Depreciation

[TURBO2GO]

I agree with you 100%. I'm having a hard time pulling the trigger, trying to wait for that perfect car/deal. Probem is I'm a very impatient man, but I know as soon as I think I'm not gonna find that perfect car/deal and pull the trigger on a lessor car, then thats when that perfect car/deal will present itself.

Man.... you two need like a group therapy session... :smile: there is no safer bet that this car. I really don't know why you are hesitating so much. ANY NSX in good shape is "that perfect car/deal" simply because of what it is. Its almost a no-brainer. What other car can you drive for years and hardly lose ANY money on? A Fit or a Yaris maybe nothing of this caliber.

Its almost like a free rental.... and you guys are hesitating? for what? New NSX isn't going to hit this one. This car is already 15 years old. Its virtue is not in its bling factor, which is why a Mercedes will drop like a ROCK when a new body style is out. Those cars are bought for the cool factor and you can't be cool when you drive an old body style. The NSX will not look "old" when there is a new one out. It will just be a different model... may even have a different name. It will not cost LESS than this one, they aren't going to get into that game with the Z06. I can GUARANTEE you the new NSX will be AT LEASt 90K, which is what the 05 cost. It ain't going backwards.

If and I mean IF it turns out to be a great car, it will only help the reputation of the old one. This is one exception where a new model introduction will not affect the old one. Wait and you will see. This is a rare, low volume car.

 

[needspeed]

I agree with TURBO2GO:

From what I can tell, I have my doubts that Honda will do a real NSX successor. If they did, it would have to cost well over the current model. I have a hand built, all aluminum, mid engined exotic sports car. Check the competition and it costs a lot more. If Honda goes for big production numbers, then it will be just another nice assembly line car (That means Common to me). This is a very strong point for the NSX. Look at the Ford GT and think that they produced a very limited production super car and it lists for 160K. How can Honda eclipse the NSX for under 100k.....The NSX is a rare fluke in automotive history. If Honda really does make a true NSX successor, then I have no problem with it priced over 100K and if that is the case then it will not diminish the value of the NSX.......Steve

 

[NSX-GUY]

Ok so an orange one pops up. Does it mean it will be in the same condition? as clean or with as few owners?

I think you need to find a car you like, pull the trigger and not look back.

Ahhhhh, but that's the problem. The car dead stock has NO options. I have no desire for CTSC, turbo or any of those other performance options. That makes color the only real difference in equivalent cars. I am (at least somewhat) "hooked" on Imola Orange, hence my problem. And it's not the depreciation factor as much as not wanting to spend 55K+ on my "2nd" choice. :redface:

 

[steveny]

all I know is that I bought my 91 in June 2003 and just recently sold her :frown: last month for $2500 MORE than I paid, $3700 MORE if you include the $1200 that I got for the OEM rims I sold after getting some Volks...Sure I put some money into her with 60K sevice, Bilsteins, Volks and other little things, but after enjoying the hell out of owning one for almost 2 years and getting back almost every penny I spent is something I don't think ANY other car could come close to doing in terms of "depreciation"...As long as you take excellent care of her, she'll take excellent care of you...That is why my wife is already giving me the green light on getting my next one as soon as the dust settles on the sell of current home and purchase of our new home :smile:
In essence, it was like having a savings account that you get to drive around town with a big grin on your face :biggrin:
That was just MY experience, with a '91 NSX...I'm sure not all experiences are the same with different years and such, so just MY take....


Can't wait for the dust to settle!!!


BTW, thats why they say when it comes to cars "NEVER buy new" unless you can afford to burn $$$ :redface:

Pretty much the same story with my car except I bought it from a dealership and traded it back in at the SAME dealership 4 years latter at a 4k profit. Unheard of.

 

[DDankew]

Bought my first 1991 in 1999 for $ 30,500 with 29K miles. Sold it a year later for $ 33,000 with 33K miles. Fast forward 2006 , I bought a 1991 with 26K miles for $ 33,000.

Enough said. Both cars , mint condition, same options.

 

[MCM]

I think the 91-94's may have seen the bottom.
High mileage, poor condition, highly modified could continue to drop.
After 92, numbers produced really dropped.
(well under 1000 cars to US per yr.)
Supply and demand will keep prices firm.........
I do not see how anyone could ever produce this car for less than 100k.
So it will continue to be a bargain.
As I recall Honda lost $$$ on every NSX ever built.

Food for thought........

 

[MoreRPMs]

I do not see how anyone could ever produce this car for less than 100k.

Other than titanium rods (which aren't a big deal nowadays) what on the car do you think has such a great production cost? I saw a reference to a Japanese magazine article that claimed that Honda found how to cut aluminum production costs by something like 80% back in mid to late 90s. As for the engine block, it was nothing revolutionary even back in '90. Forged suspension arms? There are $30,000 cars today that use them.

My guess to the cost of producing the car as it stood in its last year, parts and labor...no more than $15K USD. And that's being very generous per man-hour of work.

As I recall Honda lost $$$ on every NSX ever built.

I've heard/read that too. Nothing more than unsubstantiated claim.

 

[lowellhigh79]

Prices will not go any lower for 91-95 models, although newer models will settle some more, maybe to low 40s. Just look at what you can get for the same amount in a new 30K car. Frequent questions like S2000 or used NSX?, STI or used NSX?, 350Z or used NSX? The NSX was groundbreaking in 1991, and still fresh today. Combine that with Honda reliability and I don't see any non high mileage NSXs competing against new cars selling for under 30K. Prices may even go up a little by the end of the month.:wink:

Regards,

Danny

 

[MCM]

I know you are just stirring the pot. (and might be 13 years old)
But it was fun answering your questions.

Other than titanium rods (which aren't a big deal nowadays) what on the car do you think has such a great production cost?


A: Its not really a production car looking at the numbers produced.

I saw a reference to a Japanese magazine article that claimed that Honda found how to cut aluminum production costs by something like 80% back in mid to late 90s.

Not really sure How Honda found a way to cut costs on a more or less hand assembled, hand fit car? And if they found a way to cut costs on alum bodies by 80%, you would have thought someone else would be mass producing cheap alum cars?

As for the engine block, it was nothing revolutionary even back in '90. Forged suspension arms? There are $30,000 cars today that use them.

The engine was ahead of its time. Still not too much out there to compare it too. Come to think of it, how many 3 liter V6 engines propel' d cars to 170 mph 15 years ago? How many today for that matter?

My guess to the cost of producing the car as it stood in its last year, parts and labor...no more than $15K USD. And that's being very generous per man-hour of work.

Are you serious? I am trying to understand your confusion but am coming up short.
Have you ever driven an NSX? I can not get a car painted at the NSX's level for $15k in my area.
Let alone build an entire car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MCM
As I recall Honda lost $$$ on every NSX ever built.

I've heard/read that too. Nothing more than unsubstantiated claim.


Think about it.
How could you do the R&D, Build a specific factory with a test track for one specific model,
Hand built it from almost all alum using your top employees, Make less than 1500 per year for 15 years
and make money? Look at it as a gift, as it will probably never happen again.

Since you called B.S on my post, I thought you should know who your talking to. Enjoy my photo:

 

[MoreRPMs]

I know you are just stirring the pot. (and might be 13 years old)
But it was fun answering your questions.

Other than titanium rods (which aren't a big deal nowadays) what on the car do you think has such a great production cost?


A: Its not really a production car looking at the numbers produced.

13? No. Much closer to 50 than to 13.
Not really a production car? What is it..a spaceship? Your answer, by the way, had nothing to do with my original statement.

I saw a reference to a Japanese magazine article that claimed that Honda found how to cut aluminum production costs by something like 80% back in mid to late 90s.

Not really sure How Honda found a way to cut costs on a more or less hand assembled, hand fit car? And if they found a way to cut costs on alum bodies by 80%, you would have thought someone else would be mass producing cheap alum cars?

Didn't Audi mass-produce some cheap aluminum econobox some 8 or 10 years ago, for the Euro market only?

As for the engine block, it was nothing revolutionary even back in '90. Forged suspension arms? There are $30,000 cars today that use them.

The engine was ahead of its time. Still not too much out there to compare it too. Come to think of it, how many 3 liter V6 engines propel' d cars to 170 mph 15 years ago? How many today for that matter?

An engine block from a problem-riddled-sedan is what it was. Only the headwork is what enabled it to reach mediocre power levels. Now before you go blowing your top, remember it only came with 270 ponies; it wasn't a 400 hp beast.

My guess to the cost of producing the car as it stood in its last year, parts and labor...no more than $15K USD. And that's being very generous per man-hour of work.

Are you serious? I am trying to understand your confusion but am coming up short.
Have you ever driven an NSX? I can not get a car painted at the NSX's level for $15k in my area.
Let alone build an entire car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MCM
As I recall Honda lost $$$ on every NSX ever built.

I've heard/read that too. Nothing more than unsubstantiated claim.


Think about it.
How could you do the R&D, Build a specific factory with a test track for one specific model,
Hand built it from almost all alum using your top employees, Make less than 1500 per year for 15 years
and make money? Look at it as a gift, as it will probably never happen again.

Your foreignness really comes out during your reading comprehension skills (loved your pic, btw). Where did you see me say production cost included the R&D? I specifically mentioned parts and labor only;not the cost of the factory, the tooling, all the executives golf club memberships and fancy dinners.

As for not able to get your car painted for less than 15 big ones, I guess that's the nature of the auto business. Back in '98 I had little mishap with my Integra- needed a new front bumper, hood, headlights, push out one of the fenders. It was $4800 of total damage from the body shop;and there was NO frame damage. How much would you like to bet that that it didn't cost Honda anywhere near that much (parts and labor only- R&D is irrelevant for purposes of this discussion)to build a GS-R? And off the assembly line they throw in an engine, trans, interior, etc.....anything that wasn't replaced when a front end was slightly crumpled.

 

[MCM]

I may not know jack & don't bother with spelling, or sentence structure much here. Just don't care I guess............:biggrin:

But am close to your age and have watched some cars value rise and others fall. Have a pretty good track record actually over the past 30 yrs. playing with about 30 Muscle & sports cars.

But I did not buy my current NSX as an investment, just couldn't pass up buying one about 1 1/2 yrs. ago (when I heard they were stopping production prior to the official announcement). I realized clean examples will be more difficult to find from here on out and was shocked to find a car I had always wanted (a coupe) had depreciated from just under 80k to the low
30's. Also never knew how few were actually imported. While the car I sold prior to buying this one had jumped to a hair under 6 figures.
It was an opportunity I could not pass up. The timing just seemed right.
I could sell my 94 tomorrow and not loose a dime. That was not my intention, but is always nice when it works out that way.

There are no bells or sirens to notify you when a car stops depreciating.
They just stop & slowly creep up. Same holds true when they have reached max appreciation. It just happens. Similar to the stock market, I have watched "F" cars go through some wild swings, same with American cars on a smaller scale.
As far as Alum cars? The AC ACE-Bristol was probably the 1st production car I can think of. (almost bought one once)

Spaceship? I get your point. The NSX was a production car. but with 512
being delivered to the US in 1994, it just does not seem (to me) like a regular production car.

Glad you like my photo! Knew you would!
Have read your posts & it seems obvious you do not intend to own an NSX.
That's fine, its good to get several points of view here.
Maybe we can reel this in a bit, back into a debate?
Here is something you can help me out with, check out the US production NSX numbers and tell me if you can think of another stand alone car model as rare?
I cant think of any aside from a few "F" super cars. that's why I am asking.
To get back on the right track.
(And quit staring at my photo!) LOL LOL
Here are the numbers.
http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/General/productionnumbers.htm

 

[Da Hapa]

I've heard/read that too. Nothing more than unsubstantiated claim.

I submit that the answer to this question is buried within how you define the cost of producing a car.

When one considers all of the R&D (which could then be argued as being spread across other, later cars), the highly human intensive cost to produce and the cost of the Tochigi factory (with its own set of employees, tools, etc.) I readily believe that Honda never made a profit on the NSX.

 

[Da Hapa]

An engine block from a problem-riddled-sedan is what it was. Only the headwork is what enabled it to reach mediocre power levels. Now before you go blowing your top, remember it only came with 270 ponies; it wasn't a 400 hp beast.

Sorry, but here's where I have to throw a flag for BS.

1) I'm so sick of this stupid statement that the NSX engine was nothing more than a glorified V6 from the existing Accord/Legend platform. Did they share some commonality? You bet. But you might as well say that the current 7L V8 in the C6 Z06 is nothing more than a "glorified" small block, pushrod V8 dating back to since Christ was a corporal. The original 3.0L V6 in the NSX was groundbreaking. To argue otherwise is just ignorant.
2) It "only" came with 270 ponies. Anyone want to guess what Ferrari's 308, 328 and even 348 were making? And out of how many cylinders? And how much displacment? The fact is that even today, 15 years later, 90 bhp/liter is still considered very good. Combine that with a good, tractable torque curve, and the abilty to actually run for more than 100,000 miles without expensive repairs every 10 minutes and I just can't see how anyone could say that that little engine wasn't then and contnues to be a real jewel.

And comparing the NSX to a 400 hp beast really misses the point.

Not that I put much into magazine racing but the last NSX's produced were regularly clocked in magazines at 5.0 seconds or less to 60, quarter mile times in the very low 13's and a top speed of over 170 mph. All the while getting good gas mileage and so easy to drive, even an old lady could drive one.

Yes... there are cheaper cars today (Evo's, STi', etc.) that put up similar (and in some cases better) numbers but have you looked at those cars?:biggrin: Or more seriously, have you driven the cars?

Bash Honda for not doing more to update the NSX over its impressive 15-year run. But realize how good a car the NSX was and is. Sorry, but I put more weight into what unbiased, paid professionals said about the car (esp. when it was finally killed) than what blowhards on the internet spout off about.

 

[Da Hapa]

Absolutely HORRIBLE. Shame on you Mark.

 

[BD]

Sorry, but here's where I have to throw a flag for BS.

1) I'm so sick of this stupid statement that the NSX engine was nothing more than a glorified V6 from the existing Accord/Legend platform. Did they share some commonality? You bet. But you might as well say that the current 7L V8 in the C6 Z06 is nothing more than a "glorified" small block, pushrod V8 dating back to since Christ was a corporal. The original 3.0L V6 in the NSX was groundbreaking. To argue otherwise is just ignorant.
2) It "only" came with 270 ponies. Anyone want to guess what Ferrari's 308, 328 and even 348 were making? And out of how many cylinders? And how much displacment? The fact is that even today, 15 years later, 90 bhp/liter is still considered very good. Combine that with a good, tractable torque curve, and the abilty to actually run for more than 100,000 miles without expensive repairs every 10 minutes and I just can't see how anyone could say that that little engine wasn't then and contnues to be a real jewel.

And comparing the NSX to a 400 hp beast really misses the point.

Not that I put much into magazine racing but the last NSX's produced were regularly clocked in magazines at 5.0 seconds or less to 60, quarter mile times in the very low 13's and a top speed of over 170 mph. All the while getting good gas mileage and so easy to drive, even an old lady could drive one.

Yes... there are cheaper cars today (Evo's, STi', etc.) that put up similar (and in some cases better) numbers but have you looked at those cars?:biggrin: Or more seriously, have you driven the cars?

Bash Honda for not doing more to update the NSX over its impressive 15-year run. But realize how good a car the NSX was and is. Sorry, but I put more weight into what unbiased, paid professionals said about the car (esp. when it was finally killed) than what blowhards on the internet spout off about.

You really should consider sell your NSX.

 

[Da Hapa]

You really should consider sell your NSX.

Why should I do that Vance?

 

[BD]

Why should I do that Vance?

Just a suggestion.:biggrin:

 

[Da Hapa]

Just a suggestion.:biggrin:

Based on?

 

[BD]

Based on?

Your previous HID related story with a particular prime member. By they way, in case you haven't figure out yet, that was very insulting, when you buy yur HID NOT from a local seller, and yet you expect him to fix your problem for you. When he expected fees, you ran the other way.

Nothing in life is free. Maybe not... My suggestion to you was free of charge. Probably why you kept on coming back.

VP BANKER!!! :biggrin:

 

[Da Hapa]

Your previous HID related attitude with a particular prime member. BANKER!!! :biggrin:

What in the world are you talking about?

I don't understand your post at all. Are you suggesting I should sell my NSX because I'm a banker or are you suggesting that I have had an HID attitude (whatever that may be) with another prime member named BANKER?

 

[MCM]

Relax Christian,
Only a few of us can be Hookah Bar Owner's.
:wink:

 

[BD]

What in the world are you talking about?

I don't understand your post at all. Are you suggesting I should sell my NSX because I'm a banker or are you suggesting that I have had an HID attitude (whatever that may be) with another prime member named BANKER?

Just maessing with ya, Relax bro!!!..lol

 

[Patricio]

You may want to consider average inflation into your math that would make your 30k car worth $37.5k in five years at 4% per year.
Than consider that if the new nsx if still sold at the same price plus inflation five years from discontinuation would be $85K last production plus inflation equals $102k wich would have to be a minimum price for the next nsx.
Then also there would be no reason for honda to produce a super car less expensive than the Ford GT, if ford can get $140k with people on waiting lists. Honda will deffinatly want to prove something and therefore be priced very competively with its market price competitor. if production starts 5yrs from now that ford GT is going to be around $175k with average inflation. thats probably where the NSX will be considering its competitors. JUst think at that rate a $175k Gallardo will be around $220 five years from now.
All these numbers are based on average inflation of 4%

If you notice the NSX has always sold used comparably with the current market price for a new one in other words a new nsx in 1991 was I belive aroud 50k a 91 today has only lost about 30%. There ais good chance NSXs may very well go up in value.

Anothr thing to consider that the nsx is the only car out there that demands high value with high miles comparable 91-94 ferraris sold new for twice the price of a nsx, Today sell for 10k more.. also consider a ferrari with 130kmiles and im sure the same year nsx with same miles is worth more money.

Many things support NSXs appreciating.

Yes Honda could build a cheaper version if they wanted, but that would hold no purpose and not follow hondas reputation in engineering. The purpose of exotics to companys like honda is not for profit its for brand awareness and im sure F owners will be very aware next time honda makes a New Sports car Xperimental

 

[Da Hapa]

Your previous HID related story with a particular prime member. By they way, in case you haven't figure out yet, that was very insulting, when you buy yur HID NOT from a local seller, and yet you expect him to fix your problem for you. When he expected fees, you ran the other way.

Nothing in life is free. Maybe not... My suggestion to you was free of charge. Probably why you kept on coming back.

VP BANKER!!! :biggrin:

What in the hell are you talking about?

I bought an HID kit for my NSX from WhiteNSX's. As I've posted several times on this board, I am extremely happy with that kit and my service.

As I've also posted, I've had some headlight shake since getting that kit. Steve has been extremely cool about the whole thing, including taking a look at my headlights while I was at NSXPO last year with him.

I believe that I pm's EVO575 about his headlight kit and asked him if he had shakes with his headlights. He said no. In another pm, I asked him about installing HID's in my wife's brand new LX470 and taking a look at my HID's. He offered me a very reasonable price to do the Lexus and then said he'd be happy to take a look at my NSX sometime.

He then suggested that I meet up with him sometime, maybe at a South Coast Acura meet. That's it. Nothing more and nothing less.

Now maybe you're reading something into that. Or maybe you think that there's something wrong with me buying HID's from Steve and not EVO (I think Eric is his name?)

If any of that was insluting to anyone then I'm frankly baffled. I know for a fact that WhiteNSX's is cool with me and I'm cool with him. I would hope that if EVO misunderstood my questions that he'd tell me so.

Either way, I'm puzzled as to why you're trying to suggest that I sell my NSX because you feel that a purchase with good i trader ratings that has nothing to do with you was "insulting".

And I'm still curious. Do you have a problem with my job title or my profession? Is there something about finance that you find insulting?

 

[Da Hapa]

As a follow up, if EVO is open to it, I still have the full PM exchange between him and me. With his permission, I'm very happy to post that exhange here so there can be no confusion about what really was said/typed.