Colorado Shooting

[steveny]

Wrong. You have a hypothetical scenario. Do you actually believe that this type of mass murder can't or won't happen. Wake up. What is reality is that I have the ability to protect myself if I'm ever in a place where this is happening. You obviously don't have the same ability. You can either be the sheep or the Shepard. It's obvious which one I am and which one you are.

EDIT: I apologize to the other people who have posted on this thread. The main focus should be on those who were killed, injured, and the family and friends of the aforementioned.

Identifying the threat is the major issue IMO. I was at a shopping mall before this shooting in Colorado happened. The mall was under construction and loud synchronized noises were coming from the hall. Everyone just went about their business like nothing was wrong, which it wasn't. But who's to say that a nut case wasn't up the hall with a gun?

The amount of chaos that breaks put when something like this happens must confuse all the senses and by the time someone gets a firm grip on their surrounding and what's going on its most likely too late even if they are equipped. This is where law enforcement really shines through and you have to think about how tough it must be for them to always be "ON".

 

[steveny]

As evidenced by the past day event, I am not ignorant to the fact that these do occur. However your belief that adding more shooters and guns into a chaotic scene is the optimal solution shows who is ignorant and who is not ignorant of how guns "solve problems." To which role you assign yourself is purely your opinion.

Well we've already tried it with most everyone unarmed and that's not working. How about just trying it a different way before we say it doesn't work?

 

[Tom239]

That's an example from twenty years ago, where a person shot a teenager who broke into their house - unless you're arguing against gun possession in general, I don't see how it applies.

Ringing the doorbell and walking away is not breaking into someone's house.

I think the more-telling aspect here is the fact that people are digging through decades of stories trying to find something which fits, and they're doing so without success.

As far as how it fits goes, my point was pretty simple. People in
general show bad judgment from time to time. People fly off
the handle even. An argument for more guns carried means
more guns in the hands of people who can make errors. You
have to weigh the benefits against the drawbacks.

As anyone who has expressed interest in a CCW permit will attest, they're not easily acquired, typically require extensive training, and occasionally even the approval of local law enforcement. They can be revoked for something as (relatively) innocuous as a misdemeanor. To cruise around in public with a concealed firearm is not a permission given lightly, even with our current law set. To then tell these people they must leave their weapon in their car's glove-box seems ridiculous, especially in light of tragic events.

It varies all over the place. It's trivial in Vermont.

 

[bee_are_bee]

I am not convinced that more people carrying weapons
in public gatherings is going to make things better overall.
Even well-meaning people exhibit bad judgment from time to time.

How many people would call for more guns if what
happened to Yoshihiro Hattori had happened to their child?

I'd still call for more licensed gun ownership because things such as this...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/26/year-old-chicago-man-kills-armed-home-invader/

It's no secret well-meaning people exhibit bad judgement. We are after all humans. Our propensity for making mistakes is not reason enough to say more licensed gun ownership = more gun violence or murder. Not that you specifically are saying this. We can find examples of accidents all over the place. That's not hard.

Look at the evidence.

Washington DC banned guns for 30 years. Murder rates rose significantly during the following 15 years. The ban was struck down in '06 and while murders were steadily declining it still remained higher than when the ban was implemented. Chicago, something similar happened. 28 year ban ending in 2010. For eight years starting in '82 the murder rate dropped along with the percentage of murders by gun. By 1991-92 murder rates rose significantly above before the ban along with gun homicide percentages. Despite bans being lifted the two cities still have stringent gun control laws. Homicides rates and gun related violence in both Chicago and DC remain some of the highest in the nation.

On the flip side there are towns like Kennesaw,Ga where there is a city ordinance that requires heads of household to keep and bear firearms along with ammunition. If I recall, there hasn't been a murder in Kennesaw in 30 years since the ordinance passed. Maine has lax gun laws but, as of 2009, had the third lowest rate of gun related violent crimes in the country.

There is a dearth of evidence that arming law abiding citizens leads to more gun violence while time and again strict gun laws do little to prevent gun violence from occurring. Seems in many of those instances there is a correlation with increases in gun violence once more stringent laws remove arms from law abiding citizens.

 

[bee_are_bee]

Ringing the doorbell and walking away is not breaking into someone's house.

He didn't "walk away." What happened to that kid is a damn shame but don't mischaracterize what happened :wink:

 

[Tom239]

He didn't "walk away." What happened to that kid is a damn shame but don't mischaracterize what happened :wink:

This is from the Wikipedia article I cited. Tell me if it is inaccurate, or if I mischaracterized it.

Hattori and Haymaker rang the front doorbell but, seemingly receiving no response, began to walk back to their car. Meanwhile, inside the house, their arrival had not gone unnoticed. Bonnie Peairs had peered out the side door and saw them. Mrs. Peairs, startled, retreated inside, locked the door, and said to her husband, "Rodney, get your gun." Hattori and Haymaker were walking to their car when the carport door was opened again, this time by Mr. Peairs. He was armed with a loaded and cocked .44 magnum revolver. He pointed it at Hattori, and yelled "Freeze." Simultaneously, Hattori, likely thinking he said "please," stepped back towards the house, saying "We're here for the party." Haymaker, seeing the weapon, shouted after Hattori, but Peairs fired his weapon at point blank range at Hattori, hitting him in the chest, and then ran back inside.

 

[bee_are_bee]

I'll reiterate, damn shame what happened to that kid. Shouldn't have happened. but....

"Simultaneously, Hattori, likely thinking he said "please," stepped back towards the house, saying "We're here for the party.""

is not "walking away."

 

[Tom239]

I'll reiterate, damn shame what happened to that kid. Shouldn't have happened. but....

"Simultaneously, Hattori, likely thinking he said "please," stepped back towards the house, saying "We're here for the party.""

is not "walking away."

Please understand I was correcting someone who said he'd broken into the house.
I didn't mean to suggest he got shot in the back. My apologies that I left something
out that you thought was important enough to speak up about.

Until the brilliant gun owner got involved, all that had happened was someone rang
the doorbell and walked away.

 

[scorp965]

This is from the Wikipedia article I cited. Tell me if it is inaccurate, or if I mischaracterized it.

The flaw with this example is that the gun / gun owner were home at the time, it's not related in any way to CCW discussion. It's also twenty years old; if this example is the first one which comes to mind, for the last two decades, where some creeper fired a gun at a dude who visited his home, I would say that's pretty good, statistically speaking.

How many random shootings have there been in the same time, at workplaces, at shopping malls, of course this recent event, etc.

Can you provide examples where a CCW permit holder has acted with recklessness, and put the public in danger? Treyvon Martin springs to mind, but I don't know the details, also I suppose we don't either, since an altercation took place.

 

[Fastrunner]

 

[Tom239]

Can you provide examples where a CCW permit holder has acted with recklessness, and put the public in danger? Treyvon Martin springs to mind, but I don't know the details, also I suppose we don't either, since an altercation took place.

There's a list of shootings of private citizens by CCW permit holders at
http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/ccwprivatecitizens.pdf
Only some of them count as the kind of recklessness you asked for examples of.

There are plenty of instances of arguments that escalated, some of
them I think clearly reckless (e.g., Vishna Beepot; argument in a bar
led to shootout with 10 people shot and two killed).

There are quite a few instances of people shooting spouses, lovers of
ex-girlfriends, and so on. Ronnie Cook got into a shootout with police
after shooting his wife; he had been a police officer and was a CCW
instructor in Texas.

How about stupid accidents, do they count as recklessness? E.g.,
Moises Zambrana (showing someone the gun; removed magazine but left a round chambered)
Latrecia Levine (gun fell out of waistband while owner was in an Internet cafe)

I am not saying that being able to list examples is anything close
to the final word on the topic. It is a complicated question.
But you asked if I could provide examples, so I did.

 

[DRIFTER]

 

[steveny]

Well isn't it obvious how well it's worked with illegal drugs?

 

[nsxotic911]

my wife doesn't like it that i always have a firearm on me, but if i had to protect her in a situation like this, and take a bullet myself, i would do so in a heartbeat. I'd rather be carried by six than judged by 12.

+1.

 

[nsxotic911]

There's a list of shootings of private citizens by CCW permit holders at
http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/ccwprivatecitizens.pdf
Only some of them count as the kind of recklessness you asked for examples of.

There are plenty of instances of arguments that escalated, some of
them I think clearly reckless (e.g., Vishna Beepot; argument in a bar
led to shootout with 10 people shot and two killed).

There are quite a few instances of people shooting spouses, lovers of
ex-girlfriends, and so on. Ronnie Cook got into a shootout with police
after shooting his wife; he had been a police officer and was a CCW
instructor in Texas.

How about stupid accidents, do they count as recklessness? E.g.,
Moises Zambrana (showing someone the gun; removed magazine but left a round chambered)
Latrecia Levine (gun fell out of waistband while owner was in an Internet cafe)

I am not saying that being able to list examples is anything close
to the final word on the topic. It is a complicated question.
But you asked if I could provide examples, so I did.

There are millions of ccw permit holders and the latest 'current' list is 2010? Thousands of more people are killed by knife possesors I'm sure. Plus, I read something about an abused wife killing her husband... not sure what the problem is there.

With that said, this story is a f*n nightmare. This guy was a f*n psycho who went in there to kill every person and would have had 90% success had the gun not jammed. I can't believe only '12' people died initially. This is worse than a horror movie..

 

[steveny]

I am not convinced that more people carrying weapons
in public gatherings is going to make things better overall.
Even well-meaning people exhibit bad judgment from time to time.

How many people would call for more guns if what
happened to Yoshihiro Hattori had happened to their child?

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2012/07/police_investigate_dads_fatal.html

 

[nsxotic911]

"Originally Posted by Tom239
I am not convinced that more people carrying weapons
in public gatherings is going to make things better overall.
Even well-meaning people exhibit bad judgment from time to time.

How many people would call for more guns if what
happened to Yoshihiro Hattori had happened to their child?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...000507.jpg/450px-Caroline-Migros-p1000507.jpg

Let me try...
Let me know if you need more data that a armed society is a polite society.

 

[Tom239]

"Originally Posted by Tom239
I am not convinced that more people carrying weapons
in public gatherings is going to make things better overall.
Even well-meaning people exhibit bad judgment from time to time.

How many people would call for more guns if what
happened to Yoshihiro Hattori had happened to their child?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...000507.jpg/450px-Caroline-Migros-p1000507.jpg

Let me try...
Let me know if you need more data that a armed society is a polite society.

Japan's really polite too and they aren't armed.

Tons of arms are floating around Iraq; did you see
in today's paper about 100 people killed in attacks
across the country?
"An armed society is a polite society"-- except when it isn't.

The degree of civility is hugely affected by the culture.

 

[nsxotic911]

Japan's really polite too and they aren't armed.

Tons of arms are floating around Iraq; did you see
in today's paper about 100 people killed in attacks
across the country?
"An armed society is a polite society"-- except when it isn't.

The degree of civility is hugely affected by the culture.

I think Switzerland makes a pretty good argument that a armed *society* is a safe society.

Japan is just an argument that a armed society may not be *necessary* - however, as you mentioned, the reasons for that is because it is ingrained in culture. We don't have that, and it's a lot easier to accept reality and protect yourself, than it is to try and change everyone else's perspective on life around you, hoping you get to convert all the criminals in the process.

Iraq gun laws are very strict - stricter than most states here, and discourages citizens to protect themselves. While I think 100 people being killed in a day is not good, I think 50 - 100 are killed in a weekend in Detroit and it doesn't make the front page of CNN - all killed by responsible armed citizens with legal purchased guns of course (not).

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/iraq
-In Iraq, the law requires that a record of the acquisition, possession and transfer of each privately held firearm be retained in an official register

-In Iraq, State agencies are required to maintain records of the storage and movement of all firearms and ammunition under their control

 

[Tom239]

I think Switzerland makes a pretty good argument that a armed *society* is a safe society.

I speak German; I have friends in Switzerland; I have been there.
I agree with you that it is an armed, civil society -- it demonstrates
it is possible -- although I note that Swiss laws on private citizens
carrying guns are stricter than Colorado's.

Japan is just an argument that a armed society may not be *necessary* - however, as you mentioned, the reasons for that is because it is ingrained in culture. We don't have that, and it's a lot easier to accept reality and protect yourself, than it is to try and change everyone else's perspective on life around you, hoping you get to convert all the criminals in the process.

I generally agree, although my personal preference has been to live where
crime is low. While living in cities I had my home and car burglarized, ran
away from muggers on several occasions, ... . I moved to a remote rural
area 15 years ago and none of that stuff has happened to me here. And --
this means a lot to me -- going to town to run errands does not feel like entering
a zone where the law of the jungle applies. I don't mind keeping a gun at home
but I don't care to live where I'd feel it was important to carry one. I can't
convert the criminals as you say but I could go where people are better behaved.

As you said, Swiss *society* is safe and polite. I think that reflects the
specifics of their culture and civil structure. The USA is different, and
although it saddens me to say this I have to call it like I see it. The nature
of urban American culture makes me doubt that more people carrying
guns to public gatherings here will improve things, which was the fairly
specific thing I got involved in this thread to say. And on this I could
be wrong; I am no expert. But it's my opinion.

 

[enkrypt3d]

What I'm wondering is why did the gunman tell the cops that his house was booby trapped? Did he suddenly have a moment of conscience?

 

[Vega$ NSX]

What I'm wondering is why did the gunman tell the cops that his house was booby trapped? Did he suddenly have a moment of conscience?

NOT saying I believe this or endorse this but here is a very interesting, albiet completely theoretical, explanation for that very question.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036536_james_holmes_shooting_false_flag.html

 

[Hugh]

I note that Swiss laws on private citizens
carrying guns are stricter than Colorado's.

Colorado allows CCW throughout the State. The previously quoted Aurora gun ban is erroneous. In 2003, the state legislature and the governor deemed that the power to address gun violence in Colorado through laws SHALL NOT be in the domain of the affected communities, rather it should rest only in the hands of the state. By this legislation (SB03-25), all local ordinances banning firearms have been declared unenforceable.

However, Cinemark has a "gun free" policy which really is a joke as anyone with a CCW living in Florida will tell you. It is not illegal to CCW into a private business with a no gun "policy". However, if the business finds out they can ask you to leave and lock the gun in your car before returning. At this point, if you refuse you can be charged with trespass. Since the whole point of CCW is "concealed" carry it is very unlikely anyone will know that you are carrying unless of course you have no clue how to carry concealed.

That being said, I am sure there were armed citizens in the theater that night. The shooter immediately created a scene of chaos with the smoke grenades and then the use of a semi-auto rifle most likely using Federal XM855 steel core ammunition. The bullets travel at close to 3,000 feet/sec and would easily pierce multiple rows of seats. Combine this extremely lethal bullet with the fact that he had a 100 round mag and was firing at the rate of no slower than one round per second and you start to get the idea. INSTANT PANIC AND CHAOS.

That being said, even if there were 20 armed people in that theater, I have a hard time seeing a scenario with anyone getting off defensive fire. CCW holders are NOT Law Enforcement Officers and I'm willing to venture a guess that they have any anti-terrorist training. Their basic human instinct of self preservation would have overridden any urge to be a hero.

 

[alum04org]

I think Switzerland makes a pretty good argument that a armed *society* is a safe society.


Iraq gun laws are very strict - stricter than most states here, and discourages citizens to protect themselves. While I think 100 people being killed in a day is not good, I think 50 - 100 are killed in a weekend in Detroit and it doesn't make the front page of CNN - all killed by responsible armed citizens with legal purchased guns of course (not).

Hey- hey, let's get it right with this here (bolded) statement. While Detroit may be firearm challenged, the Obama/Rahmbo Windy city stronghold is "blowing us away" so far this year.
Just for clarity.

 

[myguitar]

The shooter and one of the victims worked on my campus, and I sort of knew the victim, just from buying food at the place she worked at.

Crazy, crazy world.

But to the OP, who says "WTF Colorado, Columbine than this"... Well, as tragic as this event is, I don't think that it's nearly as bad as what goes on in Chicagoland or Detroit. When Chicago routinely reports dozens of murders every week, you gotta think that this is still really small in comparison and that Aurora is still a pretty safe place compared to 100s of other places in the US that are completely off charts with crime. This guy doesn't fit your usual suspect, and he could have driven to any place anywhere and done the same thing. This isn't so uncommon and will happen again and again and again and again. It's almost a normal part of life in the US today. My only hope is that no one I care about is ever in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I'm not for drastic gun control measures because it's too late for us as a society to protect from psychopaths like this "joker" dude who have already obtained their high powered rifles... and why a civilian should have a gun like this legally is beyond any common sense. Even with guns, and even if someone miraculously stopped this guy, he still shot first and still would have taken lives away before being stopped, if anyone could shoot him through smoke and crowds.

Keep safe my friends, this is a crappy, crappy world we live in.