Dyno trouble.

[OneRedNSX]

I think it's time to cut your losses before they multiply. Find a new tuner and start from scratch.

Sounds like your tuner is just trying to get away with tweaking a base n/a map. Doing that would be fine if you know all about what you are doing and don't make a stupid mistake by not changing or changing the wrong value... Your tuner docent sound like he fits that class...

 

[peiserg]

I think it is time for a new tuner before you do serious damage to your car.

Werd.

 

[Flexer]

Agree with these guys. Your tuner sounds like bad luck. Would you like to see a gt40R map for NSX so you can get an idea of the kind of timing and such you should be seeing?

JR

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

Agree with these guys. Your tuner sounds like bad luck. Would you like to see a gt40R map for NSX so you can get an idea of the kind of timing and such you should be seeing?

JR

Yes I would love too.
I'll pm you with my email, thank you.

And thank you guys for you feed back, so we are thinking here that the actual tune it's wrong? As opposed of a bad base timing set up or a bad knock sensor making the timing fluctuate even when it's been lock on the AEM?

There is a lack of tuners here in Toronto ...fack.

-MSR

 

[E-Nough Logic]

Number 1: About the wastegate. Wastegates do not work on pressure alone, they do need to have an ideal path of flow. Similar to an engine increase the pressure does increase the airflow through it, but an engine can flow more air at the same pressure if you increase its efficiency. That type of wastegate routing can definitely cause problems, but not always though as there are many other variables at play here. Fixing the routing might fix the boost creep but there are no guarantees. Also don't let anyone else say well my 44 wastegate held on a 40r before because every setup is different. I've literally taken the same turbo kit off one built block put it on another motor with a built block and head and saw 6-7psi of boost creep compared to the other engine's 0, and 150 more whp on the same wg spring. That manifold had ideal wastegate placement. Sometimes you just need 2 wastegates, but starting with a more ideal WG placement/routing helps.

Number 2: Timing on a gt40r map won't be very different from a gt35r map. There is the chance that it has so much timing that with 8 degrees less timing I wouldn't be surprised if it makes more power. 25 degree's just isn't in the ballpark of safe. Assuming on pump gas to start safe on this setup i would be at around 15-16 degrees in the mid range and maybe 18 up top and then go from there on the dyno.

 

[NetViper]

Yes I would love too.
I'll pm you with my email, thank you.

And thank you guys for you feed back, so we are thinking here that the actual tune it's wrong? As opposed of a bad base timing set up or a bad knock sensor making the timing fluctuate even when it's been lock on the AEM?

There is a lack of tuners here in Toronto ...fack.

-MSR

Cody isnt that far from Toronto is he?

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

Agree with these guys. Your tuner sounds like bad luck. Would you like to see a gt40R map for NSX so you can get an idea of the kind of timing and such you should be seeing?

JR

Well, eight hour each way.
And then Ill have to assume everything its ok with the car, and that is just the actual tunning that is the problem, before taking a trip.

I will run a compression test when I get home, could I do the test with the fuel pump on? If I do it with the pump off, I will have oil everywhere from the scavenge ,which need the FP signal to turn on.

-MSR

Edit: nevermind, I'll disconnect the oil line.

 

[DDozier]

Ok I will Reset timing today, what should it be set at?

Every motor is different and every motor has a timing range it likes , while most will start at the same point in the tuning process not every motor will end at the same place. If your tuner is tuning for timing the best way to know what is happening in the cumbustion chamber is to read the plugs, you will be able to verify heat range, knock, fuel and timing changes by reading the plugs. It is time consuming and considered old school by most tuners but it is the best way to know what is going on in the motor. I would order at least two complete sets of plugs for the final tuning process of any car I was to tune. You can collect as much data from as many sensors as you want but the proof is in the plugs. It is like trust but verify, you trust the data from your sensors but verify the outcome with the plugs.

I am not sure were your power is at but with timing numbers like that you need to pull all the plugs and look for specs of aluminum on the insulator, I hope there is none there but if there is it may be to late.

Not trying to scare you but when things do not add up or match others results with similar systems you need to stop and find out what is going on. I hope all is well with your motor, but for piece of mind while your checking plugs maybe a leak down and compression test would be a good idea.

Dave

 

[96cxt]

Couple of question before getting ahead of things.

Do you have a stock fuel pump?
What size injectors are you running?
Under boost is your fuel pressure staying constant or is it dropping off?

Check you spark plugs?
Are all the coils in good working order?
How old is the ignitor?

Can you post the dyno sheet? I would like to see what it looks like. Is the graph smooth?

Have you checked all the couplers on the piping?
Do you have a BOV? What kind (some require a gasket)?

Rahim

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

Couple of question before getting ahead of things.

Do you have a stock fuel pump?
What size injectors are you running?
Under boost is your fuel pressure staying constant or is it dropping off?

Check you spark plugs?
Are all the coils in good working order?
How old is the ignitor?

Can you post the dyno sheet? I would like to see what it looks like. Is the graph smooth?

Have you checked all the couplers on the piping?
Do you have a BOV? What kind (some require a gasket)?

Rahim

BOV its a Tial, an its working fine. no surge or fluctuation.

All couplers are tight and snug, I check them at the dyno.

I dont have a dyno, since its not good to us. It wont tell us much since we know timing was moving even when it was clamped, I do have an AEM log if you want to look at it, and I have the map of course.

Injectors are 750cc RC's, fuel pump is a Walbro 255 lph, high pressure.
Fuel stay extremely constant we can see that on the AFR's.

-MSR

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

Every motor is different and every motor has a timing range it likes , while most will start at the same point in the tuning process not every motor will end at the same place. If your tuner is tuning for timing the best way to know what is happening in the cumbustion chamber is to read the plugs, you will be able to verify heat range, knock, fuel and timing changes by reading the plugs. It is time consuming and considered old school by most tuners but it is the best way to know what is going on in the motor. I would order at least two complete sets of plugs for the final tuning process of any car I was to tune

. You can collect as much data from as many sensors as you want but the proof is in the plugs. It is like trust but verify, you trust the data from your sensors but verify the outcome with the plugs.

I am not sure were your power is at but with timing numbers like that you need to pull all the plugs and look for specs of aluminum on the insulator, I hope there is none there but if there is it may be to late.

Not trying to scare you but when things do not add up or match others results with similar systems you need to stop and find out what is going on. I hope all is well with your motor, but for piece of mind while your checking plugs maybe a leak down and compression test would be a good idea.

Dave

Ok back with the compression test numbers, and they are :

Rear bank 220-220-225
Front bank 220-225-218. The lst one might of been 220....

Spark plug tips, no aluminum or anything on them.
But they seem to be running extremely hot!

The tips are completaly white.
Here are couple pics.
[/ATTACH]

 

[peiserg]

i might suggest... have the boost set to zero, so there is no chance you will run positive pressure. Take car to Cody if he is within a half day's drive.

You're playing with heartache here...

 

[DDozier]

Spark plug tips, no aluminum or anything on them. But they seem to be running extremely hot!

It will be impossible to see with those pics, I use a 10x lens and lots of light to really look them over. Anyway how many pulls / miles on these plugs. The only thing I can tell for sure is you are running rich but that is what I would expect during the tuning process.

It sounds like you made it through the first tuning attemps without any real damage. If you do not want to make the drive maybe call Cody and see about flying him in maybe cheaper than you loosing a couple days on the road.

Best of luck, but take it slow and make sure you do not hurt the motor.

Dave

 

[01blacks4]

the wastegate design should be fine it all builds off pressure anyways

FALSE

and one of the dumbest statements ever

 

[whrdnsx]

Have you confirmed the actual static timing matches the AEM yet?

i believe you can lock the static timing on the AEM to check & adjust.

 

[96cxt]

The timing will be decreased if your knock sensor is picking up knock.

On the BOV did you install the rubber o ring?

What kind of exhaust system do you have?
Do you have the cayt convertors still on it?

What kind of intake is on the turbo? Have you tried dynoing with the airfilter and the intake piping going in to the turbo? I have seen restrictive piping and small filter not allowing the turbo to get enough air.

How old is the ignitor on the car? Under load the ignitor might not be strong enough to ignite the plugs.

Can you post pictures of piping and turbo under the car.

Rahim

 

[adrenaline_nsx]

FALSE

and one of the dumbest statements ever

ok.

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

The timing will be decreased if your knock sensor is picking up knock.

On the BOV did you install the rubber o ring?

What kind of exhaust system do you have?
Do you have the cayt convertors still on it?

What kind of intake is on the turbo? Have you tried dynoing with the airfilter and the intake piping going in to the turbo? I have seen restrictive piping and small filter not allowing the turbo to get enough air.

How old is the ignitor on the car? Under load the ignitor might not be strong enough to ignite the plugs.

Can you post pictures of piping and turbo under the car.

Rahim

Turbo piping and everything else is from Angus's turbo kit. Intake pipe is 4" tru. Also using the air intake that came with kit. 4"
Ignitor, I don't know how old..I will check it out.
Yes , I did used the rubber ring on the BOV flange.

Rob was actually talking about the exhaust restricting the system, even when the other guys are using it without trouble, mine was float it with oil when the scavenge pump got stuck....we will be checking that too.
It's a borla exhaust by the way.

No cats.

Here is a pic

 

[96cxt]

Turbo piping and everything else is from Angus's turbo kit. Intake pipe is 4" tru. Also using the air intake that came with kit. 4"
Ignitor, I don't know how old..I will check it out.
Yes , I did used the rubber ring on the BOV flange.

Rob was actually talking about the exhaust restricting the system, even when the other guys are using it without trouble, mine was float it with oil when the scavenge pump got stuck....we will be checking that too.
It's a borla exhaust by the way.

No cats.

Here is a pic

Interesting...

Did you get the upgraded turbo from Angus as well?

Yes, check on the ignitor and unbolt the exhaust system completely.

If there is still a problem then like others mentioned, give Cody a call and see what you can work out with him.

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

Interesting...

Did you get the upgraded turbo from Angus as well?

Yes, check on the ignitor and unbolt the exhaust system completely.

If there is still a problem then like others mentioned, give Cody a call and see what you can work out with him.

No the turbo I bought separately , there is no problem
With it at all. It holds boost no problem, no shaft play.

How do I check the ignator?

 

[na1tor]

there is clearly nothing wrong with the tuner seeing as hes the only one who tunes my nsx and its been over 2 years and 30k of thrashings making 480whp at 10 psi on that very same turbo and a stock motor! leak down just done and under 5% all across the board! Marcos tuned and built stuff people scratch their heads at like an 86psi 4g63 making over 1400 horsepower which i think is still a world record holder! and ive seen numerous cars he tunes making over 1000whp from vettes to vipers to evos! so those quick to judge should educate themselves first! manuels car will get sorted out but you gotta remember hes booking dyno sessions not diagnosing if there is mechanical problems, and im sure hell admit that me and marco both help him as much as possible in the short periods of time as we do with everybody, we did not build it for him so its hard to know exactly whats going on, but im very confident it will get sorted out and manuel will be going through rear tires in no time.

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

there is clearly nothing wrong with the tuner seeing as hes the only one who tunes my nsx and its been over 2 years and 30k of thrashings making 480whp at 10 psi on that very same turbo and a stock motor! leak down just done and under 5% all across the board! Marcos tuned and built stuff people scratch their heads at like an 86psi 4g63 making over 1400 horsepower which i think is still a world record holder! and ive seen numerous cars he tunes making over 1000whp from vettes to vipers to evos! so those quick to judge should educate themselves first! manuels car will get sorted out but you gotta remember hes booking dyno sessions not diagnosing if there is mechanical problems, and im sure hell admit that me and marco both help him as much as possible in the short periods of time as we do with everybody, we did not build it for him so its hard to know exactly whats going on, but im very confident it will get sorted out and manuel will be going through rear tires in no time.

Thanks for reassurance Rob, I will be there this week.
We will pull the exhaust and I will let you guys do your thing.

Rob is correct though, Marco hasn't done diagnostics yet, only running so far.

-MSR

 

[96cxt]

there is clearly nothing wrong with the tuner seeing as hes the only one who tunes my nsx and its been over 2 years and 30k of thrashings making 480whp at 10 psi on that very same turbo and a stock motor! leak down just done and under 5% all across the board! Marcos tuned and built stuff people scratch their heads at like an 86psi 4g63 making over 1400 horsepower which i think is still a world record holder! and ive seen numerous cars he tunes making over 1000whp from vettes to vipers to evos! so those quick to judge should educate themselves first! manuels car will get sorted out but you gotta remember hes booking dyno sessions not diagnosing if there is mechanical problems, and im sure hell admit that me and marco both help him as much as possible in the short periods of time as we do with everybody, we did not build it for him so its hard to know exactly whats going on, but im very confident it will get sorted out and manuel will be going through rear tires in no time.

Well now that we know the tuner isn't the issue (sorry).

Try and find someone with an NSX who will let you borrow the ignitor of their NSX and see if that fixes the problem. Double check to see if you plugged the coils on the plug correctly to the proper harness-plug.

Last thing to check would be the AEM EMS. Even though it might be new it doesn't hurt to plug in another on and upload the program to eliminate it from the check list.

Good luck and please let me know what the issue turns out to be. I would like to know.

Rahim

 

[E-Nough Logic]

there is clearly nothing wrong with the tuner seeing as hes the only one who tunes my nsx and its been over 2 years and 30k of thrashings making 480whp at 10 psi on that very same turbo and a stock motor! leak down just done and under 5% all across the board! Marcos tuned and built stuff people scratch their heads at like an 86psi 4g63 making over 1400 horsepower which i think is still a world record holder! and ive seen numerous cars he tunes making over 1000whp from vettes to vipers to evos! so those quick to judge should educate themselves first! manuels car will get sorted out but you gotta remember hes booking dyno sessions not diagnosing if there is mechanical problems, and im sure hell admit that me and marco both help him as much as possible in the short periods of time as we do with everybody, we did not build it for him so its hard to know exactly whats going on, but im very confident it will get sorted out and manuel will be going through rear tires in no time.

I don't care if he built and tuned a chariot for God. 30 degrees of timing at 10psi is just not healthy.

Also I'm sure the guys over at AEM are somewhat educated in these manners and they seem to agree with me. They noted significant discrepancies in the tune. They saw timing decreasing with RPM's which is counter intuitive, and N/A type timing values at full boost. The evidence disagrees with you, so until something else comes to light, I'm going to stick with my uneducated opinion.

 

[OneRedNSX]

there is clearly nothing wrong with the tuner...

Funny... since there clearly IS something wrong with the tune...

...Marcos tuned and built stuff people scratch their heads at...

I'll bet... we are all doing that right now actually.

so those quick to judge should educate themselves first!...

All we can do is look at the facts we are presented with... and so far we don't like them.



Bottom line is are you willing to bet this guy's engine?... Much easier when your wallet isn't the one riding on his abilities... :wink: