Engine died

[Thunder]

I understand your concern, if Honda engineers decided that rubber was needed of course there must be a reason....HOWEVER...I have doubts that they thought about the risk to hit the Timing Belt in case of failure.
If idea was to just to absorb the A/C shocks they would bound it in the AC compressor instead, I agree to use it as a crankshaft damper to reduce its harmonic twisting angle..
Does the S2000 engine also have this rubber? How long would last the engine without it?
A F1 engine does not use a HB at all, because they have no AC compressor or belt driven alternator in the first place:biggrin:....but of course they are designed to last just a couple of hours or so....

The crankshaft is put in rotation via the rods, themselves pushed by pistons etc… etc… to transform this translatory movement into rotation. Each explosion shakes all the moving element violently . These strong pushes are controlled by the driving wheel and its moment of inertia. This driving wheel is sometimes reduced, which allows rises in modes then faster, by the reduction of this moment of inertia, but that the wheel made a training course at Weight-watchers :biggrin: or that it is stock, it is obvious that the crankshaft receives enormous efforts, NSX = + 8000 rpm, vibrations, and shocks in any kinds, which will generate torsions and inflections not always desirable for a great longevity.
All these vibrations are stopped on a side by the driving wheel, which boxes all and restores a median value of rotation, but side pulley, it is free, and that panics. For you to represent it, imagine a firmly fixed metal stem on a side, free of the other. Type above. She will be traversed important vibrations, and which will make to and from (frequencies of resonance, harmonic and Co). With your crankshaft, it is exactly the same thing, the rotation of this one not preventing of anything traverses it harmonics.
A crankshaft which vibrates, will damage the bearings quickly, as well as the stages of the block, will then decrease the oil pressure, and all the cascade of problems which will result from this $$$. When a preparation seriously is made, it is understood, within sight of the final cost, that some seek to make it last. So now, your engine is intended for Drag or in F1, longevity is not paramount. :smile:

 

[Hugabuga]

This is getting interesting Thunder :biggrin:
Ok, so we all agree, there must be a vibration damper in this side of the crankshaft, but I do not agree with the solution they found due to its risk of failure!
What other material instead of rubber would you suggest then?
At least if it was bounded on the External side of the HB it won't hit the TB in case of failure...

 

[A_J]

The HB is not just rubber, there is a steel ring attached to the inside of the rubber part aswell, that's what makes it eat thru the TB cover so fast.
If you look on the picture of my old one here you see it has come loose where it attaches to the pulley, this looks to me to be the weakest point of it. As you see, the steeel ring attached to it is also balanced, so Honda has put some effort into this part of the car. Why they did not attach the "balancing" part of it on the outside I dont understand.

But Titaniumdave here on prime makes some great shield's to prevent it from doing any damage should it come loose, I wish I had bought one sooner :redface:

Does anyone have any good tip's on how to prevent the engine from turning while torquing the main bolt on the crankshaft?

 

[Hugabuga]

I just found this:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132194

After reading and learning all this, I really think I should replace mine before it fails!

 

[4AU4LIFE]

Just an update: I installed my new harmonic balancer this week. The old one was in perfect condition after 152K miles, but now I have one less thing to worry about.

Here are my thoughts on this line of thinking.
Granted your old part has quite a few miles on it, if it was in perfect condition, as you say, what makes you think the new one will last longer or is better than your old one? I mean, just because you just bought it brand new by no means indicates that part itself is brand new. Just think of how many of that particular part Acura produces currently. I would say probably not very many. Since most if not all of the parts on our engines are exclusive to our cars, that product probably hasn't been requested very many times in the recent past.
So, if the 'brand new' part that you just bought was actually produced a few years back, is that a promise that it won't go bad in the same time frame that your old one would've? If the new one goes bad and takes the engine with it, do you think Acura is going to buy you an engine? Nope.
So, ultimately, it is no promise that the new part will last longer than your old one but know you just think that it will......and hopefully that will be true.
BTW, is it really an easy job? Probably have to have a serious breaker bar to take off the crank bolt holding it on though.

 

[A_J]

BTW, is it really an easy job? Probably have to have a serious breaker bar to take off the crank bolt holding it on though.

Getting it off isn't too bad if you have an air tool to help you, mind you, I had to buy the strongest they had in my local tool store. The spec claimed it should be able to produce 744 NM of torque and it had to "work" for a while before the bolt came off.
According to the manual, the bolt should be tightened to 250 NM, so if anyone have a good tip on how to keep the engine from rotating while tightening the bolt it would be really appreciated :smile:

 

[captngaryr]

Getting it off isn't too bad if you have an air tool to help you, mind you, I had to buy the strongest they had in my local tool store. The spec claimed it should be able to produce 744 NM of torque and it had to "work" for a while before the bolt came off.
According to the manual, the bolt should be tightened to 250 NM, so if anyone have a good tip on how to keep the engine from rotating while tightening the bolt it would be really appreciated :smile:

Why not put it in top gear and have someone stand on the brake.

Question: Is the harmonic balancer problem associated with earlier models, or should I be concerned with an '03 model?

Gary

 

[ftuhy]

There's a tool for removing the bolt on the crankshaft pulley / harmonic balancer. Look at any thread on timing belt /water pump and you'll find it. The Honda version is approx $120 (in 2007), but you can find lower cost versions. Look at the Gary Kentosh DIY on TB/WP for hints on how to stabilize the socket wrench when removing this high-torque bolt. Also, only use 6 point sockets; 12 point ones can round the bolt head. 1/2" drive extensions were too weak, I had to go to 3/4" drive when doing my TB/WP job.

Note that automatic and manual transmissions require a different size tool. For a manual trans, the Honda tool numbers (its a 2-piece device) are 07JAB-001020A and 07NAB-001030A. The tool is essentially a "45 mm nut on a stick" that fits into the recess in the pulley. You put the tool in place and the stick end rests on the floor, keeping the pulley from turning. You then put a socket through the center of the nut to access the bolt.

When I did my TB, it took over 250 ft-lb of torque to break the bolt loose. When it broke loose, it made a loud cracking noise that sounded like something broke. Fortunately, I had been forewarned by others about that.

Tightening torque is 181 ft-lb / 250NM, so I also had to buy a 3/4" drive torque wrench for the job. Make sure to lubricate the threads and bolt head as shown on page 6-12 of the manual.

 

[Thunder]

There's a tool for removing the bolt on the crankshaft pulley / harmonic balancer



Tool HEX 45 mm (N°: 07JAB-0010300) for 5 manual speed

http://daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/index_browse_part.cfm?focus=2013

 

[drew]

The harmonic balancer (damper) inner socket size came in two sizes, depending on "early" or "late". Despite my manual transmission, I had to buy one size to remove it from my 1991 and the larger size to replace it with a new damper.

The tools are inexpensive on amazon (make sure you get the right size for your damper, you have to measure it!).
http://www.amazon.com/Honda-Harmoni..._2?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1277699667&sr=8-2

If you do not wish to buy a tool (or cannot wait), you can get by with a screwdriver in the flywheel. It is ghetto, but it will work...the screwdriver will fold before the teeth break.

Drew

 

[R13]

There's a tool for removing the bolt on the crankshaft pulley / harmonic balancer



Tool HEX 45 mm (N°: 07JAB-0010300) for 5 manual speed

http://daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/index_browse_part.cfm?focus=2013

You can also pick up just the socket end from a dealership or vendor and then stick a jack handle on the end of it and place some wood etc. strategically to keep from bending suspension or subframe pieces.

This is what I did to both remove and re-torque the crank bolt. I did not have a powerfull-enough air tool.

 

[ChopsJazz]

Here are my thoughts on this line of thinking.
Granted your old part has quite a few miles on it, if it was in perfect condition, as you say, what makes you think the new one will last longer or is better than your old one? I mean, just because you just bought it brand new by no means indicates that part itself is brand new. Just think of how many of that particular part Acura produces currently. I would say probably not very many. Since most if not all of the parts on our engines are exclusive to our cars, that product probably hasn't been requested very many times in the recent past.
So, if the 'brand new' part that you just bought was actually produced a few years back, is that a promise that it won't go bad in the same time frame that your old one would've? If the new one goes bad and takes the engine with it, do you think Acura is going to buy you an engine? Nope.
So, ultimately, it is no promise that the new part will last longer than your old one but know you just think that it will......and hopefully that will be true.
BTW, is it really an easy job? Probably have to have a serious breaker bar to take off the crank bolt holding it on though.

This argument is reminiscent of the old timing belt discussion from a while back. The fact is that the part I just installed is new and hasn't been subjected to any of the wear and tear that a 152K mile part has been subjected to over it's 19-year lifespan. That fact alone gives me reason to believe it will last longer than the 152K mile unit that it replaced.

To answer you question about having Acura fix the engine if the new part is defective? You bet you a$$ I would pursue that resolution if that situation arose. I sued Range Rover for just such a situation and got a new engine and all associated costs refunded as well. Towing, shipping, rentals, new engine: Everything.

 

[A_J]

Anyone got a spare set of heads for sale? Or a whole engine maybe?

Cranked it today with a compression tester in, no comp whatsoever in any of the aft cylinders :frown:

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Anyone got a spare set of heads for sale? Or a whole engine maybe?

Cranked it today with a compression tester in, no comp whatsoever in any of the aft cylinders :frown:

I suspect you have 12 bent valves, since the Fore cylinders are probably the same. No need for new heads or whole engine. The valves are so fragile the pistons will be fine, just do a valve job w/12 new valves and you will be back running again, and you should get the pulley shield available to protect against this recurring again.

HTH,
LarryB

 

[A_J]

I suspect you have 12 bent valves, since the Fore cylinders are probably the same. No need for new heads or whole engine. The valves are so fragile the pistons will be fine, just do a valve job w/12 new valves and you will be back running again, and you should get the pulley shield available to protect against this recurring again.

HTH,
LarryB

Thanks for the input Larry. Already got a shield from titaniumdave.
I thought I'd get the valves sciencofspeed offers, as my local Honda dealer wanted 2,9k US$ for a full set of valves.

 

[A_J]

Got the engine out today, as far as I could see thru the ports it's only the exhaust valves that are bent.

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

I'm sorry to hear about your pulley failing.

If there is anything we can do to help, please let me know. I believe we have a set of used factory exhaust valves available if you need them.

I hope you do not mind if we use some of your photos to share online with customers.

Unfortunately, this is a part that I consider a "wear" item due to the rubber bushing. However, it isn't considered a wear item by the factory, and it isn't on any service interval sheet - so owners don't really know it's something they should change around the time the timing belts are changed.

Cheers,
-- Chris

 

[goldNSX]

Sorry to hear your misfortune.
It's time to clear some things up. According to page 6-21 you apply oil to the threads of the bolt but NOT on the head of it. Braking it loose and fixing the flywheel instead of having the right tool is rubish. Your crankshaft and it's bearings could not like it. If you change the crankshaft or the pulley the torqueing sequence goes like this: 280 Nm - 0 Nm - 250 Nm.

Question: the early version of the pulley shield was a lightweigt version. The latest version is a heavyduty version (no holes). What's the reason for it. I know the later one is safer but have there been any failures of the lightweight version?

 

[A_J]

Sorry to hear your misfortune.
It's time to clear some things up. According to page 6-21 you apply oil to the threads of the bolt but NOT on the head of it. Braking it loose and fixing the flywheel instead of having the right tool is rubish. Your crankshaft and it's bearings could not like it. If you change the crankshaft or the pulley the torqueing sequence goes like this: 280 Nm - 0 Nm - 250 Nm.

Question: the early version of the pulley shield was a lightweigt version. The latest version is a heavyduty version (no holes). What's the reason for it. I know the later one is safer but have there been any failures of the lightweight version?

You are correct about the oil on the threads and not the head. But as far as I could read about the torque, you are only required to do the 280-0-250 if the crankshaft is new, not the pulley.

I got the the tool machined at work, so I got it torqued, but for no use as I have to remove it again to get the TB off again to remove the head's.

Dont know if there's been any failures to the lightweight one, but the solid one does not really weigh much, and it cost less. :tongue:

 

[A_J]

Here's the result:

 

[A_J]

Guess I got lucky in the end...

Picked up a spare engine today, with oem clutch and a gearbox that needs new bearings, all for 10k NoK, or apx. 1800US$

 

[A_J]

Finally got everything in the car and fired up the new engine today. Great feeling to hear the NSX alive again, now the spring cant come soon enough.

One question tho, in the old engine front cylinder bank, I measured 175 to 185 p.s.i. The new engine measures 228 to 233 p.s.i. What would you guys say is normal for a 28k miles engine?

 

[pgilliam1]

Finally got everything in the car and fired up the new engine today. Great feeling to hear the NSX alive again, now the spring cant come soon enough.

One question tho, in the old engine front cylinder bank, I measured 175 to 185 p.s.i. The new engine measures 228 to 233 p.s.i. What would you guys say is normal for a 28k miles engine?

199 psi nominal, 142 psi minimum, and 28 psi variation maximum betwen cylinders.

Service manuals are here.

Happy Motoring!


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[TitaniumVtec]

Finally got everything in the car and fired up the new engine today. Great feeling to hear the NSX alive again, now the spring cant come soon enough.

One question tho, in the old engine front cylinder bank, I measured 175 to 185 p.s.i. The new engine measures 228 to 233 p.s.i. What would you guys say is normal for a 28k miles engine?

My engine has 108k miles on it and my last compression test was 230 across the board. Your motor is healthy imo. Congrats!

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Finally got everything in the car and fired up the new engine today. Great feeling to hear the NSX alive again, now the spring cant come soon enough.

One question tho, in the old engine front cylinder bank, I measured 175 to 185 p.s.i. The new engine measures 228 to 233 p.s.i. What would you guys say is normal for a 28k miles engine?

Sounds like maybe the first test had the throttle plate closed, second test it was open. Assuming that are both stock. NSX engines are pretty tough and your first trest showed fairly even compression. Was it the same gauge?

Regards,
LarryB