Honda's "break-in oil" -- any evidence?

[DeHaldaswerth]

I own a 2000 NSXt and a 2001 Honda s2000. I must preface my post by confessing that I am extremely fussy about maintaining and caring for my cars. "Compulsive" is a word my dear wife has become fond of ever since I brought the NSX home. Anyway, in a tribute to the theory of overkill, and because I just couldn't wait to wrench on the NSX, I put on my white lab coat and changed the oil and filter at 250 miles. I put my favorite oil in -- Mobile 1 10-30 -- and, of course, a Honda filter.

After buying the s2000, I noticed that the owner's manual warned against changing the oil BEFORE the recommended interval during break-in. After visiting an s2000 forum, I found a rageing debate about Honda's so called "break-in oil" and whether it was really wise to follow the manual and leave oil in a new engine for 7500 miles. BTW, the 2000 NSX owners manual contains no prohibition against an early oil change. The prevailing wisdom on the site in question seems to be that the factory oil has more surfactants (detergent?) and is therefore better at minimizing the particulates that are inherent in new engines. I have not seen a shread of evidence to support this theory, and there is no such thing as "break-in oil" available at any Honda dealer that I am aware of.

So, the burning question . . . did I make a mistake in puting synthetic oil in the NSX so early? If so, what are the potential consequences? I now have 1300 miles on the NSX. The Mobil 1 literature assures me that Mobile 1 is fine for new engine break-in, and that it is the factory fill for both Corvette and Porsche. I guess I can go back to dino oil for 5000 miles, but do I really need to do that? Why would I need heavy detergent in the oil if I am willing to change it at frequent intervals during break-in?

Thanks for your help!

 

[nsxtasy]

Break-in oil is a fact. It's included in the NSX engine, too, although I'm not sure whether it is or isn't stated in the owner's manual. This was confirmed by the manager of Techline for the NSX (Techline is the people at Acura HQ whom your dealer's service department calls if they can't solve a problem themselves).

Once you've changed it out, though, it's too late, and I would just keep going with the Mobil 1. It probably won't make any difference.

 

[vega12]

yes, you dont want to put synthetic oil in any engine that soon. it must be broken in for at least 1000-2000 miles.

 

[1HOT NSX]

I did the same thing to my '99 and then Lud told me about the "special oil". I wrote to Acura and I was told the following: "At the time of production, the original oil used in all Acura automobiles has additives to seat internal bearing surfaces. This oil is designed and intended for use withing the first 12 months or 7,500. Unfortunately, we do not provide this product for sale in the retail market." . My "special oil" was still sitting in a brand new extractor that I had bought from Grior's garage, so I put it back in. I only left it in for the first 1,500 miles and then I switched to regular oil for the next 3K miles. Now I use synthetic and the car runs fine.

 

[David]

yes, you dont want to put synthetic oil in any engine that soon. it must be broken in for at least 1000-2000 miles.[/QUOTE]

That's just not true. It is the equivalent of a mechanics old wives tale that has persisted since synthetic oils were introduced, based on the flawed theory that parts won't wear enough to break in properly if a synthetic is used. If it were true, why would so many high-performance cars roll off the assembly line with synthetics in them?

 

[Lud]

Not just high-performance cars... Even my carbed 2-stroke jetski came with synthetic oil from the factory.

 

[DeHaldaswerth]

My confusion stems from a lack of clear information. First, if the break-in oil is so important, why is it not mentioned in the owner's manual? (believe me, I've checked). Second, how can ANY oil protect against the contamination in a new engine? Wouldn't the benefits of frequent, early changes outweigh the supposed benefits of the "special oil"?

I have a theory, which I will admit may sound hairbrained -- is it possible that the "special oil" simply has a higher detergent level and is a different viscosity than the recommended 10-30 to allow for the heat/stress of a new engine? Is it possible that these concerns fade after the engine is broken it and that, rather than have a complicated explaination in the owner's manual, Acura just tells us to leave the oil alone? I still wish I could see some form of verifiable analysis of exactly what is in the
break-in oil. Maybe I should give up and call it snake oil

.

 

[vega12]

That's just not true. It is the equivalent of a mechanics old wives tale that has persisted since synthetic oils were introduced, based on the flawed theory that parts won't wear enough to break in properly if a synthetic is used. If it were true, why would so many high-performance cars roll off the assembly line with synthetics in them? [/B]

i only know of two cars with synthetic. My father has gone to school for this kind of stuff and he will tell you also. currently he is working on and 83 monte carlo, he is putting a ram jet 350(350hp,400ftlbs). in his manual says not to use synthetic for break in period, and that is a pretty high performanc motor.

 

[vega12]

That's just not true. It is the equivalent of a mechanics old wives tale that has persisted since synthetic oils were introduced, based on the flawed theory that parts won't wear enough to break in properly if a synthetic is used. If it were true, why would so many high-performance cars roll off the assembly line with synthetics in them? [/B]

i only know of two cars with synthetic. My father has gone to school for this kind of stuff and he will tell you also. currently he is working on and 83 monte carlo, he is putting a ram jet 350(350hp,400ftlbs). in his manual says not to use synthetic for break in period, and that is a pretty high performance motor.

 

[DeHaldaswerth]

To my knowledge, the new Corvette, Porsche and Viper are factory filled with Mobile 1. Mobile 1 is ADAMANT that new engine building technology, coupled with developments in synthetic oil have resolved concerns about using synthetics during break in.

 

[David]

Second, how can ANY oil protect against the contamination in a new engine? Wouldn't the benefits of frequent, early changes outweigh the supposed benefits of the "special oil"?

I have a theory, which I will admit may sound hairbrained -- is it possible that the "special oil" simply has a higher detergent level and is a different viscosity than the recommended 10-30 to allow for the heat/stress of a new engine?[/QUOTE]

Pure speculation -> Perhaps Honda uses an oil with a high detergent level to 'break in' the motor because they use some kind of lubricant on the parts when they assemble them. There are several types of lube designed to coat parts when you assemble an engine so that there is no special wear on them when you run it for the first time. Who knows.

 

[ChopsJazz]

But aren't detergents put in an oil to break down deposits? ie. not in a brand new engine? It's confusing.

 

[David]

Originally posted by vega12:
i only know of two cars with synthetic. My father has gone to school for this kind of stuff and he will tell you also. currently he is working on and 83 monte carlo, he is putting a ram jet 350(350hp,400ftlbs). in his manual says not to use synthetic for break in period, and that is a pretty high performanc motor.

Just off the top of my head, Porsches, Mercedes, Vipers, Corvettes and Aston Martins all roll off the line with Mobil 1. I am not sure, but BMWs may use it as well. I'm sure if I researched it a bit, the list would be much longer. Oh, just remembered, Ferraris ship with a Shell synthetic.

[This message has been edited by David (edited 27 February 2001).]

 

[Smoothaccel]

I am not sure but I think that it is necessary for the engine to wear a tiny(microscopic bit)till the metal is smooth, when it is new "breakin period". This is for the contact surfaces(piston rings against cylinder walls for example) to "mate" form a tight seal. After this initial period, it is safe to put in super slick mobil 1 syn.
Using Syn oil too early may prolong this phase and may have varied long term results since the inside surfaces of the engine changes with time. If honda reccomends a break in oil, I would think that the engine needs it. Cars like Benz and BMW have a different engine fabrication process and may do fine with syntetic oil from the start

 

[mlambert890]

I think smoothaccel makes a good point. The cars that ship with synthetic are designed to ship with synthetic.

That's not really evidence for, or against, how necessary "break in" oil is on the NSX.

It might be no problem, but then again, it might be needed. Does anyone have an official statement from Honda on this? I'd be inclined to take their word for it...

 

[Michigan NSX]

I switched to Mobil 1 10W30 ONE WEEK after I got my NSX! Did I switch too early? (P.S. My NSX had 103,000 miles on it when I got it)

------------------
'91 Black/Black

[This message has been edited by Michigan NSX (edited 22 March 2002).]

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by spookyp:
Does anyone have an official statement from Honda on this? I'd be inclined to take their word for it...

Yes. The use of the special break-in oil has been noted by "Woodwork", American Honda's expert on the NSX who mans their "Techline" service (answering all the questions and problems that dealer service departments can't figure out themselves).

 

[DeHaldaswerth]

An intersting note: my 2000 NSX manual said nothing about leaving the oil in during break in, but my 2001 NSX manual has changed, and now says the same thing as the S2000 -- leave the original oil in until the recommended interval. Hmmm. . .

 

[CiaoBoy]

The April 2002 issue of Road & Track addresses this question. On page 124 (Technical Correspondence), they say that 5W-20 mineral oil is used in the 2001 Honda Civic. But they don't mention whether or not that is the regular oil that is supposed to be used for Civic's entire life, or whether it's a special weight of oil that new cars are filled with.

-CiaoBoy

 

[POWERED by HONDA]

Originally posted by spookyp:
It might be no problem, but then again, it might be needed. Does anyone have an official statement from Honda on this? I'd be inclined to take their word for it...

I don't classify this as an official statement from Honda. But as nsxtasy stated, woodwork posted this on the NSX lists.

Subject: [NSX] Mobile 1 and oil consumption
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:12:41 -0800
From: Kent Shepley <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

<< it is normal for a high performance car like the nsx to eat oil?
2000 miles since my last oil change of Mobil 1 10W 30....
it ate a quart. >>


Keep in mind guys that Mobil 1 has been blamed for not letting the rings seat on
a new engine. We have proved it several times. That is why I, when on my soap
box, I say to let the break-in oil do it's job for at least 7,500 miles.

Most factory reps will say anything over 1000 miles per quart is not excessive.

Please don't change the oil till 7,500 miles.

Woodwork

 

[POWERED by HONDA]

Another one.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [NSX-TECH] engine oil
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:19:10 -0800
From: Kent Shepley <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

>>Anyone here know what the difference is between that break-in oil and
>>traditional oil?

>There hasn't been such a thing for a couple decades. It's normal engine
>oil. Todays cars simply don't need "break-in oil" since the building
>process of engines is so much better these days.


Yes guys, Honda does use a special oil in the engine when it comes from
the factory. That is why we recommend leaving the oil in for at least 5000
miles. 7,500 is better.
Don't ask me what it is, I don't know, I do know that the engine
engineers really get pissed when the oil comes out of the engine before it
should. Want your engine to last the longest possible? Leave in the
factory fill oil.
Hope this helps.
Kent

 

[nsx4fun]

DeHaldaswerth,
Seeing as how you already changed it and Honda won't sell "the special stuff", it doesn't matter much now that you can't go back. But you can take pleasure in the fact that most of that initial wear takes place very quick, so in 250 miles you were probably 80 to 90% of the wear that 7500 miles would do. I've rebuilt quite a few engines, mostly Honda motorcycles. And I like getting the initial wear crap out of the engine quickly. On engines I rebuild, my break in methodology has been to use a good straight 30 weight dino oil. Once the engine has been started, checked out for ignition timing, good oil flow, etc. We hit the freeway for a low acceleration rate round trip of about 50 miles. Vary the rpm some, but stay away from redline, and no more than 1/2 throttle accelerations, mostly 1/4 throttle. Get home and drain the crap out. Fill it with a better multi-viscocity and a new filter. Allow myself a little more throttle and RPM for the next 450 miles. Replace with synthetic and new filter, and change it every 5K. I've had many vehicles and rebuilt a few engines, and I have never had problems with excess oil burning due to poorly seated rings or bearings that wore out prematurely. And I tend to drive my motorcycle hard. It is the one engine that gets lots of full throttle to redline and occasionally beyond (sometimes way beyond, and I hate it when that happens).
Whatever theroretical problems you may have caused by changing out "the special stuff" early, I am sure you will never notice the difference.

Fritz

 

[Veleno]

What do Mark Basch or Barnman have to say about this? I'd like to hear what these two top NSX mechanics have to say.

I do believe woodwork, but the question of why Honda doesn't put it in the Owners manual or inform buyers puzzles me.

If the intent of Honda and/or it's engineers is to leave the "break in oil" in the engine for 5k miles, then why not state it so there won't be any debates such as this?

Inquiring minds want to know

------------------
Richard
NSXTASY

 

[NSXTech]

Originally posted by Veleno:
What do Mark Basch or Barnman have to say about this? I'd like to hear what these two top NSX mechanics have to say.

I do believe woodwork, but the question of why Honda doesn't put it in the Owners manual or inform buyers puzzles me.

If the intent of Honda and/or it's engineers is to leave the "break in oil" in the engine for 5k miles, then why not state it so there won't be any debates such as this?

Inquiring minds want to know

Well, you asked, so here I go.
Fact: Kent Sheply is an AHM employee called a model engineer. Honda has one for every car they sell. I personally kmow Kent, as well as the Legend model engineer Dennis Kawakami. Model engineers are hired by AHM and are sent to factory training schools and are "the" people who have the ear and the 'word' from the engineer in Japan who designs and builds these cars. If Kent says please leave the oil in its important, than its important.
Fact: Manufacturing and material processies have changed so much in the last twenty years, that the type of oil used in first fill today is nothing like first fill used twenty years ago.
Fact: When consumer agencies started compiling cost per year reports on all cars, engineers were instructed to keep this cost as low as possible, and Honda has reacted by changing their cars maintenance requirements so drastically, that most '01 models do not get a real tune up till 105k miles. The NSX gets one at 60k.
Fact: Honda has lowered the viscosity ratings on all its oils because of CAFE, not because of oil or engine changes.
Fact: When we had 25 or so NSX's show up at our dyno day 2 years ago, we recorded differences in *identical* cars of at least 25 hp, with clean, repeatable pulls, on 6 or 7 different cars.
Fact: I have rebuilt 5 NSX motors in the last 4 weeks, that range between 45 and 103k miles, and none of them, except the one that ingested the 69.00 SC, had ANY measurable wear in the cylinders or pistons. Bearing wear varied, but all would have ben reusable if I had chose to, except the one that had spun due to lack'o' lube.
Fact: I have a customer in Hunstville who flys me to his estate for service, who is a defense contractor. Among other things, he owns a plant that makes cylinders and liners for, among other companies, Harley, and AMGeneral. He showed me a cylinder liner
(he removed it from a protectice packaging in the trunk of one of his twin Bentleys as he had just been to a meeting where he was showing these off) that was made with a process that he has pateneted, that goes from the casting mold to the engine with NO machining at all. Zero. Zip. The surface was so unique, so perfect for piston ring wear. He claimed to me that he could coat it with grease and run it 10,000 miles at 3500 rpm with no oil in any crankcase. Its whats in the new Hummers and Harley 1200 motors. They are almost indestructable as far as bad oil control related problems go.

Opinion: Modern motors are made so well, especially Honda motors, that there is absolutely no need to dump oil erly. I left the oil in my '02 Highlander till 7k miles.

Opinion: The difference between the 225 and the 250 base hp pulls we did, was partly related to break in procedure, but not oil. While most people could not remember how they followed the break in instructions, they did remember the oil routine and there was absolutely NO correlation or pattern.
Opinion: If the AHM model engineer says leave it in, then whats the question??
Opinion: Did the person who started this thread do anything wrong by changing his oil early?? Only according to my dear Mother. She always says, that wasting money is a sin. And boy, is her son a sinner.

Bottom line for me- Leave it in, but don't loose any sleep over it.

Cheers,
Mark Basch

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by NSXTech:
Bottom line for me- Leave it in, but don't loose any sleep over it.

Here's another data point. (DeHaldaswerth, take note, as this may be some relief to you.) When my car was new, I changed the oil (for synthetic) when it had 246 miles on it. It's never used a drop of oil in the 50K+ miles since then, including lots of track miles. I've never dynoed it, but it keeps up just fine on the track.

I didn't know any better at that time. I don't worry about it. But if I had a new car now, now that I do know better, I would leave the break-in oil in the car for at least 5000 miles.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 23 March 2002).]