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Deck strength for High HP

RacerX-21 said:
Here are some pic's of the deck mod I mentioned.

As noted above I once considered a very similar approach but was concerned that they may not distribute the loads evenly and lead to other problems. I'll be very interested in the long-term results. Hopefully my concerns are unfounded because this would be a relatively simple mod. However, I'm a bit surprised that they are not more evenly spaced, leaving a large section unsupported at the ends. Why was that done? How long are the dowel inserts?
 
Of course the majority of the load is on the lower side of the cylinder with the second largest percentage on the upper, almost no load on the sides as the pin is not spherical, and the piston can only move rotationally, linear to the stroke. The stock walls have been strong enough to sustain 725 HP continuous, and are more then strong enough to contain the pressure of 1000+ horsepower, if flex was not present. It’s the flex of the wall that will ultimately cause failure around 825 HP. By eliminating the flex or amount of flex, I will likely be able to sustain my target of 800+.

A cast sleeve that doesn’t extend to the deck is eliminating one of the best features of the Honda engine design, without adding any strength.

Most of the builders are never going to see 700+ HP, so problems likely wont arise with either the stock or the un-supported sleeves.

The unsupported sleeve is still held in place with the stock lower aluminum… it’s not the sleeves lack of ability to contain the pressure, its flex! I would say that a cast-sleeved block with support that goes to the deck would likely be the strongest. Good for engines above 1000 HP with limited cooling needs, like drag racing.

Back to the Honda Design- Your stock block has aluminum sleeves that are plated with something similar to “Nickacile” (Yamaha’s version). The reason for this advancement is superior heat dissipation for leaner running/racing engines, without sticking pistons. This technology is usually only found in high performance two-strokes. And should be retained if at all possible. If you need to bore, then re-plate the walls by a reputable plater with cylinder experience.

One other note- before you have problems with your stock sleeves, you will first have problems with the stock main caps, then the stock rod bolts.

Also keep in mind that a catastrophic failure usually will destroy more then one area of the engine;

If a main cap gets stretched causing oiling problems and the crank fails, a rod will fail and bust out a cylinder wall with a piston in multiple pieces. The point is that catastrophic failures lead to someone’s opinion of what the cause was. Was it the piston, or the cylinder wall, or the rod, or the rod bolts, or the crank, or the mains, or the main bolts, or the bearing clearance or the oil pump, or the tuner running too lean? The only way to tell is to disassemble and measure parts, including reassembling the remaining parts and measuring bolt stretch and bearing clearance and out of round. Most will only visually inspect and form an opinion, and a mechanic looking at a rod sticking out of the side of a block is purely guessing.

I hope that didn’t sound too bitter, and more like a logical evolution to the NSX road race engine?
 
RacerX-21 said:
Of course the majority of the load is on the lower side of the cylinder with the second largest percentage on the upper, almost no load on the sides as the pin is not spherical, and the piston can only move rotationally, linear to the stroke. The stock walls have been strong enough to sustain 725 HP continuous, and are more then strong enough to contain the pressure of 1000+ horsepower, if flex was not present. It’s the flex of the wall that will ultimately cause failure around 825 HP. By eliminating the flex or amount of flex, I will likely be able to sustain my target of 800+.

Interesting. Perhaps I was most concerned about the wrong loads. Dating back to problems people had with adding turbos to open deck 300ZX blocks, and later with 944s etc., I was always lead to believe that the sheer pressure and heat of combustion caused the cylinders to go out of round. More recently I have heard people talking about the cylinders moving as the main concern. It sounds like you are saying that the latter is correct and the thrust of the piston pressing against the cylinders is the cause. Sounds obvious enough now that I think about it.

But then you use the term "flex", which to me sounds more like what I've always heard and possibly misinterpreted. So by "flex" do you really mean "wiggle"?

You also said "A cast sleeve that doesn’t extend to the deck is eliminating one of the best features of the Honda engine design, without adding any strength. " but I've not heard of any sleeves like that. In fact, how could they not top at the same level as the block and still seal via the head gasket? I must have misunderstood something there.

Anyway, thanks for your patience. This is good stuff indeed.

Now I'm off to Vegas!
 
RacerX-21 said:
a logical evolution to the NSX road race engine

I'm going to guess that by the comments you've made and the info you've sought in this forum that you succeeded in getting the powers that be in SCCA Pro, and more specifically World Challege, to change the specs regarding the NSX motor in supercharged trim?

Last time I checked, in order to run the supercharger, the stock internals had to be retained? If thats no longer the case, what did you talk them into and how much boost/compression are they going to allow you to run?

Would be nice if they didn't handicap the NSX as severely as they did when PD was driving his last year.
 
sjs said:

You also said "A cast sleeve that doesn’t extend to the deck is eliminating one of the best features of the Honda engine design, without adding any strength. " but I've not heard of any sleeves like that. In fact, how could they not top at the same level as the block and still seal via the head gasket? I must have misunderstood something there.

Anyway, thanks for your patience. This is good stuff indeed.

Now I'm off to Vegas!

This is somewhat common http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22161
 
Brian Bailey said:

Last time I checked, in order to run the supercharger, the stock internals had to be retained? If thats no longer the case, what did you talk them into and how much boost/compression are they going to allow you to run?


Brian, The internals do have to stay stock in terms of dimensions or performance gain.

Bore has to stay the same (some tolerance is allowed)
Stroke has to stay the same- No knife edging
Pin location on the rods has to be the same- No Titanium unless you’re lucky enough to have it stock.
Pistons are free, but compression has to stay the same.
The VTS also allows specific Comptech listed cams.
Valves can be changed, but must be the same diameter and no Titanium.
Rockers must stay the same ratio
Intake and throttle body are stock, but for every car the rules are individualized – The Audi has custom fabricated individual throttle bodies.

Would be nice if they didn't handicap the NSX as severely as they did when PD was driving his last year.

Yes- Large shoes to fill.
 
RacerX-21 said:

OK, sorry. I read it too fast on my way out the door. By "extend to the deck" you meant in the horizontal plane, not the vertical. That should have been obvious enough but I read it wrong.

I don't doubt that there comes a point when "closing the deck" or at least something like you have done becomes necessary, but the real question is where's that limit. The more info I gather from talking with others the more I'm inclined to think that standard Dartons done correctly are adequate for the power levels I'm looking for from a turbo (~450 at the wheels). But I'm very interested in hear more from anyone with a different view or experience to the contrary. I'm not here to argue, I'm here to learn and share.

I'll need to look back yet again, but as I recall Gerry had trouble at those levels with stock sleeves then moved directly to the Pro closed deck solution. I'd be interested in hearing from people who have some serious miles on other combinations.
 
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Just bumping this very informative thread while considering what block mods I want to do. I really like the dowel approach and wondered how it held up after all these years. Really this is moot as I'm only targeting 450WHP but found it to be a good read.

I'm also considering o-ringing too.

I just don't know any reputable places that I would feel comfortable doing this. I think I would like to o-ring the deck and heads at the least. Anybody know of a reputable place to have this done? Preferably do an align bore, deck plate bore/hone at the same time?

Thanks,

Dave
 
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Don't sleeve, o-ring, or dowel your block at that level. Stock block/sleeves are OK well past that point. Also, I don't recommend doing an align hone either. Only go down that path if there was damage you are trying to save the block after.

I've built sleeved, dowel'd, and untouched blocks all running past the hp levels you are trying to achieve. Save your money and spend it else ware.

I didn't read this thread again, as I read it years ago, but limits and knowledge about the limits have progressed since then.
 
I agree with Momin, Dont do anything to the block for that power level. I would use ARP head studs and torque them to a higher number that escapes me at the moment. The ARP suggested torque is a minimum spec and is not enough stretch for the NSX engine. Of course I need to find that number if someone else doesnt have it because too much is worse than too little.

Whatever you do, dont dowel it... if you one day get the bug in the future to start pushing above 600, than you can sleeve it.

Last advice before I go, keep the bearing tolerence's tight like the factory and dont let your chevy engine builder talk you into loosening them.

Just bumping this very informative thread while considering what block mods I want to do. I really like the dowel approach and wondered how it held up after all these years. Really this is moot as I'm only targeting 450WHP but found it to be a good read.

I'm also considering o-ringing too.

I just don't know any reputable places that I would feel comfortable doing this. I think I would like to o-ring the deck and heads at the least. Anybody know of a reputable place to have this done? Preferably do an align bore, deck plate bore/hone at the same time?

Thanks,

Dave
 
Oh wow, I'm glad the experts chimed back in!

I will take your advice and leave the block alone then other than a deck plate bore and hone. I have SOS' Wiseco pistons coming, and already have the ARP studs and Cometic gaskets in hand.

I'll be sure and keep the bearing tolerances tight! If you happen to run across your recommended head stud torque values I would appreciate it.

I'm attempting to rebuild this engine myself. Gotta start somewhere I guess. I'm in no hurry, very meticulous, and have a lot of patience. Been reading a lot of books too in preparation (especially on the B-series engines). I always like buying new tools! I have every Honda gasket, rubber, hose, etc ready. Have a new OEM harmonic balancer, forged oil pump gear, new Walbro fuel pump, and will do custom fuel rails. I would just like to get new oversized 3.2L valves, 3.2L valve springs and new keepers/retainers (keeping the OEM cams). Should I stick with new OEM valve springs and keepers/retainers in your opinion? I already have the new LMAs.

After the rebuild and I make sure it runs, I will go with the latest AEM series 2, and custom turbo with meth injection. Then just try to keep it at ~450WHP :smile:

Thank you again,

Dave
 
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Mac,

Good luck with the build. Thanks for bringing back this 7 year old thread. I learned quite a few things. If 450hp is your goal, you should have no problem at all achieving this at reasonable boost levels.

Some of the new precision turbo's are spinning up to full boost as soon as 3500 rpm's. Headers from either SOS or LoveFab(can't remember which)showed some pretty impressive power gains on the dyno over previous style headers.
 
I've built several high hp engines in the past and had one done by SOS on my NSX. Like all designs there is a weak link somewhere. Something that will fail once you cross a hp threshold. Something that is not easily overcome, like a transmission part or whatever. What would you consider that is in the NSX?

I built a high HP Ferrari Testarossa that the diff. carrier was the weak link. I bought a special diff. carrier and now the transfer shaft is the weak link. Trying to determine how much useable hp you can make in a beefed up NSX and what is needed.

Thanks,
John
 

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Mac,

Good luck with the build. Thanks for bringing back this 7 year old thread. I learned quite a few things. If 450hp is your goal, you should have no problem at all achieving this at reasonable boost levels.

Some of the new precision turbo's are spinning up to full boost as soon as 3500 rpm's. Headers from either SOS or LoveFab(can't remember which)showed some pretty impressive power gains on the dyno over previous style headers.

There's a lot of informative threads out there from 6-7+ years ago. A lot of today's questions have been discussed on here a long time ago by the NSX pioneers. It's just hard to find which ones to bump. Just electronics have improved....

I don't like how every turbo vendor on here (except SOS' twin turbo design of course) mounts their turbos so far away from the heads. Just a few feet more downstream and you are basically at the distance of those cheap "muffler mounted turbo kits" for domestic RWD cars. It's a poor design driven by packaging constraints so I can understand. But, I'm a function over form guy so I'm willing to hack up this car to accomplish my specific goals. That's what I alluded to in an older post about placing a single variable-vane geometry turbo basically where the OEM airbox and vacuum controls are. But, I may also just do a smaller twin-turbo setup like SOS does. I'll just ditch the long restricitve intercooled intake piping in favor of a more direct path with meth injection.

It's about time I started a new thread in the build section instead of derailing other threads with my questions and ideas. I'm no engine/FI expert and have a lot of questions.

Trying to determine how much useable hp you can make in a beefed up NSX and what is needed.

Thanks,
John

Sorry John, that solely depends on how much time and money you have to spend. It's generally accepted that for < $10k you can get a reliable 400HP to the wheels. There should be no issues with long-term reliability. 500+WHP becomes exponentially more expensive as you have to deal with engine internals, powertrain mods, fuel mods, etc. Also, at that point, you no longer have traction anyways, and the car also looses it's "driveability" and balanced feel due to the new powerband characteristics.

Good luck!

Dave
 
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Dave,
I have been fortunate in my life to have and have had some pretty special cars. I sold recently my 05 Ford GT which was modified with a pulley and tune to 700hp. All the things you stated are off the shelf products, but at some point the build becomes too risky due to component fatigue or design limitations. My NSX was sent to SOS for a engine mod and larger S/C and now produces around 470hp. I would think you could realize 600-650hp from the engine with the appropriate mods, but that moves the weak link down the power chain. Would the stock 6 speed be able to accept that HP ok?

John
 
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Transmission problems.......specifically 3rd gear has proven to be a problem for a few over the 600 whp mark
 
I have a pair of the Comtech bore braces. been wondering if they make a big difference.
Do they need to be welded in? anyone have any info on how they are meant to be installed?

I can't find the threads now, but I remember reading old threads here that the Comptech braces were welded in. Also it was noted that the old Comptech engine builders didn't want to be bothered.

I think RacerX's dowel pins would be preferred over block guards IMO.

Dave
 
The RealTime NSX used the stock 6 speed with routine HP numbers in the 600 territory.

Engine seems to be the weak point.

Dave,
I have been fortunate in my life to have and have had some pretty special cars. I sold recently my 05 Ford GT which was modified with a pulley and tune to 700hp. All the things you stated are off the shelf products, but at some point the build becomes too risky due to component fatigue or design limitations. My NSX was sent to SOS for a engine mod and larger S/C and now produces around 470hp. I would think you could realize 600-650hp from the engine with the appropriate mods, but that moves the weak link down the power chain. Would the stock 6 speed be able to accept that HP ok?

John
 
The RealTime NSX used the stock 6 speed with routine HP numbers in the 600 territory.

Engine seems to be the weak point.

Although they fitted a brand new 6 speed every race! The used ones were used for testing. This is what they told me when i bought one of the used 6 speeds. They said they'd break the gears or the diff if they put too many miles on them.
 
I can't find the threads now, but I remember reading old threads here that the Comptech braces were welded in. Also it was noted that the old Comptech engine builders didn't want to be bothered.

I think RacerX's dowel pins would be preferred over block guards IMO.

Dave

Block guards are bad news - I too have been pinning honda blocks (some with different dowels or plugs) since around the same time period and really stand by it as a method.
 
Block guards are bad news - I too have been pinning honda blocks (some with different dowels or plugs) since around the same time period and really stand by it as a method.

G'day Angus
Any reason in particular why the Comptech bore braces are no Good? They seem like a nicely made piece. What's the downside?

I see them in a lot of 4 cyl Hondas?
 
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