I just got back from my first track event run on Monday at Shannonville in Bellville and all I can say is if you've not tried this, get thee to a track with much haste and little dispatch. Or faster. The difference between driving on a track or on the street/highway is virtually night and day and really has to be experienced to be truly understood. Before Monday, I'd assumed the previous statement was something of an overstatement, I mean...how different could it be? Turns out it's worlds apart. And not just for the obvious reasons: no cops, hockey moms(or soccer moms, take yer pick...) in mini-vans doin' the Cel-Phone Shuffle outta every side-street, etc., but in many other ways too. While Shannonville is not a long track at just over 4 kms, but it was very technical with double-apex turns, esses, short straights, and turns that come up uber-fast! I'd like to report that I blazed the track and was fast and smooth and the best driver there, but that would be somewhat...idealized. On the approach to the hairpin that exits onto the backstraight, I manged four slapping fish-tails and caught it in time for the turn...ugh...AND spun the car going WAYYYY too hot into a turn! BUT...I was laughing all the way. By the end of the day, I had begun to figure out the track with the help of a few guys who'd 'been around' and they pointed out the braking zones, where to aim the car, etc. and were instumental in maximizing my learning and enjoyment while eliminating any negatives. No damage, no problems, just a much better appreciation for what both the NSX and I are capable of. I'd like to thank Dennis, the proud owner of a very nice white S2000, who took the time out of his day to tell me not to engage the parking brake after a run, and to cool the car down by various methods, things I didn't know and am glad were pointed out to me. (Dennis, hope you see this!) In fact everyone there, and there was a good tun-out, was great to be around, helpful, courteous, smart on the track (there were no 'incidents') and very enthusiastic about the event. My brother Dave talked me into this and I approached this with a degree of trepidation. 'What if I screw up?", 'What if I bin my beautiful car?', and the worst of all...'What if I suck as a driver?'. Well as I stated above, the racing world isn't in rapt anticipation of my imminent arrival, and will likely carry on fine without me, but I think I learned as much on my laps as I've ever learned anywhere else and can honestly say this is the most fun you'll have with your pants on. I also found that while the intial learning curve and unfamiliarity with the track, as well as the ample power supply, courtesy of Honda, will produce some truly ugly first laps, the brilliance of the NSX is finally revealed in this environment, seeming to help you improve and expand your limitations, inspiring confidence, which translates into faster, better laps. This was a fantastic experience that I would recommend to anyone, in any car at any skill level (percieved or otherwise...). One guy brought his Toyota Corrolla plus four-door. He probably learned more than I did as corners tend to come up a bit slower for him...more time to think. Anyway if you can, do it!
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First track day ever!
- Thread starter NoSeX4U
- Start date
Welcome to the "Dark Side"...
LOL, Just kidding.. glad to hear that you had a blast at your first track event. It just gets better and better, quite addictive.
Safe driving,
Ken
LOL, Just kidding.. glad to hear that you had a blast at your first track event. It just gets better and better, quite addictive.
Safe driving,
Ken
Welcome to the club.
As Ken says, it just gets better. I drive at 2 or three events/month and he's right.
I'm glad you enjoyed.
Mark
As Ken says, it just gets better. I drive at 2 or three events/month and he's right.
I'm glad you enjoyed.
Mark
Thanks for the great summary - I'll admit, I've been "scared" to do a track event for fear that I'll make a complete ass of myself, since I have no skills to speak of. The thought of screwing up my car and possibly other people's property intimidates the hell out of me. I know everyone starts somewhere, but I think I'd be shaking like a leaf and sweating like Patrick Ewing before a tip-off on my first lap.
On a side note, did you do anything special to your car to prepare it for the track? I am not mechanical at all, so that's another reason I'm hesitant to go - I don't know jack about prepping and fixing, and I'm sure I'd need to do something to get ready, right?
Thanks again!
On a side note, did you do anything special to your car to prepare it for the track? I am not mechanical at all, so that's another reason I'm hesitant to go - I don't know jack about prepping and fixing, and I'm sure I'd need to do something to get ready, right?
Thanks again!
The FAQ had a very good write up for the preparation on track.
Now, if you ask your fellows around your local area, they will point you at some of the club or high performance driving school. Some of them even affliate with the track. I'll say if you don't know much about high performance driving, ie: Racing line, braking point, apex, or even heel & toe downshift... Most of these schools will cover it from the basic.
You don't need to worry about you getting too excited... since most instructors would not push you especially you are there first time, and with all the excercises of braking and turnings etc, you will gradually bring yourself up to speed, and built confident.
There are a lot of people thinking that they don't need to know about the basics since "I've been driving for 8 - 10 yrs, I know how to drive my car" and then being completely idiot and ended up damaging their cars. A lot of people learning it the hard way, which they damaging from little air dam to even totaling the car. Going to the school with instructors usually cost a little more but they are most likely experienced enough to correct you before you make any serious mistake.
another common mistake is that people bring a lot of ego and some even thought he had to race someone to prove that he got skills (or his car is better than such such), HPDE is not for that but a self improvement and let everyone enjoying the day. As long as he let the faster drivers by, he may go as fast or slow as he's comfortable with...
Now, if you ask your fellows around your local area, they will point you at some of the club or high performance driving school. Some of them even affliate with the track. I'll say if you don't know much about high performance driving, ie: Racing line, braking point, apex, or even heel & toe downshift... Most of these schools will cover it from the basic.
You don't need to worry about you getting too excited... since most instructors would not push you especially you are there first time, and with all the excercises of braking and turnings etc, you will gradually bring yourself up to speed, and built confident.
There are a lot of people thinking that they don't need to know about the basics since "I've been driving for 8 - 10 yrs, I know how to drive my car" and then being completely idiot and ended up damaging their cars. A lot of people learning it the hard way, which they damaging from little air dam to even totaling the car. Going to the school with instructors usually cost a little more but they are most likely experienced enough to correct you before you make any serious mistake.
another common mistake is that people bring a lot of ego and some even thought he had to race someone to prove that he got skills (or his car is better than such such), HPDE is not for that but a self improvement and let everyone enjoying the day. As long as he let the faster drivers by, he may go as fast or slow as he's comfortable with...
LeftLane said:
Hahaha, Todd, this reminds me of Austin looking in my rear view and seeing you swing out really wide on that turn!!
Hey, at least you admit it! I'm still in denial!
Take care,
- Z
Welcome to the diease to which there is no cure!
Great post NoSeX4U. I did my first track event in early June too. It was a 2-day BMWCCA school and, I have to say, it was just fantastic. I was in the novice run group and therefore had an instructor in the car with me at all times when lapping the road course. I would be wary of doing a track event without an expert beside me until I got the hang of the basics. Going in, I was really worried that one mistake would equal disaster. Rather, it's progressive screwing up.... if you do everything perfect, you're fast (and on the $ss of the car in front of you!). Screw up a little, and you get sloppy...missed apexes, scrubbing off speed, etc. (and that Boxster S is suddenly on your butt). Keep screwing up or start reacting badly, and you risk placing wheels off the pavement. Screw up that recovery (ie do the wrong thing for that particular part of the track) and you end up backwards in the swamp. But overall, it is much more forgiving that I thought it would be.
I would HIGHLY recommend the BMWCCA school to anyone. They paired each of us up with someone who knows that car inside-out (and usually owns one too). The head instructor I'm told has an NSX too.
The NSX is such a competent car that I believe it is covering for a lot of my indiscretions, such as being too abrupt with the clutch or the throttle in a turn. I suspect on a less competent car, I would get slapped for a lot of the things I was doing wrong.
One question on brakes tho..... I had stock pads and fresh Valvoline Synpower DOT4 brake fluid. Actually I did have some braking problems, especially on the 2nd day. Calgary's Race City is a 2.2 mile course, by the end of the front straight a stock NSX is capable of hitting 200 km/h = 125 mph. It leads into a fast left sweeper that I was pretty comfortable taking about 105 km/h = 65 mph. Obviously this means heavy braking approaching the turn-in point... and my brakes shuddered with a high-frequency vibration. I've read many posts on Prime and whitepapers on StopTech's site that talk about cementite inclusions etc.... but then also read a post on Prime from an experience trackgoer who said that one track they drove had the NSX braking from 130 to 65 mph and that this amount of braking would come dangerously close to boiling Motul 600 (DBP = 580F). Is it possible I was actually verging on boiling the fluid? There are only 2 zones of hard braking on the course and I'd think the fluid would have lots of time to cool between applications. The pad never sank to the floor or anything but it just didn't feel right. Any thoughts?
But overall, it is much more forgiving that I thought it would be.I would HIGHLY recommend the BMWCCA school to anyone. They paired each of us up with someone who knows that car inside-out (and usually owns one too). The head instructor I'm told has an NSX too.
The NSX is such a competent car that I believe it is covering for a lot of my indiscretions, such as being too abrupt with the clutch or the throttle in a turn. I suspect on a less competent car, I would get slapped for a lot of the things I was doing wrong.
One question on brakes tho..... I had stock pads and fresh Valvoline Synpower DOT4 brake fluid. Actually I did have some braking problems, especially on the 2nd day. Calgary's Race City is a 2.2 mile course, by the end of the front straight a stock NSX is capable of hitting 200 km/h = 125 mph. It leads into a fast left sweeper that I was pretty comfortable taking about 105 km/h = 65 mph. Obviously this means heavy braking approaching the turn-in point... and my brakes shuddered with a high-frequency vibration. I've read many posts on Prime and whitepapers on StopTech's site that talk about cementite inclusions etc.... but then also read a post on Prime from an experience trackgoer who said that one track they drove had the NSX braking from 130 to 65 mph and that this amount of braking would come dangerously close to boiling Motul 600 (DBP = 580F). Is it possible I was actually verging on boiling the fluid? There are only 2 zones of hard braking on the course and I'd think the fluid would have lots of time to cool between applications. The pad never sank to the floor or anything but it just didn't feel right. Any thoughts?
I don't think I ever boiled my fluid, but my left rear brake was smoking a bit at the end. Tuesday I'd already scheduled (...shceduled???) maintainence and my brakes were fine, though they got a good cleaning. Other than that and the fact I'd like to find a grippier tire than a Dunlop 9000 (any thoughts) that's still practicable for the street where it rains sometimes, the NSX was in exactly the same shape going home as when I went to the track. I did employ elements of the FAQ on track prep and would re-iterate the need to cool the car down after a run by leaving the engine on for a bit (this allows the cars' cooling system to work) and not engaging your E-brake (apparently they can stick when the brakes are really hot...better safe than sorry). See how much I learned? And while this was an open track, I'd agree that a dedicated instructor beside me would have smoothed my progress and would have provided a measure of confidence and restraint....but then I wouldn't be able to relate the spins and fish-tails! Once you spin it at speed, the experience loses some of it's more frightening aspects. LeftLane, find a track with lots of run-off space. Shannonville is an excellent track for beginners such as myself as there's virtually nothing you can hit but flat grass. This allowed me to concentrate on my driving more and honestly, you're not likely to go fast enough to be that deep in trouble until you'll allow yourself to push it, and by then you'll have the hang of it. Not to mention, contrary to what many may think would be hair-raising, waiting to go out for the first time, the apprehension and excitement kinda balance each other out. And after the first lap, regardless of how well or not you do, there's a ridiculous grin on your face that others might find weird if they didn't have the exact same grin and the knowledge of what engendered it! I'm still flashing the grin when I remember a paticularily good or bad moment. And the spin was fun. That what don't kill us, do make us stronger (in the hibby-dibby). Must be tired! 'K. 'Nuf said!
NoSeX4U said:
Try the Bridgestone Potenza SO-3, they have pretty high ratings in regards to both grip in the dry as well as in the wet, they tend to last quite a long time too.
Actually you end up warping the rotor.
Ken
PS There are basic excercises that you can practice on the sreet that will help you at the track, things like rev matching and heel and toe downshifting comes to mind.
NSX FoYoAss said:Hahaha, Todd, this reminds me of Austin looking in my rear view and seeing you swing out really wide on that turn!!
Hey, at least you admit it! I'm still in denial!
Take care,
- Z
You mean, you saw me swing out really wide on EVERY turn!!!!! I suck!
No. I mean, it's possible, but unlikely - and the key point is, the vibration has nothing to do with the possibility of boiling the fluid.
The vibration (with which I've had all too much experience) is the result of uneven deposits of pad material on the surface of the rotor (although, as it worsens, it's possible to also create actual warping of the rotor, but it doesn't start out that way). The Stoptech white paper is a very good analysis of this. I agree with what it says about the chain of events that creates this problem. Where I don't agree is that they blame it entirely on lack of bedding of the brake pads. While bedding is important, and can reduce the chances of this happening, IMO that is not the only cause or the only solution; I believe there are other contributing factors as well. The root cause is not just lack of bedding, but the management of the extreme heat that track driving creates. Cooling ducts can help. Better ventilated rotors (e.g. Stoptech's) can help. Two-piece rotors can help. Bigger rotors can help. Using a ScotchBrite pad on the rotors and then re-bedding the pads can help. Some brake pads may be more susceptible to this than others. Addressing some of these contributing factors can reduce the chances of encountering the shudder. But proper bedding is certainly important.
FWIW, I used to encounter this all the time, and was replacing brake rotors every 3-4 events. Now, I have cooling ducts, and stock-size Stoptech two-piece rotors, and bed my pads religiously; I no longer have much difficulty with shudder, although I am replacing brake rotors due to cracking, now every 8-12 events though.
Oh, one more point - in my experience, the shudder arises entirely from the front rotors. The rears are not a factor at all. And, while not using the parking brake is good advice, the parking brake can only warp the rear rotors, not the front ones - so any use of the parking brake is unlikely to have anything to do with the shudder problems you encountered.
Stock-sized wheels (15"/16", 16"/17", or 17"/17") - I strongly recommend the OEM tires (Yokohama A022H or Bridgestone RE010 for the first two, Bridgestone RE040 for the 17"/17"). They are great on the street and great on the track. They're actually very good in rain most of the time, and only get dicey when they get low on tread (but can be a handful in rain at that point).NoSeX4U said:
Aftermarket sized wheels (e.g. 17"/18" or other) - I recommend using one of the best summer performance tires on the market, such as the Bridgestone Potenza S-03 (in particular), Goodyear F1 GS-D3, or Michelin Pilot Sport PS2. All of these are significantly better than the SP9000; even though it's the top of Dunlop's line, and does great in the rain and lasts a long time, it's not very grippy on dry pavement.
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nsxtasy said:
Hi Ken!
What's bedding pads and rotors?
Is it grinding to have uniform surface, doing a procedure to prepare surfaces to insure max grip???
No. "Bedding" is the process of using the brakes on the car immediately after the pads and/or rotors are replaced. There is no grinding from the use of external tools.effer said:
The procedure consists of a series of moderate stops, typically separated by perhaps 1/3 mile, followed by a series of severe stops (severe meaning HARD braking, hard enough to get the pads to heat up and outgas), with the same separation, followed by letting the brakes cool down for several hours or preferably overnight.
For a long time, when I heard of bedding, I thought it referred to a procedure whose purpose was simply to get the two surfaces to mate, in order to match any irregularities in flatness between the pads and the rotors. In fact, the purpose of the bedding procedure is to leave a thin, uniform layer of pad deposits on the surface of the rotor.
This is all described in more detail in the Stoptech white paper (see link above).
Hey NoSeX4U
I bet you still have that grin on your face ...
What are you doing July 31 or on Sept 10-12th? Interested in more track events? ... I've cought the bug and wouldn't mind going to the events with another NSX.
Glad you had fun.
I bet you still have that grin on your face ...
What are you doing July 31 or on Sept 10-12th? Interested in more track events? ... I've cought the bug and wouldn't mind going to the events with another NSX.
Glad you had fun.
September dates are better, I'm in Grand Bend on the 31st. I'd enjoy getting one more day in with the NSX and I'm already enrolled in the Bridgestone 2-day F2000 school at Mosport in August. Open-Wheelers!!! BWUHahahahahaha!!!! (this is gettin' outta hand!) Is something already set up fpr sept.? Please let me know! And thanks! And as a post-script to all this, I find I like my car even more now than before! Thanks all for the tire recommendations. Ken, between the A22's and RE010's (I've read the FAQS) what's your call? I don't put alot of mileage (kilometreage???) on my car so wear is not the major factor. Which is the better choice for a guy who doesn't hide his car from the rain (as if we've had a choice here in Ontario....it's raining AGAIN right now...) and will find his way to 2-4 track days in a season. I like grip at least as much as any sane person so if you had to choose either the A22s or RE010s, which would it be?
The A022H. (But the RE010 is slightly less expensive.)NoSeX4U said:
And if you really like track events in the NSX (you do) and you live in the Northeast (you do), then for Pete's sake, hold the dates October 8-12! That's when NSXPO 2004 will take place. It's just a few hours away from you this year, at Watkins Glen. Imagine a track event where all the student groups consist of NSXs only - 20-30 NSXs going around the track at a time! The track event is Monday-Tuesday, and there will be lots of other fun activities over the weekend. Hope to see you there.
Looking forward to it. The 'Glen looks great. I've of course seen racing there on T.V. but is there a site or even video game thar accurately shows the track? I surmise that having a forknowledge of the track would eliminate a small portion of the learning curve by providing at least a reference to what the track looks like, where the turns are etc. and, at least according to Jaques Villeneauve, at lot can be gained from a good videogame's depiction of the track. It's no substitute for the real thing but if anyone knows a title on any of the 3 consoles that has Watkin's Glenn please let me know. And thanks fore the tire info, I've got OEM '94 16/17's so I'll go with the A22's.
I will be filming at the Glen next week and will post a couple of hot-laps when I return home.
Here is a video of a hot lap chasing the infamous Bumblee NSX around the Glen this past May:
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?...invite&cmp=EMC-IS_other&creative=album-invite
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?...invite&cmp=EMC-IS_other&creative=album-invite
NoSeX4u: Great writeup! Did you go with a particular driving school over at Shannonville? I'd really like to take my first run at Shannonville as well. A friend of mine keeps sending me links to various driving courses for beginners, but most of them are at the Mosport driver development track, which I'm told is the gokart track, and not all that wide etc. As for the regular Mosport track, there's turn 2 and all the walls... I think I'd prefer the runoffs at Shannonville until I'm a little more confident on the track.
In our case it was an open track event, no instructors, just figure it out as you go. We were fortunate to have a few Shannonville veterans in the group and a good level-headed crowd over-all but I know I would have benefitted from a course and am enrolled in Mosport's Bridgestone racing school driving F2000's in August. I'll let you know if another one comes up!
While that is okay for experienced drivers, I would STRONGLY recommend that beginners not participate in such events. You will learn bad habits that will be much more difficult to un-learn. You're better off signing up for track events in which an instructor sits in your passenger seat and tells you how to do things the proper way.NoSeX4U said:
There are plenty of such events around, including those held by (among others) BMW CCA and, in Canada, by BMW CC.
I agree whole-heartedly. I just couldn't pass up this opportunity. Besides, my brother's shy and needed someone to hold his hand...
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