Giving up NSX for a Formula Mazda?

[Scin]

I have a one car garage so stop your whining!

I am going to look into hoisting the cart in the air and leaving it on top of some hi-loft garage shelves (they hang from the ceiling and can hold 150lbs pretty easily).

I also need to get rid of the sport bike, I don't think I can fit it, the nsx and the cart in the garage... not to mention I am fitting the NSX, the bike and two sets of wheels as it is.

I agree. I'm seriously considering getting into karting myself.

After the last Jim Hall karting class, I'm hooked on outdoor karting.

The only thing is I'm in the same dillema as the OP - 4 cars, 3 car garage. No space for the kart. Need to figure out how to store the kart.

We're going to buy a new house soon, but the problem is it too has only 3 car garage.

 

[drew]

Upright kart stands are the way to go. A kart foot printprint drops to 18" x 60" and it is also easy to wheel around. They cost about $100-$150.

for reference here is a picture of one:
http://www.kartsltd.com/products/stands/streeter-lgphoto5.htm

Drew

 

[cfra7]

Please note that my prospective is from dealing with a pro shop. They would like to check the car every 3 events. Some others here can provide personal experience on the time it takes to support a REAL race car. They seem to be built to last just long enough to finish a race. The motor is very strong and probably only needs a rebuild every 5 years. Perhaps longer depending on your level of competition. The motor is the best part of the car. The transaxle seems to need the most attention depending on your ability to shift. It's not uncommon to need to replace a dog ring every year.

The karts are the best for the $. However, none are as fast as an FM around a road course. We've go-sponsored a Sears Point event with Nothern Calfiornia Karters and they only Kart that could come close to an FM is called an unlimited and basiclu had no rules. They even had wings. A shifter kart wouldn't stand a chance aginst an FM.

If you can afford to race full size cars, I highly recommend going that way even if it's an FM or a Miata. I race with a lot of guys that could easily afford to move to karts but few do. I think only 1 that I know of in the last 10 years has moved from cars to Karts and that's because he couldn't afford to be competitive in cars. I know a few people who do both. I know some who have tried karts and returned to cars.

Karts are a lot of fun and require a lot of skill but it's just not the same as a full sized car going around a full size course. It's worth a try because different strokes for different people. If I sold my FM I would go back to a car and never consider a Kart. Yes, I've driven Karts and even been to a 1 day school in Las Vegas. Just not the same level of "Fantasy Racing" as the full size car. Karts are for very serious racers that can't afford serious race cars but still want to go fast and be competitive. Full size cars (including full size race cars) are for those who appreciate the vehicle as much as the speed or just have a lot of money.

I recommend that you go to an SCCA event and talk with the FM drivers. They can provide much more information. They seem to be a great group.

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: Pick the people first

I recommend that you go to an SCCA event and talk

Right on Ed. The club racers are more like your local track day buddies than the national and pro racers. Visit the local SCCA races and see what classes have the most cars and which are known for great club like camraderie. As I told Lee (Arnis) off line, pick the group first, because the exact class of car (FF or CFC or FM or SRF) is 2ndary to who you race/party/get help from.

A side note on karts. From my limited first hand experience karts are a handful and much more physically demanding. They are also the best learning/training venue for people starting out. But there's a bunch of us old farts who are just having fun, so we skipped all that. Being humiliated by a 14 year old in a kart would seem a little strange. At least the guys who humiliate me in an FM come over and slap me on the back later and offer me a beer, a laugh and some good advice.

As for times, I race with 2 former long time 250 super karters who have lap times at our home tracks nearly the same as what we do in an FM. But, we are FM newbies, older now and slowing down, so we are far off the pace of the lap records I noted above.

One thing that's always worried me however is, what happens when you crash at 100+ mph in a kart? say at T-10 at Sears Don't think I'd be walking away from something like that, at least not at my age. :frown:

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: The stars and planets are lining up

Lee, hang on to your holli-hocks, this may be your lucky day !!! The winner of the SCCA run-offs in FM for the last 2 years is literally in your neighborhood, has his winning car for sale and is a genuine modest, nice guy whom you will like, guaranteed. And get this, he is the undisputed king of shoe string racing and has shown up at the run-offs with his girlfriend as his only pit crew. Of course, he's young and talented too, but never mind that. Here's his answer to the questions I posted to the FM forum on your behalf:

Direct him my way, or give me more specifics on how to find him. I'd be happy to talk with him about these questions. Home: 301-253-2942. Summit is my home track (1hr away) and happen to know a very successfully run FM that is available to the right buyer. (Shocking plot twist: it's mine. )

"Racing: when it's going your way, it's going all your way"

 

[Arnis]

Ted,

I signed up for the board earlier today and posted a response. We have a plan to talk this evening. I had no idea of his background until you just posted this. I also noted that I am going to attend the National SCCA event being held at Summit Point this weekend as I know of at least one FM team that will be there. I assume others will be there as well so that I can get a feel for the community as you suggested as well as learn a lot more.

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: Pick the People first

OK, I guess we're done with this thread. But I gotta say one last time, that for yahoos like me, who you race with is more important than what you race. So, if you’ve heard enough about “culture, community, camaraderie” etc. hit your back button now because I’m about to point you to a thread that will bring a tear to your eye and illustrates why this issue is the most important thing in my little underachieving racing world.

There’s an old fart shoe string racer on the east coast nicknamed The Purple Frog. He has been a kibitzer, backmarker, mentor and all around likeable guy for many years in his SE region racing community. He has also been a fixture on the Apex Speed forum. Last year, like an old Frodo, he up and decides he’s going to the Run-offs of all things. Whodathunkit?

Well, his quest to make it to and finish the Run-offs took a huge effort from not only himself, his wife and his modest crew, but in the end it took damn near the whole ApexSpeed internet community, many who only knew him through the forum, to pitch in money and time to help him make his dream come true. It didn’t happen exactly as he planned it but if you believe that what goes around comes around, you'll love this. The thread starts at

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12203

The drama starts at post # 38 on page 2 of the thread.

Edit: OK, I just looked at that thread again and realized how long and convoluted it is to the casual observer, so I'll give you the Cliff notes version of the story. It was the human interest story at the Run-offs and made it on Speed Channel and into Formula Car magazine. Basically the Frog spun in T-11 at Mid-Ohio during Run-offs practice and got creamed and ended up upside down in a huge schamozel involving several cars that just kept running into the pile on the back side of a blind crest. His car is just about totaled and he puts it on the trailer and takes his wife to Niagra Falls to lick their wounds and thank God he's still alive.

In the meantime, all the people close to him and not so close to him prepare a loaner car and take up a collection to buy "insurance" on it so he can drive in the race. They call him up while he's standing at the Falls and tell him to get his ass back to Mid-Ohio, he's got qualifying to do. He's overwhelmed but takes the offer, gets a new purple driving suit donated, runs the race, passes a few fellow backmarkers, has a great time and they document the whole thing in the media. Of course he tells it with a whole lot more feeling on the stage at the Run-offs party and in the thread. For those who have followed his Will Rogers like wit and wisdom thru the years, there wasn't a dry eye in the place as they say.

 

[Arnis]

To everyone that has contributed to this thread... Thank you. I have learned a tremendous amount from your experiences. I will let you know where I finally land with this decision. I truly love my NSX and I kind always thought that I would have it. If a new NSX came out, I envisioned still keeping my current one if I also purchased the new one (still would have to deal the garage space issue but I was not worrying too much about it because a new NSX is still in the rumor stage). On the other hand, the possibility of open wheel driving was never something that I considered until Bondurant. It is very very tempting. I hope to make a decision relatively soon one way or the other.

 

[Arnis]

Well folks, it's been over a year since I posted on this thread. I have spent a lot of time contemplating what everyone has said both in this forum and outside it. Here's the update...

My FM arrived last week and I am keeping the NSX! I bit the bullet and worked out a way so that I could have my cake and eat it too. I was able to spend a little bit of time on an unfamiliar track with the FM... HOLY COW! It is quite a machine. It redefines my notion of a rocket on rails.

I had been contemplating just having the FM for track days but I have changed my mind recently. I am going to do some racing (will stay pretty local for now) which means I have to go back and re-qualify for my SCCA license (I let my eligibility expire last year when I decided to hold off on the FM).

I have a giant learning curve ahead of me which should be a great challenge.

 

[Red]

OK, Skip all you've read and buy a Porsche 944, if you want to spend a bit more a 951 (944 Turbo) there are healthy race groups all over the country, the cars a cheap and fun (relatively) and you can safely use them on DE days (I agree Formula cars don't mix well with guys driving the crap out of their M5s, or even 330is)

My race shop is near the track and stores my car - I drive my NSX out to the shop, swap cars and go off to the track - no extra equipment needed!

If I'm running slicks I'll have them drop the car off at the track for me - One of the guys who works with us calls AAA and says its running hot, send a flatbed! and meets the flatbed with driving instructions printed out!!!

 

[Hal_396]

You guys are making me want to get a shifter Kart now . That's all I need....

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: OMG, down the rabbit hole and into wonderland !!!

Congratulations Lee, and welcome to the exclusive group of 300 +/- standard FM owners.

You certainly took a different route; :biggrin: looked over the edge, plumbed the depths of the black hole, thought about it, backed away, took another peak, then carefully lowered yourself over the edge. Truly a man in control. :wink: I can relate.

It sounds like you'll follow my trail in being careful and conservative in learning the car, and that will pay dividends down the road by not upsetting the rest of your life and family too much when something breaks or needs attention. Moderation and balance !!! Good on ya.

What's your local race group like? Do you know yet? As my race reports clearly reflect, every last one of our FM group is all about the fun and camaraderie. Hope you find that too.

As for track days versus actual race events, I'd say mix both for now. To state the obvious, there are many (more than your NSX) things that need to bcome routine: just getting the car prepped for a session, getting strapped in, starting, driving, left foot braking, shifting without the clutch, on and on. Track days are good for that when you're not pressured to drive harder than 9/10s.

But I never really learned FM car control and pushed myself until I was in the tornado of a qualifying or race session. Hopefully, your local race group won't have 60 car grids with 59 of them within 2 seconds of the pole. A 30 car grid with the backmarkers running 10% off pole is a comfortable enough group to get into as a rookie. You'll need a few kicks in the butt to make yourself toss the car into the turns and really make it/let it slide like few other formula cars ever do. Your FM polesitter can explain more. Lots more to say, but you'll hear it all in good time.

Welcome. I expect to see you on the FM forum a lot.

 

[Arnis]

Thanks Ted. No one can accuse me of being impulsive on this decision that's for sure :smile:

As for the local scene... pretty nonexistant at my home track of Summit Point. in 2006, most race weekends did not have a single FM. The regional events seem to have no FMs and the yearly national race maybe has one. For the regional events, they combine most of the open wheel classes into one group (excluding FV and F500 which goes into a different run group). I knew this going into the FM purchase but my interest in the FM as a car vs. other open wheel vehicles out weighed the disadvantage of not having much of local scene.

As for track days vs. racing, I am expecting about a 4:1 to 5:1 ratio for now. I am going to aim for a string of track days before I hit a race weekend so that I can work on getting familiar with the car. My preference will be to hook up with several others and do a private track rental for my first time out at Summit Point in the FM. This will allow me to do a deep dive with the car before going out on track days with a lot of traffic and tin tops. (Heck, maybe I can get to the point of not stalling the car moving from a stand still - bloody tall first gear and almost no mass in the transmission :frown: )

 

[Coz]

I have gone through this dilemma several times myself.
I have come to the conclusion that there is some middle ground to speak of.

A car that you drive on the street will never be a true race car and a race car will never be a true street car. You have to decide what you want, how much you can afford and how much money you have to spend.

If room is the only issue, find a place for the race car to be stored or buy a house with a bigger garage.

I looked at it this way. If I have a true race car...How much am I going to spend on the car, upkeep, racing fee's, repairs, tires, truck & trailer, costs getting to, expenses while at the races and how many races am I really going to do a year. Would all this money outlay be worth the time and use I would be getting out of it. I've raced and owned Formula Ford, Formula V, Super V and Sports 2000 cars as the years have gone by. All very expensive situations and basicall money pits. I'm currently with SW Racers Group/Mike Hapin Racing and we race in the Grand Am series with 2 cars. I see the money Hapin spends on running 2 cars, and would I want to deal with all that's involved and foot the bill myself again....Not a chance.

For me personally, the answer was no. The middle ground I found was to take my NSX and prep it as much as I can for track use while maintaining drivability for the street so I can continue to get my moneys worth as my daily driver. I see this as the best of both worlds for a daily driver and occasional track car. To put all my money into a car that I will only drive 6 to 8 times a year on a track wasn't worth it to me. However, if money wasn't an issue, then you bet, I would have both.

But since money is an issue for me, I would never give up my NSX as my daily driver because I enjoy driving it to much.

These are things only you can answer...Good luck with your tough decision....It's a hard one to make.

 

[CL65 Captain]

I have gone through this dilemma several times myself.
I have come to the conclusion that there is some middle ground to speak of.

A car that you drive on the street will never be a true race car and a race car will never be a true street car. You have to decide what you want, how much you can afford and how much money you have to spend.

If room is the only issue, find a place for the race car to be stored or buy a house with a bigger garage.

I looked at it this way. If I have a true race car...How much am I going to spend on the car, upkeep, racing fee's, repairs, tires, truck & trailer, costs getting to, expenses while at the races and how many races am I really going to do a year. Would all this money outlay be worth the time and use I would be getting out of it. I've raced and owned Formula Ford, Formula V, Super V and Sports 2000 cars as the years have gone by. All very expensive situations and basicall money pits. I'm currently with SW Racers Group/Mike Hapin Racing and we race in the Grand Am series with 2 cars. I see the money Hapin spends on running 2 cars, and would I want to deal with all that's involved and foot the bill myself again....Not a chance.

For me personally, the answer was no. The middle ground I found was to take my NSX and prep it as much as I can for track use while maintaining drivability for the street so I can continue to get my moneys worth as my daily driver. I see this as the best of both worlds for a daily driver and occasional track car. To put all my money into a car that I will only drive 6 to 8 times a year on a track wasn't worth it to me. However, if money wasn't an issue, then you bet, I would have both.

But since money is an issue for me, I would never give up my NSX as my daily driver because I enjoy driving it to much.

These are things only you can answer...Good luck with your tough decision....It's a hard one to make.

Coming from a Man that now owns two NSXs.... :biggrin: You should have bought the FM and told the wife it was for her.

 

[Coz]

LOL....I wish I had thought of that !

Coming from a Man that now owns two NSXs.... :biggrin: You should have bought the FM and told the wife it was for her.

 

[NSXLuvr]

1st of all Congratulations!!! post some pics.

2nd of all - I wish I have your patience and discipline.

 

[Arnis]

Thanks NSXLuvr. I am extremely excited about this whole new avenue and very happy that I am going to be able to keep my NSX. As a matter of fact, I took the NSX to the track yesterday and it was great to push it (the FM/open wheel cars are only allowed out on certain types of track days and this was not one of them).

Here are some picture of the formula mazda...

 

[Arnis]

Hey fellow NSXers,

For anyone who comes across this post during their own search into racing open wheel cars, it's time for a two year update for whatever it is worth. A lot has happened since I bought the FM.

It's probably best to recap why I bought a new FM to begin with. First, I wanted a new car as I thought that would allow me to concentrate on driving more than fixing the car. Second, I was not concerned about having every tweak possible on the car to make it a front runner as I was only going to keep this a hobby with no intention of doing anything but having some weekend fun with more of a focus on open track days than real racing.

Well, I was wrong on both accounts! On the first point, I found out that brand new open wheel racecars are actually more work than a well developed used open wheel racecar. I discovered the hard way that there is a big difference between streetcars that you buy off the showroom floor and open wheel racecars. I found working out the kinks of a new racecar fascinating but I also found it very difficult to learn how to drive a very fast formula car at the same time it was being developed (too many variables changing at the same time to isolate what was causing the issue - the loose nut behind the wheel or a loose nut on the car) and rather expensive. Regarding my second point about the competitiveness of the car... once I started racing, I wanted to win :smile: Heading into this whole racing thing, I told myself that I was going to control my natural urge to throw myself into it 110%. Well, I failed miserably! It was not that I had to beat everyone else. It just became a big challenge to push myself, push my abilities, and to learn more and get better. It became very obvious that it was going to become very difficult to be able to tell if it was the car holding me back or just my poor driving without making huge investments in the car when all I wanted was to spend my money on seat time and not mechanical time.

I eventually was given the opportunity to drive a very well developed Formula Ford (FF) over a weekend and after that experience decided that I should probably work on my wingless car control first before focusing on wings. FFs are similar to FMs in that they are relatively reliable and, as open wheel racing goes, on the less expensive side to buy and maintain for the performance. The emphasis on “relative” is a big one! Racing has not been cheap. These open wheel cars are designed to within a micron of physical limits so things do break and come loose. You (or someone else that you really trust) constantly need to be looking over the car and tightening things, looking for metal fatigue, etc. I ended up outsourcing this to a prep shop so that all I have to do is focus on driving and they focus on the car. It was a great decision for me as they are almost always working on the car when we are at the track (no, they don’t get paid by the hour at the track so it does not cost any more for them to leave the car alone than work on it) but it does add a lot of cost.

I bought a Swift DB-1 toward the end of last summer and went racing with many more improvements in my abilities than I ever expected. I got into it so much that I ended up getting my national license and have been running mostly national races since. I was still hoping to keep the FM and continue to develop it in my spare time so that when I was ready to go back into wings, the car would become my training ground. Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how one looks at it, I was recently presented with an opportunity to buy an incredible Swift DB-6 for a great price that I could not pass up. I am keeping the DB-1 so I just could not justify keeping the FM.

I will also note that driving a formula car is very different than driving a streetcar. Learning how to shift without using the clutch…. Left foot braking…. in car sway bar adjustments… etc. An idea for anyone going through the same dilemma and trying to figure out what open wheel car they are interested in might want to consider renting one for a weekend and seeing what you think before buying. Each formula car class is different and some people just match up better with certain types versus others.

As for the NSX, I still have it and enjoy it on the weekends and the occasional drive to the office. It has been pretty much retired from the track but I still love it.

Happy motoring!

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: Thanks for the update

Lee, good to hear you're moving in a positive direction; having a pro shop take care of the car was apparently a very wise move for you and we wish you all the best with your FF racing.

One small point of clarification about the "development of a new car" issue. You bought the one and only prototype for what was to be the next generation of the standard FM. Star Race Cars, who built the std FM since '91 and who now build the Pro Star Mazda had a great idea; to take the Renesis engine and detune it for the standard drivetrain and/or do some other things to handle the extra 60 HP and make the physical modifications to fit it in the chassis.

But the idea never made financial sense for the old farts like me that just club-race these cars once a month for a plastic trophy. Our attitude was; "it ain't broke yet, so why fix it? I ain't spending $10k + to convert my car."

Unfortunately, you were left alone to work out the bugs on a prototype, the exact thing you thought you were avoiding. And shame on me for not wondering 2-3 years ago if this might not happen. Of course, at the time, the economy was still good, we couldn't be sure of the future of the class and I kind of hoped the idea might take off. Who knew? :redface:

Point being, for anyone looking at a standard FM, your experience was a one of a kind; all the other FM's out there are as standard and spec as a race car can get and basic maintenance is all that's required; even for a tool challenged wanker like me. :tongue:

Well, good luck with your new car and new group of friends; as you are happily aware, the FF class has alway been deep with good sized grids. We hope you can take the time to write a race report; always want to hear how goofy little "racing things" can make the weekend go so good or so wrong.

 

[jtower]

very interesting write-up, thanks for posting it. i'm hoping to start w2w racing in the near future, but probably in something "simple" like spec miata or spec e30. keep us appraised of your trials and tribulations!

 

[lightguy]

In open wheel racing FM gives the biggest bang for the buck BY FAR.
Been there, done that.
Even with that, tires, as said before are the big ticket item. I couldn't keep up with the kids that practice on new sets of tires for two sessions then change to a new set, for two more sessions. Same thing next day.
I was using one set a race weekend if I wanted to stay in the ballpark.
Forget practice sessions. I would buy slightly used practice tires from the above mentioned kids.
Maintained the car myself. FM's are as simple as it gets, reliable, and other than practice time and tires, this is the class where Joe 6 pack can compete.
Open wheel racing provided the biggest thrill in my lifetime. Glad to have done it.

And BTW NSX's are great but "real" race cars dont have doors

 

[Arnis]

Let me clarify two things about my last post.

First, I am not knocking any race class or making any statement that one is better than the other. Each formula class has advantages and disadvantages. Every individual values/quantifies "bang for the buck" differently. Running a Formula Atlantic is extremely expensive but I know drivers in that class that find the money spent for what they get exactly what they want. They would never even consider moving to a different class as it is the perfect bang for their buck. I know others who feel they could never justify spending that kind of money. Just remember that in the equation, enjoyment (a.k.a. bang) divided by money (a.k.a. buck) has two components. Different people value both the denominator and the numerator differently from others.

Second, my experience with a new FM was unique as I owned the prototype. I did not go into the details of the trials and tribulations around that unique aspect of owning a prototype as the likelihood that anyone would have that experience is remote. I made the statement about new formula cars requiring additional money and/or time to bring them to the most competitive level because the comment not rooted in my unique prototype situation. From my experiences in talking to other racers in other open wheel classes, the statement remains true outside the prototype complicating factor. Most of the racers that I know that have bought new formula cars (across a variety of open wheel classes) have spent more money buying the car than if they were to have bought a well developed used one and then had to put a lot more money and time into the new car to get it to top form. I have seen a lot of hours put into a new car chasing down little gremlins and tweaking this and that.

I am not trying to discourage anyone from buying a new formula car (regardless of class). There are definite advantages to buying new... no basic parts will need to be replace.... no worries about it being wrecked... etc. Depending on your goals and budget, there are disadvantages too. On the flip side, buying a used formula car has its own advantages and disadvantages. My point is to just make people aware that buying a new open wheel racecar is not like buying a new street legal car with a nice warranty that eliminates any worries of unexpected expenses for some long period of time. Knowing the pros and cons is always a good thing. People will come to different conclusions with the information but having it is better than not having it.

 

[lightguy]

You have a Swift DB 1 and 6 ?
Wow.
I Love those cars looks wise.
DB6 is still as competitive in FF as ever.
I think the 3X National champ DB1 is still in Texas.

Tube frame FM is still the bomb.

 

[nsxalot]

There is one more way to go and that is a Thunder Roadster which is the size of the FM. One seat, open top, rollcage, covered or open wheels, 1600 cc (?) and new for $14,000. I know one NSX owner that loves to track this car. We have more than 6 of them in NV.
They are not as fast as the FM but cost much less.

Lance