Dealer BS or Real Problem

[JAMMAN]

Hi All, hopefully you can give me your opinion on this one. I had my 1991 (37K) in for state inspection on Monday. I mentioned an annoying problem that I've noticed and asked them to check it out. The progblem: After driving I can smell coolant, checking the engine compartment there's coolant on top/around the coolant resivor. Not a lot, but enought to be annoying and I do have to check the level frequently. I've replaced the cap and the hose clamps with no change.

The dealer is telling me that there's a problem with the engine ($1300 labor and $1400 parts). They are telling me that back pressure is causing the coolant leak. They claim that there is a header problem where coolant is getting into the combustion chamber and hydrocarbons are entering the cooling system. They are telling me that this is someting that may slowly worse or quickly cause serious engine damage. They are recommending removing the heads checking them for cracks (which could increase costs even more). They are basing their theory by the results of the emissions testing.

Should I get a second opinion? Should I not worry about this? BTW, it needed nothing for inspection.

Other info: I've the second/third owner (not sure) I bought it with 22K miles. Never had any overheaing problem, or any other problem for that matter.

Thanks,

Jim

 

[nsxtasy]

The coolant tank (that big plastic thing in your engine compartment) can develop cracks in the seams and need replacement. This is a fairly common problem, and costs maybe a couple hundred bucks to fix. That would be my first guess.

Did your dealer give you any evidence to support their contention that there might be coolant in the engine? Can you post the results of the emissions test here? I'm sure one of our NSX tech wizards, like Pettitt or Barn Man, can give you knowledgeable advice.

If it turns out to be just the coolant tank, I would consider taking your NSX elsewhere when you need any service more complicated than changing the oil or brake pads (even if it means traveling some distance e.g. Akron or Philly)...

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 25 February 2003).]

 

[ALIENT]

Pick yourself up a Head tester.. It's a device that checks for exhaust gases in your coolant. This should tell if you have a problem with your head..

 

[Vytas]

I recommend you get a second opinion before any work is done on the car, preferably by an NSX knowledgeable mechanic. Not all Acura dealers have NSX certified techs. Sounds like this dealer is "guessing" at the source of the problem.

You may want to check the entire plastic coolant tank. They are known to crack and leak.

 

[tunapie]

You can check for a head gasket leak by filling up the tank all the way with water and with the engine running watch for bubbles. My guess is they put there emissions sniffer in the tank and found exhaust gas. Also check and see if the tailpipe has a residue inside. A compression test will show for sure. Is your car FI,. Dan

 

[LJSB]

I would check the coolant tank as suggested.
You seem to be close enough to Davis Acura. http://www.davisacura.com/en_US/
Why not go there and get Bernie's diagnosis? He's has a rep as being one of the best NSX technicians around.

------------------
www.vincesautobodyworks.com

 

[Jimbo]

Well, Pittsburgh is about 5 hours away from Davis Acura.

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
1976 Honda Accord 5 spd, 3 door Blue/Blue
1977 Honda Accord - Custom - Under Construction
2003 MINI Cooper S - On Order - All Black
1986 Chevy Suburban
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

 

[MYNSX]

If your problem is the same as mine "small cracks" in the resevior.Replace the coolant tank as suggested and the problem might be resolved.It worked for me.
Good Luck


------------------
WWW.MYNSX.COM

 

[HotRod]

I had the same problem. A small crack in the coolant tank caused it. Try removing the coolant reservoir first and examine the area around the empty full lettering closely. I think that is where the week spots are.

Rod

 

[JAMMAN]

Guys, thanks for the advice. I'll ask them in more detail how they determined this was the problem and have them fax me the emission results. I think I'll wait on having the work done so I can try some of the test you suggested at home. I don't think it's a cracked case, because if I wrap a rag around the hose coming into the case it will soak up the coolant. And yes I have changed the clamp (but not the hose).

If it is a header problem, should I get it taken care of right away or do I have some time? And more importantly, should this happen to a car with such low miles? This really surprised me, since I've had the car for two years and got it with 22K, I wonder if the problem existed before I bought it. The guy I bought it off of was a family guy and his wife was the one that drove it. Oh well,,,

Thanks again.

 

[DanO]

Does your car have forced induction or NOS? To your knowledge has it or does it overheat? If the answer to any of these questions is yes, then I think there is a higher likelihood that there is a head gasket problem and/or warped/cracked head(s); otherwise I would consider it unlikely.

As tunapie suggested, a compression test and/or leakdown test on all cylinders would be helpful to determine the extent of the problem. $1,400 parts sounds rather high. I think I replaced my head gaskets and ALL related gaskets, o-rings, seals, washers, t-belt, etc. for around $800. $1,300 labor sounds a little high but in the neighborhood for labor if they are going to replace both head gaskets and related stuff.

If the compression test shows a problem and your dealership doesn’t have experience working with NSX or VTEC engines then I’d consider transporting your car to Bernie at Davis Acura or see if the Barnman will travel.

The head gaskets can be replaced without removing the engine from the car, but it might be easier and less overall labor to remove the engine. It is proper advice to have the heads checked at a machine shop for cracks, warps and to get them all cleaned up. If the heads do come out, you might want to get the machine shop’s opinion on the condition of the valve seals. It should be relatively inexpensive to have all the seals replaced, but probably not necessary.

Good luck and please keep us informed,

DanO



[This message has been edited by DanO (edited 26 February 2003).]

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by DanO:
If the compression test shows a problem and your dealership doesn’t have experience working with NSX or VTEC engines then I’d consider transporting your car to Bernie at Davis Acura or see if the Barnman will travel.

There are three Acura dealers in the Pittsburgh area. I don't know if any of them do much NSX service work, though. Park Acura in Akron (110 miles away) has had a good reputation for NSX service, although I haven't heard much recently about them. Davis Acura north of Philly is 315 miles away.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Jamman,

You have gotten pretty much all the bases covered above. You did mention you see coolant "on the top" of the coolant reservior correct?

I would consider changing the reservior cap, if you have not done so, it is common that they seal poorly with age. Probably $10 or so, not a high risk expense!!!

HTH,
LarryB

 

[Lud]

There are three likely ways for you to be blowing coolant out:

1. You have air in your cooling system. This is not likely to spontaneously occur - you need to introduce the air somehow, usually by doing something that opens it up such as replacing a hose or thermostat.

2. You have a leaking hose or coolant overflow tank or a bad cap on the overflow tank. These are all pretty easy to check. The tank or cap are fairly common issues on an 12+ year old car. If the overflow tube against the firewall is dry inside, I'd definitely pressure test the overflow tank (or just replace it - it's already 12 years old).

3. Your coolant system is being over-pressurized because there is a leak that is letting combustion gasses under pressure get into the coolant system. A blown head gasket for example would be a common cause. This is very uncommon in a properly maintained 37k mile car, particularly one that does not have nitrous or forced induction, but anything is possible. This is farily easy to test for and there are two common quick and easy tests.

The first is to use a dye test. Lots of shops have them, or you can buy them at many auto parts stores (NAPA, etc.). These kits go by a few names such as block tester, combusion leak tester, etc. but they all work pretty much the same way - they turn a color if there is exhaust contamination in your coolant.

The second, and increasingly common (because it is faster and easier) test is for a shop to put their emissions tester into the coolant overflow bottle. If it picks up exhaust gases, you've probably got a problem. It sounds like this may be what the shop did with your car since you mentioned hydrocarbons in the cooling system, which is exactly what this test is looking for.


I would certainly get a second opinion if it is diagnosed as #3 and you are not comfortable with the shop or mechanic who made the diagnosis - any shop with an emissions tester probe can do it for minimal labor.

If #3 is your problem, you definitely need to have it fixed. The same leak that lets the combusion gasses into your coolant can let coolant into your cylinders and that is not healthy for your engine. If you have a lot of white smoke from your exhaust (esp. on startup) or any milky looing gunk on the bottom of your oil filler cap, those are big red flags that you may be leaking considerable coolant into your engine.

In my opinion overheating is by far the most likely reason a 37k mile NSX would have #3 as a problem. Overheating can cause all kinds of seal and gasket leaks over time, and can damage aluminum blocks pretty quickly. If you think the car has overheated seriously enough to damage the head gasket, I'd have them check for any other possible damage and would really consider replacing all the seals and gaskets while you have it apart to replace the head gaskets.

Good luck and let us know what else you find out. Definitely get a 2nd opinion before thinking the worst re: #3. I really hope your problem is something more minor.

[This message has been edited by Lud (edited 04 March 2003).]

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Larry Bastanza:
I would consider changing the reservior cap, if you have not done so, it is common that they seal poorly with age. Probably $10 or so, not a high risk expense!!!

He said he already did...

 

[JAMMAN]

All, I having the Mechanic call me and I'll run all of your tips past him. There are other Acura Dealerships in Pittsburgh that I could consider. This one Baierl Acura, is kinda close to me and I'm pretty sure that the Mechanic is NSX trained. I know I have seen other NSX at the garage.

To answer a few other things that were asked: No NOS - the car is all stock. I have not seen any residue except for the normal? black powder on the lower lip of the exhaust pipes. No smoke, no overheating. And I have replaced the cap.

Jim

[This message has been edited by JAMMAN (edited 26 February 2003).]

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by JAMMAN:
I have not seen any residue except for the normal? black powder on the lower lip of the exhaust pipes.

Yes, that's normal.

 

[LJSB]

Originally posted by Jimbo:
Well, Pittsburgh is about 5 hours away from Davis Acura.

-Jim

Duh,
Guess I better look at a map. Sorry, it only takes me 3 hrs from here in NY, wasn't thinking.

 

[Barn Man]

Tell them you want a new coolant jug. Then go along your merry way. I SERIOUSLY doubt you have any other problems. Then find another dealer to go to if the problem is corrected. I hate stories like this. It makes the good dealers look bad. You know, the one bad apple thing.
Barn Man....

 

[nsx_parts]

Did the car see any track events where it may have been run hot for long periods of time?

------------------
Please visit http://www.nsxparts.com. The best place to buy and sell parts for your NSX.

 

[hammer_152131]

Hey Jamman,

I'm from Pittsburgh too. I use the guys at Spitzer to do some of the work on my NSX. I also have a friend who owns a little garage and specializes in foreign cars. So, he basically does the majority of my work.

Nothing major though. That's being saved up for the true NSX-Mechanics

Also, I don't like to hear comments "Man, your car is really really fast" after picking my car up at the dealer for an oil change. So that's why I have my friend work on my cars.

If there is major work that needs to be done. and if you're looking at flying in the "experts", I'd be willing to split costs cause I'm looking to do some major work to the car too.

i.e.
Timing Belt
Short Gears
Swap out CTSC for a BBSC

(If I do this, anybody interested in buying the CTSC?, it has about 20k miles on it)
etc...

Good luck in finding and fixing your problems

 

[JAMMAN]

Update:

I took the car to a friend of mine who works at a Procare shop, told him the story. He stuck the emissions wand into the coolant overflow tank, it hovered around 12-15 HC with the car running. This is nowhere near the 250HC that the dealer was claiming. He also check the oil cap, looked clean no problem there. He basically said that there's no problem with the heads, and to get a new overflow tank (BTW the overflow tube against the firewall is dry).

So, I have two conflicting diagnosis, I'm trying to find the pellets to test the coolant, but the two auto parts stores that I checked didn't have them. I've decided to change the overflow tank first and see if the problem persists, I just have to decide if I should go back to that dealer again. Thanks for the comments about Spitzer Hammer.

Again thanks for all of your help guys, I really appreciate it. It just amazes me that the dealer could make such a mistake, and I really think the mechanic thought the the heads were at fault vs making $$$ off a customer. Then again, maybe I'm just naive.

JAM

 

[sjs]

Just a quick comment. In my experience, sniffing the coolant is often flawed. I'm not sure how often they are genuinely just wrong and how often they are outright fraudulent, but I would not be inclined to drop the big bucks for engine work based on that test alone no matter who does it.

BTW, did they both test it at roughly the same temperature or was one with it cold and the other hot?

[This message has been edited by sjs (edited 03 March 2003).]

 

[nsx_parts]

The problem would be compounded due to the complexity and distances involved in the NSX's cooling system!



------------------
Please visit http://www.nsxparts.com. The best place to buy and sell parts for your NSX.

 

[JAMMAN]

SJS,

I don't know how/when the dealer tested the car. When I had it tested it was warm from driving to the shop. I'm just wondering if I should have a compression test performed just to make sure there isn't a head problem.

Jim