuhy]

^ +1 on the battery checking out OK. If the wiring check suggested by Old Guy is OK & you run into the problem again with the solenoid clicking and no cranking, try smacking the starter with something semi-soft such as a rubber hammer or 2 x 4 block. If it starts after that, its the solenoid contact or brushes and its time for a starter rebuild. This is an old trick that can shake the brushes or contact just enough to make them work again.

And of course if you do this all with the headlights on and they don't go dim as you attempt the crank, its a verification that the battery is still in reasonable shape.

 

[NSaneXr]

Thank you for the replies and suggestions. I checked the solenoid wire and confirmed that it is seated well and is getting 12V when cranking. When the car wasn't starting I did hear the solenoid click every time I tried to crank the engine. At this point I think I will look into getting the starter rebuilt.

Thanks again.

 

[mrbozo1]

Do not get the starter rebuilt.....buy a new one online or at parts local parts store...they should have them, depending where you are. This is common on hondas. 9 times out of 10 it is the starter. You can find remanufactured ones for 85 bucks. Dont waste your time and order one online...put it in .... and enjoy your car knowing that this was the problem....

 

[ftuhy]

Out of curiosity I looked at prices from RockAuto ( http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/ ). Interestingly, a Bosch remanufactured unit, which includes the solenoid, is $105 (plus $55 core deposit); yet a new Airtex solenoid alone is $205.

 

[R3DLINE]

This has happened to me long long ago. Everything was good, even replaced the battery. Can only be jump start or push start. Replace the starter relay located behind the glove department if I remember correctly. After that, never had a problem.