Frequency of oil starvation

[Batoutahell]

I'm looking forward to my first DE with the nsx in about 2 weeks. Recently as I read a thread concerning baffled oil pan designs, I'm finding that some nsx owners have lunched their motors due to oil starvation on the track. I'm starting to wonder how worried I should be tracking my car in a few weeks.

I already have a SOS baffled oil pan in the mail, but I'm wondering if I need an accusump as well. I don't plan on setting any speed records, as this is my first rwd car that I've taken to the track. On the other hand, I know this track very well and it might not take me long to pick up some decent speed. It has a 10-second left-hand banked carousel that makes me wonder if the baffled pan is enough.

I had a baffled oil pan on my integra type-r, and I felt that was enough insurance against oil starvation. Am I being paranoid about the nsx's oil pickup design issues, or would I be tempting fate not to get an accusump installed in addition to the baffled oil pan?

 

[matteni]

I guess it depends. If you are using Hoosiers and a highly modified suspension and you run around a banked oval and go 100% at redline all the way around and you don't check your oil religiously between sessions - then yes - accusump is the way to go.

If you are not seeing a lot of these conditions during DE then IMO even the baffled oil pay is overkill. If I was going to do anything I would probably upgrade the oil pump gears as it was reported by the woodwork that these can fail under high RPMs and track stress - but that is just me.

Pans are cheap enough insurance but unless you go racing I think you are fine without it and I suspect they don't really offer much insurance in the end. Watch those guys in Best Motoring go around the track in bone stock NSXs and you will see these cars do just fine at the track.

 

[Gansan]

When I first took my NSX out to the track, I did what I had always done in my Integra Type R race car and overfilled the oil by about half a quart, thinking this would make it harder to get starvation in corners. I was then alarmed when my oil pressure kept dropping on long straights--but not corners. It seemed that sustained high RPM (such as a 4th gear straight) would make the pressure gauge drop, more than could be explained by VTEC. My engine is 100% stock.

The next time I went out, I tried following the advice of some people and HyperREV and filled my oil to exactly the top hole and not above that. The idea is that the oil level is actually pretty close to the spinning crank, and just a little overfilled, and you get frothing/aeration from the crank hitting the oil. Amazingly, my oil pressure stopped dropping dramatically on the straights! So I would suggest filling the oil to exactly the top hole and not a bit more. The whole thing makes me appreciate how the Integra's B18C5 has an oil breather tank to get rid of bubbles.

The other band-aids such as baffled oil pan and accusump are great to have, but I wouldn't let that keep you from trying your first track event.

 

[Batoutahell]

Well, for whatever it's worth I'll have the baffled oil pan installed in time for the event. I'll be on azenis, not r-comp's and koni/gc suspension.

Thanks for the advice, I'll keep the oil level at the top mark and no more. If my oil pressure appears to drop in long corners, then I'll drop it out of vtec to get the oil out of the head. Stories like Ponyboy's just make me wonder if oil starvation is a legitimate achille's heel that we should all be concerned about, or if he just had a run of bad luck that could happen to anybody.

 

[Ponyboy]

Jim, FWIW, I've attended more AX's than I care to count and have logged several thousand track miles and 20,000 street miles before my engine imploded.

It's a scarey thing indeed but, to be sure, this type of malfunction is in the vast minority. Not saying it can't occur but I don't think fear of this happening should hinder your enjoyment of a great automobile.

Should you have any questions, general or specific, about my incident, please feel free to ask - I'm happy to help.

 

[mgrossklaus]

Jim,
Just to give you some reassurance ... I too track the car and have been at about 10+ events. Road America, Black Hawk, autobahn. I think it's critical to watch the gauges; even though It's the last thing on your mind... especially when you first start this. The car is stock and I've haven't had problems. Ponyboys advise is important and probably not a bad Idea but I would also agree that the event he experienced is rare and very unfortunate and hopefully for all of us was caused by multiple factors not just one specific issue. Hope that helps
Mark

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

It sounds like there is consensus. You usually get away with it for a long time, especially when you first start out and simply aren't carrying high enough corner speeds.

It wasn't until late in my third year, and I had logged thousands of miles and about 50 events before I first had to cut a check due to a friend's lost miata engine. A later spun bearing on a D16Y7 with some A048's really caught me off guard at the wrong time.

If it is your first year tracking then I wouldn't let it dissuade you in the least. While past death and taxes there are never any guarantees in life, the rule seems to be that if you just check your fluids and don't let guys like Roger Foo run hot kamikaze time attack laps with your car... you'll more than likely be fine.

The problem is that it only takes once. When motor sports begins to become a very regular part of your life, then it makes sense. It is the one day when you are having fun pointing the front end toward that apex mid turn in VTEC.. when all of a sudden the valve train makes this slight audible transition and starts sounding a little bit different, and your stomach gets this really bad sinking feeling.

Put another way, assuming you ran fifty events, one NSX engine would add about $200 per event. Do the math, it's not a B18C5. Even if you don't track, the pre-lube makes a lot of sense. Like the cast gear, just do it when you can.

 

[Batoutahell]

Maybe I'm just paranoid because of previous bad luck. I've lost 4 engines in the past 3 years. One b18c5 seized two rod bearings because the engine ran dry of oil. The thief who stole my integra didn't realize that the oil dipstick tube popped out and spewed out 3 qts of oil during the police chase before the engine let go.

The other 3 engines blew on the track. The replacement b18c5 popped at 800 miles because of poor a/f tuning with the supercharger. I had the water jacket crack on a d16a6, and another d16a6 seized up because it gulped down a handful of dirt and grass.

Even though I don't see myself tracking the nsx more than 2-3x per year, I figure it does make sense to amortize the cost of a dry sump over a couple years of use.

 

[MLmotorsport]

Maybe I'm just paranoid because of previous bad luck.

As I mentioned in another related post - I had bad luck like you. After only a couple auto-x's and a couple DE's in my first year of tracking my '92 (w/ 80k miles) I had 2 blown engines due to oil starvation. Highly improbable but I woudln't wish it on anyone!

 

[HPower3]

I'm about to do my first track weekend at Mid-Ohio next week. Up until now, I've only autocrossed the car about 12-15 times without any signs of problems but now you guys have got me a little concerned.

I have a 92 w/ 145k. I'm gonna be running with the V710's and Tein Flex dampers.

Probably too late to add the oil baffle since my weekend will be booked up with some other install work. But, I'll definitely give filling the oil up to the first hole a try!

Thanks for the advice.