Check Engine Light P1607 and P1410

[chmit]

I have a 2000 NSX-T with 30k miles. During cold mornings when I start the car, CEL would come up. I pulled the codes P1607 and P1410 from my OBDII scanner but searching the forum postings here found nothing. Elsewhere on the web on other acura and honda forums, P1607 and P1410 seems to suggest "P1607 Malfunction In PCM Internal Circuit" and "P1410 EGR Valve Position Sensor Circuit Malfunction" respectively but I am not certain whether they are applicable to the NSX. When the car heats up to proper operating temperature, I would clear the codes, and then start the car again without the CEL coming up again. However, next morning when it's cold again, the same CEL codes come up. Does anyone have any idea what's going on? Thanks.

Tim

 

[f16nsx]

I have the same problem. About 2 month ago on a cold morning when I start the car the CEL come on. I unplug the battery to clear the code. Since then I have not drive it much so I am not sure CEL will come back on again.

Sam

 

[chmit]

Did you happen to get the code before you reset it? If it is not the same P1607, you might have a different problem than me.

I have the same problem. About 2 month ago on a cold morning when I start the car the CEL come on. I unplug the battery to clear the code. Since then I have not drive it much so I am not sure CEL will come back on again.

Sam

 

[Larry Bastanza]

http://www.nsxprime.com/wiki/Trouble_Codes

NSX ODBII codes Not the same as above.......

 

[Old Guy]

The on-line NSX service manual indicates that P1607 is 'Engine Control Module Internal Circuit Failure A'. The manual does not list a P1410 error code at all for the NSX. The error codes related to the EGR valve are P0401, P1491 and P1498. I believe the codes that start P1xxx are Honda specific codes in which case a generic code reader might not interpret them correctly.

P1607 sounds ominous; however, ECM problems can be created by supply voltage problems (usually low volatage). Obvious places to look are bad battery, bad battery connections and problems with the main relay. It might be possible that you have low voltage on initial start-up because of a bad connection but then once running, the alternator/voltage regulator is maintaining an adequate system voltage for the ECM. I recall something about the ECM having to trap an error 3 times before the ECM triggers the MIL. After you clear the codes, you might get two re starts without triggering the MIL. On the third re start, you would trigger the MIL - if the problem is caused by low voltage during start up. I don't know for sure that low voltage is your problem; however, you want to rule it out as a possible cause (primarily because the other sources of the problem are much more expensive). Also, the fact that you have not identified any other operating issues with the engine suggests that the ECM proper may be OK and that the P1607 code is a symptom resulting from some other problem.

It would be worthwhile to check out the operation of your EGR valve. In particular the valve lift sensing circuit. If you have a problem with the valve lift potentiometer or the wiring from the sensor to the ECM, you could be buggering up the EGR lift signal back to the ECM and you could be depressing the voltages within ECM if there was an internal short within the valve lift sensor or a short to ground within the valve lift sensor. These shorts could also be in the wiring between the ECM and the EGR sensor. If you can drive the car for an extended period of time without throwing a code related to EGR operation, then I am going to guesss that the problem is probably not EGR related; however, it is worth eliminating as a possibility. Unfortunately, I could not find the EGR lift sensor test procedure in the on-line manual and my paper manual is in the trunk of my NSX which is wrapped up in a secure storage facility for the winter. Others may be able to give you advice on the EGR test procedure.

As I noted before, I don't know for sure that low voltage on start up is the cause of your problem; however, it is a possible cause and something that you want to eliminate as a possibility first because everything else starts to cost $$$$. Good luck with it!

 

[chmit]

Great, thanks. I will try to pull the NSX's MIL code per the instructions here.

http://www.nsxprime.com/wiki/Trouble_Codes

NSX ODBII codes Not the same as above.......

- - - Updated - - -


Ok, I was suspecting bad battery as well so I actually went ahead and replaced it with a brand new one since the old one was already 8 years old. However, I am still getting the same codes, unfortunately. I think I would need to do more research on how to troubleshoot EGR as u suggested. I will try to get the acura MIL code so it would be more definitive than the OBDII and let you know. Thank you for such an extensive analysis by the way.

The on-line NSX service manual indicates that P1607 is 'Engine Control Module Internal Circuit Failure A'. The manual does not list a P1410 error code at all for the NSX. The error codes related to the EGR valve are P0401, P1491 and P1498. I believe the codes that start P1xxx are Honda specific codes in which case a generic code reader might not interpret them correctly.

P1607 sounds ominous; however, ECM problems can be created by supply voltage problems (usually low volatage). Obvious places to look are bad battery, bad battery connections and problems with the main relay. It might be possible that you have low voltage on initial start-up because of a bad connection but then once running, the alternator/voltage regulator is maintaining an adequate system voltage for the ECM. I recall something about the ECM having to trap an error 3 times before the ECM triggers the MIL. After you clear the codes, you might get two re starts without triggering the MIL. On the third re start, you would trigger the MIL - if the problem is caused by low voltage during start up. I don't know for sure that low voltage is your problem; however, you want to rule it out as a possible cause (primarily because the other sources of the problem are much more expensive). Also, the fact that you have not identified any other operating issues with the engine suggests that the ECM proper may be OK and that the P1607 code is a symptom resulting from some other problem.

It would be worthwhile to check out the operation of your EGR valve. In particular the valve lift sensing circuit. If you have a problem with the valve lift potentiometer or the wiring from the sensor to the ECM, you could be buggering up the EGR lift signal back to the ECM and you could be depressing the voltages within ECM if there was an internal short within the valve lift sensor or a short to ground within the valve lift sensor. These shorts could also be in the wiring between the ECM and the EGR sensor. If you can drive the car for an extended period of time without throwing a code related to EGR operation, then I am going to guesss that the problem is probably not EGR related; however, it is worth eliminating as a possibility. Unfortunately, I could not find the EGR lift sensor test procedure in the on-line manual and my paper manual is in the trunk of my NSX which is wrapped up in a secure storage facility for the winter. Others may be able to give you advice on the EGR test procedure.

As I noted before, I don't know for sure that low voltage on start up is the cause of your problem; however, it is a possible cause and something that you want to eliminate as a possibility first because everything else starts to cost $$$$. Good luck with it!

 

[Old Guy]

Glad to oblige. I also have a 2000 (with about twice your mileage) so I have a peripheral interest in your outcome. So far, I have dodged any problems with the car other than the typical NSX ageing things like dirty aspirator fans and such. However, I like to troll the do-it-yourself forum so that I have an inventory of possile solutions in the event that something bad happens in the future!

With respect to your battery replacement, I also replaced my battery last summer and noticed that the clamps could not be tightened down on the battery posts. Even with the nut and bolt on the clamp tightened to the point where the gap in the clamp was completely closed, I could twistl both + and - clamps off of the battery posts by hand. I had to purchase some battery post shims to fit over the battery posts to get the clamps tight. It appears that there has been some galvanic action between the battery post and the clamp which has resulted in the inside of the clamp being eaten away with the result that the clamp has become a loose fit (I plan to replace the clamps after I get the car out of storage this spring). That said, I never had any problems arising from the loose clamps. If your clamps are tight or if your starter motor spins the engine over quickly then this is probably not the source of your problem.

A final word on the main relay. I have no direct experience with problems with the relay; however, on this forum I have seen all kinds of problems attributed to the main relay. From what I have read, the relay suffers from internal solder joint failures which can result in low voltages on critical components such as the ECM. The relay is not in the starter motor circuit so you could still be getting low voltages on the ECM even if the starter motor is turning over quickly. If you are handy with a soldering iron, some people have said that these joints can be repaired. Most people seem to just replace. In this forum, most of the cars that suffer from main relay problems seem to be in the earlier years. I don't know whether this reflects an ageing issue or some design / manufacturing flaw in the earlier years. Anyway, something to keep in mind if you don't find the cause of the problem elsewhere.

 

[TyraNSX]

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/74157-DTC-codes?highlight=P1607
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...eader-and-got-P1607-and-P0155?highlight=P1607

 

[Old Guy]

Just a caution about interpreting the P1xxx codes which are all manufacture specific. A P1607 code from an Acura is not the same as a P1607 code from a Toyota. It is also possible that P1607 from different Acura models might not mean the same thing if they use different ECMs. Since there is an on-line version of the NSX shop manual available on Prime Wiki, go to the 'horses mouth' to get an accurate description of the NSX trouble codes rather than using generic descriptions.

I mentioned your interesting problem to a friend of mine who does much more tweaking with Japanese vehicles than I do. He offered up two ideas. First he said that he has 'heard' of problems with Acura and Honda ECMs where they will generate the P1607 code when cold but not when warm (sounds familiar?). He has heard that this is caused by bad solder joints within the ECM. When cold, the joints contract and fail but once warm, the joint is OK. Second, he said that he has seen cases where people have swapped out a Honda ECM for some reason and to avoid the cost of reprogramming the ECM with their immobilizer code, they have completely removed the immobilizer board from the ECM (apparently it is a little daughter board that is edge soldered to the main board). He says that when the immobilizer board is removed the ECM will generate a P1607 code but continue to work just fine otherwise. He said that somebody was making a dummy immobilizer daughter board for Hondas that you could solder back in place which would fool the ECM and prevent it from generating the P1607 code and lighting up the MIL. He doesn't know who was doing this, whether it is still available or whether it would fit the NSX ECM. He then put his consultant hat on and made the disclaimer that his comments are generic Honda/Acura comments and may not apply to the NSX!

If it turns out that you can't find any other sources of the problem and you want to find out if you have bad solder joints or an erratic immobilizer, there is a vendor (Brian K) on NSX Prime who specializes in repairing the electronic bits on the NSX. I don't know whether he does ECMs; but, it might be worth checking out.

 

[chmit]

I need to revive this thread since my problem came back now the weather is cold and by cold, I mean 40 - 60 degrees outside. I did replace my main relay but the problem persists, which means it's not the relay. I previously replaced the battery and battery is still good (measures about 12.05V). Now, it seems like my next step is to swap out the ECM with a known good one to test. However, service manual 11-39 says that the new ECM needs to be reprogrammed to rewrite the immobilizer code. Does anyone know how to do this? If not, my last resort is to take it into Acura dealership. Thanks.

tim

Just a caution about interpreting the P1xxx codes which are all manufacture specific. A P1607 code from an Acura is not the same as a P1607 code from a Toyota. It is also possible that P1607 from different Acura models might not mean the same thing if they use different ECMs. Since there is an on-line version of the NSX shop manual available on Prime Wiki, go to the 'horses mouth' to get an accurate description of the NSX trouble codes rather than using generic descriptions.

I mentioned your interesting problem to a friend of mine who does much more tweaking with Japanese vehicles than I do. He offered up two ideas. First he said that he has 'heard' of problems with Acura and Honda ECMs where they will generate the P1607 code when cold but not when warm (sounds familiar?). He has heard that this is caused by bad solder joints within the ECM. When cold, the joints contract and fail but once warm, the joint is OK. Second, he said that he has seen cases where people have swapped out a Honda ECM for some reason and to avoid the cost of reprogramming the ECM with their immobilizer code, they have completely removed the immobilizer board from the ECM (apparently it is a little daughter board that is edge soldered to the main board). He says that when the immobilizer board is removed the ECM will generate a P1607 code but continue to work just fine otherwise. He said that somebody was making a dummy immobilizer daughter board for Hondas that you could solder back in place which would fool the ECM and prevent it from generating the P1607 code and lighting up the MIL. He doesn't know who was doing this, whether it is still available or whether it would fit the NSX ECM. He then put his consultant hat on and made the disclaimer that his comments are generic Honda/Acura comments and may not apply to the NSX!

If it turns out that you can't find any other sources of the problem and you want to find out if you have bad solder joints or an erratic immobilizer, there is a vendor (Brian K) on NSX Prime who specializes in repairing the electronic bits on the NSX. I don't know whether he does ECMs; but, it might be worth checking out.

 

[JD Cross]

I need to revive this thread since my problem came back. I previously replaced the battery and battery is still good (measures about 12.05V).
tim

A fully charged battery should show 12.4-12.6 volts on your multimeter and 12.05 is a bit low.
Have you checked the battery voltage when the engine is running?
I believe it should show a minimum of 13.4 volts plus.
Old Guy knows electrics and he makes sense to rule out the battery/alternator as trouble sources first.
Were you able to compare your error codes to the shop manual to clarify your 1410 error code?

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Make sure you check the battery terminals for tightness. I have had MANY, that were previously over tightened and stretched. I see this on about 25% of Nsx's I see.

Regards,
LarryB

 

[Honcho]

Make sure you check the battery terminals for tightness. I have had MANY, that were previously over tightened and stretched. I see this on about 25% of Nsx's I see.

Regards,
LarryB

+1 This is a common issue on the negative cable. See Kaz's photo below for clarification.

http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/entry.php?888-Battery-GND-cable

 

[chmit]

I am fairly sure it's not the battery or the battery negative cable being twisted or torqued too tight. The reason the battery is around 12V is that the car was sitting in my garage for 2 weeks. When I fire up the car, the voltage is 14.65v which means alternator is working fine. I'm sure if I drive the car around, the battery will charge up to 12.6v. Just to rule the battery out, I swapped it out with my truck battery, which read 12.6v. I cleared the check engine light code, and then fired up the car and got the same P1607 and then mins later, the P1410. What is frustrating to me is that P1607 in the service manual is very vague and the steps to troubleshoot such ECM problem amounts to just swapping in a known good ECM, which I don't have another handy, although I'm tempted to just go buy one online for about $800 to just get a resolution to this year long problem. However, I don't know how to reprogram the darn thing to sync with the immobilizer, which means I might have to bring it into Acura dealership. Now, P1410 is not documented anywhere in my 97 service manual. Only thing I found online was http://engine-codes.com/p1410_acura.html, which indicates that it might be a faulty air pump. Page 11-4 of the 1997 service manual shows a diagram of an airpump and mentions 11-87 as place to find troubleshooting steps. However, I cannot find page 11-87 anywhere. Could this be in the supplement manual? Any help would be appreciated. Since I have spent significant amount of time on this, I want to get to the end of this although, I'm tempted to just bring it into acura dealership when I get too frustrated. Thanks again.

tim

+1 This is a common issue on the negative cable. See Kaz's photo below for clarification.

http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/entry.php?888-Battery-GND-cable

 

[Tech7042]

You're going to need to substitute a known good PCM. I can get you around the immobilizer system if you want to do it yourself.

 

[ftuhy]

My favorite low-tech quick-check on the battery/terminals/cables/grounding possibility: Turn on the headlights, then start the car. During cranking the headlights will dim, but should still remain reasonably bright.
Sure, getting the DMM out of my toolbox and wiring it up across the ECM and checking that the voltage is above approximately 9 VDC during cranking is more precise. But, if it fails the headlight test, you already know where to start looking.

 

[chmit]

Can you tell me how how to get around the immobilizer? The service manual says I need a honda PGM tester to reprogram but obviously, I don't have one. Is there some other cheaper device that I can get to accomplish the same thing? Thanks.

You're going to need to substitute a known good PCM. I can get you around the immobilizer system if you want to do it yourself.

- - - Updated - - -

Ok, I decided to charge my battery up to run this test using my battery charger. However, I noticed one thing. My battery loses 0.04V each day:

3/16/2014	9:00 PM	12.6V	65 degrees
3/17/2014	9:00 PM	12.57V	60 degrees
3/19/2014	10:00 AM	12.54V	60 degrees

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This could explain why my batter is at around 12V after 2 weeks of inactivity (0.04 x 14 days = .56v) and (12.6v - 0.56 = 12.04v). Do you guys know if this is normal to be losing 0.04v each day? This battery is just one year old. Thanks.

My favorite low-tech quick-check on the battery/terminals/cables/grounding possibility: Turn on the headlights, then start the car. During cranking the headlights will dim, but should still remain reasonably bright.
Sure, getting the DMM out of my toolbox and wiring it up across the ECM and checking that the voltage is above approximately 9 VDC during cranking is more precise. But, if it fails the headlight test, you already know where to start looking.

 

[JD Cross]

A car battery with 12.06 volts is approx. 50 % charged.
If you are losing half your charge in two weeks it would suggest your battery is weak or you have an ongoing voltage drain.
Have you checked for a parasitic loss in your system?
Perhaps you have an aftermarket alarm system or aftermarket sound system that are a constant drain?
In any event the data suggests you might stick to battery/parasitic drain issues before heading into the ECU.

 

[chmit]

To be clear, I'm losing 0.03 volts when the battery is not connected to the car the last 3 days. I connected it today and checked for parasitic draw and didn't find any since my multimeter only detected 46 milliAmp of draw. This is within the range of 50mAmp of acceptable amperage draw considering my car is entirely stock with no aftermarket alarm or stereo systems that can suck up more power.

A car battery with 12.06 volts is approx. 50 % charged.
If you are losing half your charge in two weeks it would suggest your battery is weak or you have an ongoing voltage drain.
Have you checked for a parasitic loss in your system?
Perhaps you have an aftermarket alarm system or aftermarket sound system that are a constant drain?
In any event the data suggests you might stick to battery/parasitic drain issues before heading into the ECU.

 

[JD Cross]

To be clear, I'm losing 0.03 volts when the battery is not connected to the car the last 3 days.

The 50 % charge loss I was referring to was based on your calculation of .56 volts lost over two weeks leaving 12.04 volts left.
Research showed 12.04-12.06 volts was equivalent to a 50 % charge.

 

[ftuhy]

A quick look at the specs for a typical group 35 battery (OEM size in my '96 NSX) shows the Amp-Hr capacity is typically 44 AHr, with some claims as high as 65. A 50 mA drain is a 1.2 AHr drain per day (.05A * 24 hrs) or 8.4 AHr per week. In 2 1/2 weeks that's 21 A Hr. So, for a typical battery, the NSX electronics drawing typically 50 mA with the car off will discharge 50% of the battery capacity.

That agrees quite well with what was observed.
(That's why if your car sits for more than a week or so, it should be on a float charger.)