Connecticut school shooting

[steveny]

I have to say this debate aside, the entire event has just made me ill. It is so hard to not think about it and everytime I do I see the face of one of those kids... and I feel sick. it's even harder for me because it was kids. It's really difficult.

Ditto

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Yes, the ones prescribed to you by medically trained and certified professionals can help save your life. Those drugs are not readily available to anyone, unlike guns. .

Yeah like the trained professionals that operate pain clinics in Florida? I don't really feel like waiting under a desk for a "trained professional" to come and save the day. I think that policy has been in place for quite sometime and its proven not to be effective.

 

[Ritesh]

bee_are_bee: The facts are clear, gun bans don't work. Seriously, look at countries where bans are in place. Look at cities and states with the most stringent gun laws. Unless we want our search and seizure laws to be turned on its head the bans will be impossible to police regarding criminals and those bent on destruction. I'm of the belief that not everyone should own a gun. But 2.97 gun murders per 80,000 guns indicates to me that an absurd majority of guns aren't used to murder people.

Sorry for delayed response. I read your previous arguement that We are much safer than Mexico and Africa. I'm sorry but we as a culture are Nothing like Mexico or Africa. I would say we are very similar to Canada. Canadians for example own more guns/100K people than Americans YET somehow they have a much much lower homicide rate. Any logical reason for that?

Cement trucks and Car bombs requires SOME thought, planning, support and training. Stealing guns from your parents house or neighbour's collection and using it doesn't!

 

[Jack Sparrow]

I fail to see how one has to do with the other unless you are just trying to add another dimension to this arguement or start a fight...

My statement was meant to show that those who generally support giving everyone guns are irrational.

1. Didn't know guns were readily available to anyone. Guess that is because they aren't.
2. We have a ban on illegal drugs because they are illegal. We have bans on illegal guns also. Illegal things are banned by definition.
3. Your statements continue to be nonsensical. Maybe that is on purpose...

The current gun laws are a joke. Guns are readily available to anyone who truly sets out to get them whether it is through legal or illegal channels. Doctors have years of training & education in order to practice medicine yet gun ownership does not require 1/10th of the prerequisites. Why do you continue to argue in favor of public gun ownership when the consequences of their use can be so harmful?

People without mental disorders of some type do not engage in mass killings. The weapon of choice is irrelevant. If they are intent on killing others they will find a way.

I graduated law school with someone who had bipolar disorder in the family. One brother was a major league pitcher coping well. Another brother was a well respected district Attorney for many years who suddenly stopped taking his meds. He got in a car and drove into a park running down and killing several people walking along a path. No guns were involved but many lives destroyed due to a mental illness.

Mental Health accessibility is another issue but to use that to protect the "tool" is absolutely ridiculous. Last time I checked, the car was not created to kill.

I was referring to mr sparrow's attempt to bring a religious debate in...

See above.

 

[NetViper]

Maybe schools need to require a full psych eval to graduate HS or Colleges need to give them to get in or both. Maybe this can help identify people that are high-risk to this type of behavior and they can get help before something like this happens.

 

[SFNSXguy]

Don't understand many of the posts in this thread -- one exception being Net Viper's post above ^
The simple truths are:
There are WAY too many guns in this country (the genie is out of the bottle and nothing can be done about it now).
Weapons designed for the military should NEVER be allowed in the hands of the general public.
Mental health in the US is constantly having its funding reduced. Bad choice to balance budgets.
My $0.02

 

[docjohn]

does anyone here know of specific examples where there is a gap/weakness in our current healthcare for emotionaly disabled people.....do the rules kinda force illequiped parents/guardians with this responsability?

 

[RSO 34]

Last time I checked, the car was not created to kill.
.

Neither was fertilizer but the results were the same in OKC.

It would help to be able to identify the potential wing nuts first but that will never happen with hipaa, the ACLU, etc.

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does anyone here know of specific examples where there is a gap/weakness in our current healthcare for emotionaly disabled people.....do the rules kinda force illequiped parents/guardians with this responsability?

I have seen the gaps in NY. Many parents are left without much recourse depending upon how or even if the kids get classified in school.

 

[docjohn]

I have seen the gaps in NY. Many parents are left without much recourse depending upon how or even if the kids get classified in school.

lets hope that our lawmakers look at these issues besides the obvious gun issues that are being debated here.

 

[Jack Sparrow]

Neither was fertilizer but the results were the same in OKC.

It would help to be able to identify the potential wing nuts first.

Agreed, but why not take a "tool" off the market when by design, all it is meant to do is kill?

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You know its time for a change when Republicans are finally suggesting it as well:

http://gawker.com/5969085/in-emotional-monologue-joe-scarborough-changes-long+held-gun-debate-stance-nothing-can-ever-be-the-same-again

 

[Ponyboy]

That's great. I hope your children know that this probably will never happen to them and that they are safe. It sounds like you live in a good school district. I wish the schools here would at least allow parents carry on school property, however that is not possible. I can't take a short cut home through the local university because of the laws restricting guns on campus. As a licensed permit holder, I'd be committing a felony even having a gun in the trunk unloaded on any school property; private or public.

They do. Or at least they tell me they do. One is five and the other ten so I'm not sure they grasp the enormity of the event but you can only try and hope it seeps through. It's a private school so they aren't constrained on what they can do to protect the kids. I'm a CCW holder as well and have had to minimize my use in order to stay within the law.

Its hilarious to think some do not want children to learn about Evolution in the classroom but arm their teachers and suddenly everyone is a Navy Seal. Goes to show just how bad things have become.

yes, things have become awful. Teachers taking precautions to prevent harm to the children families entrust them with should never be allowed. The rest of your creationism vs. evo strawman argument, I won't even address.

 

[steveny]

Don't understand many of the posts in this thread -- one exception being Net Viper's post above ^
The simple truths are:
There are WAY too many guns in this country (the genie is out of the bottle and nothing can be done about it now).
Weapons designed for the military should NEVER be allowed in the hands of the general public.
Mental health in the US is constantly having its funding reduced. Bad choice to balance budgets.
My $0.02

Weapons designed for the military are not available to the general public and they have never been, with the exception of civil war weapons. Weapons that look like military weapons are available to the general public. To put it in perspective the military gets a formula one car with a formula one engine. The general public gets a formula one car with a lawn mower engine. Although they appear the same ther'yre not even close to the same performance. There's been a lot of laws passed to make guns look less military, thumb hole stock comes to mind. All that did was open up a huge market for aftermarket modifiers to sell bolt on parts.

 

[Ponyboy]

lets hope that our lawmakers look at these issues besides the obvious gun issues that are being debated here.

I hope they do. It's myopic to discuss the how and not discuss and address the why.

 

[OneRedNSX]

My statement was meant to show that those who generally support giving everyone guns are irrational.

Your statement was somehow meant to draw a correlation between religious people and irrationality. That in and of it self is a blanket statement that you are not able to defend... Irrelevant at best and shows you are obviously extremely biased in what you are about to say...

The current gun laws are a joke. Guns are readily available to anyone who truly sets out to get them whether it is through legal or illegal channels.

Last time I heard, so were drugs... So, again... Irrelevant argument. You suggest no reasonable change, only to ban ban ban.

Why do you continue to argue in favor of public gun ownership when the consequences of their use can be so harmful?

I am NOT in favor of the kind of situation you talk about. We have laws to prevent unqualified people from operating motor vehicles, prevent unqualified people from practicing certain professions, etc.


What I AM in favor of is responsible gun ownership. Same as responsible motor vehicle ownership... Not everyone should be allowed to operate a motor vehicle. Not everyone should be allowed to own a firearm. No blanket "get rid of guns" statements. I AM in favor of coming up with solutions that are not "knee-jerk" and will actually have a benefit. Ever hear of Prohibition? Didn't work out as planned... There are lots of things around us that are harmful. We need a good mix of regulation and personal responsibility. Not a one-sided ban.

For example:
I would be perfectly fine if laws limited the magazine capacity of handguns to 10 rounds (regardless of caliber).
I would be perfectly fine if you were required to complete a class similar to the CWP class before you could even own a gun. You have to take drivers ed and pass a test for a car after-all.
I would be perfectly fine if laws banned all semi-auto long-guns. If you are using it for its intended purpose, I don't think you need semi-auto capabilities to kill a deer.
I would be perfectly fine if people with mental disorders or convicted of violent crime were unable to ever own a gun of any sort. Enforce high penalties for convicts that are found with a gun.

Not saying those are the (only) answers, just my quick opinions. I am NOT in favor of arming "the ignorant masses". Nor am I in favor of going down the road of having personal responsibility and common sense removed from life.

Mental Health accessibility is another issue...

Agreed. I don't understand the context of the rest of that statement however...

Agreed, but why not take a "tool" off the market when by design, all it is meant to do is kill?

That is your opinion. I see it as a tool for defense. Anyone can use a tool irresponsibly but nobody talks about outlawing hammers. The popular media, video games, movies, etc all show guns as offensive weapons which contribute to the problem of people categorizing guns as inherently evil and invoking "knee-jerk" reactions of BAN BAN BAN.

 

[steveny]

does anyone here know of specific examples where there is a gap/weakness in our current healthcare for emotionaly disabled people.....do the rules kinda force illequiped parents/guardians with this responsability?

I have first hand knowledge of the massive gaps. Growing up poor in the late 70s and 80s we took in a family friend who was nuts. It was nice to have him around because when he was out of the nut house and paying rent the electricity was on. He was a Vietnam vet lost to the system. It was more than evident when he went off his medications. He would not have physically harmed a fly but he was very unpredictable. One minute he thought he was the devil the next he was a fallen angel, the next Jesus and after that he'd dress up and act like famous people from history.. Hitler, king tut, Jesus, etc. i learned a lot about history from him. he was wicked smart and could recite endless facts about history and baseball like rainman. It was easy to tell when he went off his meds but no one, police, his case worker, social services, would help us until after he did something stupid... Like take my dog in his car, hit a curb, rip the wheel off the car and continue to drive it several miles until the oil pan was worn through and the motor blew. Or maybe he'd eat crap right out of a restroom toilet and declare he was now as tough as a Hell's Angel! He'd go into the nut house for a few months build up his military payments in the bank, then get out to do it all over again.

He ended up meeting a girl who loved his monthly check, quickly spending it within a few hours of receiving it. He lived with her and her kids for a few years. Finally one month he spent the check before she got her hands on it. This pissed her off. He then picked up her kids at school as he had done for a few years prior. The woman called the police and had him arrested for kidnapping. He's been in prison since then, about fifteen plus years.

BTW, mental illness also plagued everyone in his family. How he ever got accepted in the military is beyond me. And the position he held, after a battle he went in to pick up the body parts.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Weapons designed for the military are not available to the general public and they have never been, with the exception of civil war weapons. Weapons that look like military weapons are available to the general public. To put it in perspective the military gets a formula one car with a formula one engine. The general public gets a formula one car with a lawn mower engine. Although they appear the same ther'yre not even close to the same performance. There's been a lot of laws passed to make guns look less military, thumb hole stock comes to mind. All that did was open up a huge market for aftermarket modifiers to sell bolt on parts.

I find these nuances to be irelavent. What's on the market is QUITE deadly and way over what is necessary and sold at gun shows with no background checks.

It's a broken system. What I don't get is why rational reasonable gun owners don't stand up and say "hey, we need to change some things". Forget gun bans... There is a lot wrong elsewhere.

 

[RSO 34]

It's a broken system. What I don't get is why rational reasonable gun owners don't stand up and say "hey, we need to change some things". Forget gun bans... There is a lot wrong elsewhere.

Because we never actually "react" in a logical and rational manner to these issues during times when there are no tragic headlines. However, when a tragic event like this occurs we then "over-react" and tend to go for the perceived obvious answer without looking at collateral issues that are or may be equally important.

For example, we are 25 miles from the Newtown school. We are in a similar type of small town where "nothing happens" on a daily basis. Today, after 72 hours straight of news coverage of these events, our schools were locked down because a mom in Ridgefield thought she might have seen a man with a rifle. Immediately our schools got locked down, the email alert system went into effect and, of course, with current cell phone technology all the kids inside learned why there were locked down through text messages from parents checking on them. Nothing like causing a panic immediately after the events on friday by over-reacting and reporting you think you may have seen a man with a rifle in town and then immediately going into lockdown mode. I'm all for protecting the defenseless kids but this happening 72 hours later caused more stress and anxiety than needed.

Shortly after that this email was sent around about the changes being implemented. Once again, I'm all for safety precautions but I still think we are over-reacting too soon after the tragedy to the point where I will need a background check run on me before I can enter the school because my 12 yr old forgot her lunch or homework again. Study the event and make changes but do them in a rational manner.

"As the nation continues to grieve over the Newtown tragedy, we know the days and weeks ahead will continue to be challenging. Children are critical to the life of the xxxxx community and we have all been shaken by these most recent events. It is clear that we need to provide comfort and support to our students as well as take increased measures to keep our schools safe.


The District Crisis Team met to identify the following goals and plans for the coming days and moving forward.


Our Goals:


Provide support to students, staff, and families as they cope with sadness and grief;
Assist students, staff, and families by following expert mental health guidance, providing reassurance and support, and following predictable and normal routines;

To increase security.

Our immediate plans:

Provide “safe places” for students and staff to cope with their sadness.
Address students in a developmentally appropriate way.
Run schools on a regular schedule. Each school will decide about its scheduled holiday events for the week. Our goal is to follow normal schedules and planned school events as much as possible.
Provide guidance for students who need extra support.

Security:

The xxxxxx Police Department and State Troopers will be on heightened patrol at our schools throughout the week.
We are in the process of enlisting the assistance of security guards at each campus to be stationed at the front of each school ASAP.
We will work with security experts, xxxxxxx Police Department, and State Troopers to increase our security. Including, but not limited to the following:
Purchasing software to allow us to run a security check on any visitor that comes to a school.
Installation of security cameras at xxx and xxx (xxx and xxx already have cameras).
Building/modifying security stations at each campus to allow us to “buzz” visitors into school after security has cleared them.
Security stations that allow for live monitoring of security cameras.

Certainly, the Newtown events will be examined in great detail by police and security experts. As a result, updated recommendations will be provide to all schools. We will continue to work with the security experts from BOCES and law enforcement officials. The recommendations of these experts will drive our plans into the future. "

 

[Ponyboy]

What's on the market is QUITE deadly and way over what is necessary...

What level of arms are necessary to secure a free state?

 

[TURBO2GO]

Because we never actually "react" in a logical and rational manner to these issues during times when there are no tragic headlines. However, when a tragic event like this occurs we then "over-react" and tend to go for the perceived obvious answer without looking at collateral issues that are or may be equally important.

For example, we are 25 miles from the Newtown school. We are in a similar type of small town where "nothing happens" on a daily basis. Today, after 72 hours straight of news coverage of these events, our schools were locked down because a mom in Ridgefield thought she might have seen a man with a rifle. Immediately our schools got locked down, the email alert system went into effect and, of course, with current cell phone technology all the kids inside learned why there were locked down through text messages from parents checking on them. Nothing like causing a panic immediately after the events on friday by over-reacting and reporting you think you may have seen a man with a rifle in town and then immediately going into lockdown mode. I'm all for protecting the defenseless kids but this happening 72 hours later caused more stress and anxiety than needed.

Shortly after that this email was sent around about the changes being implemented. Once again, I'm all for safety precautions but I still think we are over-reacting too soon after the tragedy to the point where I will need a background check run on me before I can enter the school because my 12 yr old forgot her lunch or homework again. Study the event and make changes but do them in a rational manner.

"As the nation continues to grieve over the Newtown tragedy, we know the days and weeks ahead will continue to be challenging. Children are critical to the life of the xxxxx community and we have all been shaken by these most recent events. It is clear that we need to provide comfort and support to our students as well as take increased measures to keep our schools safe.


The District Crisis Team met to identify the following goals and plans for the coming days and moving forward.


Our Goals:


Provide support to students, staff, and families as they cope with sadness and grief;
Assist students, staff, and families by following expert mental health guidance, providing reassurance and support, and following predictable and normal routines;

To increase security.

Our immediate plans:

Provide “safe places” for students and staff to cope with their sadness.
Address students in a developmentally appropriate way.
Run schools on a regular schedule. Each school will decide about its scheduled holiday events for the week. Our goal is to follow normal schedules and planned school events as much as possible.
Provide guidance for students who need extra support.

Security:

The xxxxxx Police Department and State Troopers will be on heightened patrol at our schools throughout the week.
We are in the process of enlisting the assistance of security guards at each campus to be stationed at the front of each school ASAP.
We will work with security experts, xxxxxxx Police Department, and State Troopers to increase our security. Including, but not limited to the following:
Purchasing software to allow us to run a security check on any visitor that comes to a school.
Installation of security cameras at xxx and xxx (xxx and xxx already have cameras).
Building/modifying security stations at each campus to allow us to “buzz” visitors into school after security has cleared them.
Security stations that allow for live monitoring of security cameras.

Certainly, the Newtown events will be examined in great detail by police and security experts. As a result, updated recommendations will be provide to all schools. We will continue to work with the security experts from BOCES and law enforcement officials. The recommendations of these experts will drive our plans into the future. "

Bob what's your point? That gun owners are calm and anyone wanting to see fewer guns in the hands of loonies is "overreacting"? Why are you posting a story of this false alarm by a panic'ed person as a reply to my post? I think it's ludicrous for any rational person to sit back and say everything is "just fine"... just because the issue comes up after a shooting, I wouldn't call it an overreaction. I don't feel any differently about this today than I did 2 years ago. I'm certainly not "overreacting". Why am I the enemy here? I'm not taking anyone's rights away.

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What level of arms are necessary to secure a free state?

Free a state??? What are you talking about? An armed revolt?

 

[RSO 34]

Sorry, Dave, but I give up. When things can't be read in context and then are taken as an attack on another post it just further demonstrates that emotions cloud thinking and statements get misconstrued.

I posted what I did to demonstrate that as a rational gun owner who believes in controls I take issue with a blanket "ban guns" argument every time a tragedy like this occurs when there are collateral matters such as available and effective treament for both individuals with mental disorders and their caregivers/families.

Time for me to bow out of this one. To me it just proves my point that people act/react/over-react emotionally (and understandably) but change needs to be discussed and developed in something other than a knee jerk reaction immediately after a tragedy occurs.

And now back to your regular programming...........

 

[Jack Sparrow]

yes, things have become awful. Teachers taking precautions to prevent harm to the children families entrust them with should never be allowed

So let's just give children guns as well and have ourselves a good ol' shoot out a la the O.K. Corral. Do you not realize how ridiculous this is?

Your statement was somehow meant to draw a correlation between religious people and irrationality. That in and of it self is a blanket statement that you are not able to defend... Irrelevant at best and shows you are obviously extremely biased in what you are about to say...

Last time I heard, so were drugs... So, again... Irrelevant argument. You suggest no reasonable change, only to ban ban ban.


I am NOT in favor of the kind of situation you talk about. We have laws to prevent unqualified people from operating motor vehicles, prevent unqualified people from practicing certain professions, etc.

I like how you attempt to attack me but deliver no rational argument to change things for the better. Status quo: CHECK

What I AM in favor of is responsible gun ownership. Same as responsible motor vehicle ownership... Not everyone should be allowed to operate a motor vehicle. Not everyone should be allowed to own a firearm. No blanket "get rid of guns" statements. I AM in favor of coming up with solutions that are not "knee-jerk" and will actually have a benefit. Ever hear of Prohibition? Didn't work out as planned... There are lots of things around us that are harmful. We need a good mix of regulation and personal responsibility. Not a one-sided ban.

Isn't "responsible gun ownership" what we've had for the past 200+ years? It's funny how we all love one Japanese car yet can't seem to share their ideals as well. Japan does not allow their citizens to own any guns, their crime rates are lower, and have almost zero gun related deaths/year.

For example:
I would be perfectly fine if laws limited the magazine capacity of handguns to 10 rounds (regardless of caliber).
I would be perfectly fine if you were required to complete a class similar to the CWP class before you could even own a gun. You have to take drivers ed and pass a test for a car after-all.
I would be perfectly fine if laws banned all semi-auto long-guns. If you are using it for its intended purpose, I don't think you need semi-auto capabilities to kill a deer.
I would be perfectly fine if people with mental disorders or convicted of violent crime were unable to ever own a gun of any sort. Enforce high penalties for convicts that are found with a gun.

That is your opinion. I see it as a tool for defense. Anyone can use a tool irresponsibly but nobody talks about outlawing hammers. The popular media, video games, movies, etc all show guns as offensive weapons which contribute to the problem of people categorizing guns as inherently evil and invoking "knee-jerk" reactions of BAN BAN BAN.

Sorry but I think the time to make stricter gun laws has passed. It's time to get rid of guns all together. How many more lives need to be lost until we get things right?

Terrorists kill Americans & we spend billions on a War on Terror. Americans killed daily by guns, not a word is spoken against the gun lobby.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Bob if you're still suggesting I am emotional, it is just not the case. As I said I feel no differently about this before or after this shooting.

 

[steveny]

I find these nuances to be irelavent. What's on the market is QUITE deadly and way over what is necessary and sold at gun shows with no background checks.

It's a broken system. What I don't get is why rational reasonable gun owners don't stand up and say "hey, we need to change some things". Forget gun bans... There is a lot wrong elsewhere.

My open offer to you.... You go to a gun show in NY and purchase a gun at any table without any background check or filling out any paperwork, record it on video and I will personally donate 500 dollars to the charity of your choice and I will say your right. If you can't do so then you come back and say you're wrong and were misinformed.

 

[westernb4]

does anyone here know of specific examples where there is a gap/weakness in our current healthcare for emotionaly disabled people.....do the rules kinda force illequiped parents/guardians with this responsability?

In fact the majority of adults with SERIOUS mental illness, because they are unable to maintain a job or a spouse with health insurance end up with medicaid or no insurance. At that point, their only option is to seek help at a "Community Mental Health Center", staffed largely with near minimum wage, high school educated "counselors".
Access to psychiatrists at these facilities is possible but limited and brief because of their cost.

 

[Ponyboy]

Free a state??? What are you talking about? An armed revolt?

Oh my.

The 2nd Amendment provides "a well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." The 2nd Amend makes no mention of the right to hunt or shoot clays or targets. It specifically notes "...necessary to the security of a free State."

So let's just give children guns as well and have ourselves a good ol' shoot out a la the O.K. Corral. Do you not realize how ridiculous this is?

Really I don't know how you graduate from teachers protecting their students in a crisis to giving guns to children. One group are college educated instructors that are trained in whichever specific area they're teaching. The other are the most vulnerable people in society and need protection...obviously.

I respect your opinion even though it is wrong Constitutionally and logically and though it is the polar opposite of my own. That's not meant as a personal attack, just the facts based on critical reason.

 

[Vega$ NSX]

Sorry but I think the time to make stricter gun laws has passed. It's time to get rid of guns all together. How many more lives need to be lost until we get things right?
[/COLOR]

The problem with your thinking is that it's idealistic, not realistic. Just how do you suppose you get rid of all guns? Ask people to nicely turn them in? Arrest everyone that has a gun? Just how do you suppose you take away someone's gun when you don't have a gun yourself? Do you think a law banning guns is going to eliminate guns altogether? Last I checked, drugs are highly illegal, yet most people can get just about any type of drug in less than 24 hours.

I agree with what you are saying and your reasonings behind them. I'm a gun owner, but as I said in my previous post, I'd much rather live in a world where there we no guns at all. But the the problem is that guns are already out there in mass numbers. There is no way you are going to get rid of them at this point, or even make them inaccessible. So rather than dwelling on a scenario that is never going to happen, it's best to look at what is best with the situation we have at hand. To use your nuclear weapon example, what if North Korea, Afghanistan, Iran, and Iraq all got had nuclear weapons. You would feel fine getting rid of all of our nuclear weapons? How do you think you could stop them from having nuclear weapons? Ask them nicely? By force? Any attacks would provoke them from using them on us, to which we have no retaliation.

I just don't see a scenario where there are no guns and no nuclear weapons. Because of that, I feel better sleeping at night knowing I have my own gun to protect myself and my country has it's own nuclear weapons to protect itself.