Apple licensed interface elements from Xerox, not stole.
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MAC OR PC which is better?
- Thread starter shawn110975
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Apple licensed interface elements from Xerox, not stole.
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Spring 2012 for PC's. Faster speeds are always welcome; that said, it seems that the strategy behind Thunderbolt has doomed it from the start IMO. Backwards compatibility, zero license fees (no idea if Thunderbolt will have any) and one year + head start are tough to overcome. Firewire isn't owned by Apple and we know how that turned out.
You said the new MBP has features that comparable PC's don't have, and the 5 you listed were nothing special. Even so, if there was a complete across the board comparison the Precision would beat the MBP in tech specs alone hands down. We can both agree the major difference is the OS.
For 95% of people, all of those fancy specs you listed will be barely noticeable. For a heavy graphics user, the mac will blow away the $500 pc - but there are PC's that are just as fast that still cost less.
You talk about the previous generation as "obsolete". My pc is still plenty fast with its "obsolete" processor.
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- 120
So by this logic the MacBook Air and Mac Mini are obsolete. Why aren't they at bargain basement prices? They're using Core2Duos which are 2 generations old?
- Joined
- 18 November 2004
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- 120
Yes, Apple has invented everything in the technology world as we know it. Come on Jimbo, that ridiculous statement just kills your credibility. A company called Audio Highway had the first MP3 player at CES in January 1997, a full 4 years before the iPod came out.
Another great Apple innovation coming in Lion - full screen apps! Wait, that's been available since Windows 95, 16 years ago.
Or how about the new notification system in iOS5, that is totally original right? No other phone OS has notifications at the top of the screen, or allows you to pull down to see them.
Its silly to crown Apple as the "source" for all technology innovation since the beginning of the PC era. The fact is everyone copies everyone and Apple is just as guilty as any other company.
Hehe, this is starting to get very religious 
Anyways, looking at low-end bargain basement machines is pointless. Apple is not interested in that segment. Look how well it's done for the countless number of PC manufacturers competing in that space -- even the big ones like Dell have gotten smoked. Competing by eating into your margins is a great way to run your business into the ground.
When you start comparing prices of products from tier-1 manufacturers with similar components and features, you start to see that Apple's pricing is not that far off and in some cases it's even cheaper.
The bottom line is that Apple makes premium products. Period. There is a cost associated with the design, materials, and construction of the machine, as well as the extra little things they're typically first to market with eg. magsafe, drop sensor, IPS panels, SSD's, gigabit ethernet, mux'd GPU switching etc. You're also paying a premium for their brand. If a person is not interested in paying for any of that, there are plenty of lower cost options out there.
Arguing that a Mac is overpriced is like arguing that an NSX is overpriced. Sure, you can get a mustang with better straight line performance for cheaper, but there is so much more to the NSX. As owners, we can appreciate the car for its track performance, the timeless design, the hand-built aluminum construction, the excellent interior design and visibility, the high redline, titanium connecting rods, etc. A mustang owner will dismiss all that and tell you how he put in a K&N filter for $15 and his car now beats a stock automatic in the quarter mile.
Clearly you can easily build/buy a Windows box for much cheaper than a Mac. That point is not in question. What surprises me, especially coming from exotic car owners, is why the need to convince others that they're being irrational for spending more on a premium product?
We're the group that pay $1000+ for a watch, spend $10-20k on mod'ing our cars, and think a used F430 Spyder for $100k is a "good value". We as a group probably shouldn't be talking about rational purchases or questioning the value of premium products
Anyways, looking at low-end bargain basement machines is pointless. Apple is not interested in that segment. Look how well it's done for the countless number of PC manufacturers competing in that space -- even the big ones like Dell have gotten smoked. Competing by eating into your margins is a great way to run your business into the ground.
When you start comparing prices of products from tier-1 manufacturers with similar components and features, you start to see that Apple's pricing is not that far off and in some cases it's even cheaper.
The bottom line is that Apple makes premium products. Period. There is a cost associated with the design, materials, and construction of the machine, as well as the extra little things they're typically first to market with eg. magsafe, drop sensor, IPS panels, SSD's, gigabit ethernet, mux'd GPU switching etc. You're also paying a premium for their brand. If a person is not interested in paying for any of that, there are plenty of lower cost options out there.
Arguing that a Mac is overpriced is like arguing that an NSX is overpriced. Sure, you can get a mustang with better straight line performance for cheaper, but there is so much more to the NSX. As owners, we can appreciate the car for its track performance, the timeless design, the hand-built aluminum construction, the excellent interior design and visibility, the high redline, titanium connecting rods, etc. A mustang owner will dismiss all that and tell you how he put in a K&N filter for $15 and his car now beats a stock automatic in the quarter mile.
Clearly you can easily build/buy a Windows box for much cheaper than a Mac. That point is not in question. What surprises me, especially coming from exotic car owners, is why the need to convince others that they're being irrational for spending more on a premium product?
We're the group that pay $1000+ for a watch, spend $10-20k on mod'ing our cars, and think a used F430 Spyder for $100k is a "good value". We as a group probably shouldn't be talking about rational purchases or questioning the value of premium products
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I don't really think that is the case. The issue is that Apple fanboys can't accept the fact that there are other things in the world besides Apple, yet they keep trying to shove how great Apple is down our throats. They think Apple invented the world as we know it. They think everything Apple does is better than everyone else. It doesn't matter if the FACTS point to something different, they just blindly follow their master Steve Jobs.
If someone wants a cheap laptop, they won't get that from Apple.
If someone wants a high performance laptop, then they can cross shop Apple Macbook with high-end PC's and ultimately they will pick what they like best.
Often, Apple isn't the first to invent something, but they are the first to re-engineer and develop and refine that something so it's actually desirable.
Yeah, there's been a few things Apple has copied but the vast number of innovations has come from Apple.
Why don't you name 10 big Microsoft personal computing innovations?
No one is trying to force anything down your throat. If you're happy with your computer and OS, fine. I've never criticised or namecalled anyone for making their decision. Hey, I use Windows 7 more than I use my Mac OS X system.
Apple pretty much did invent the personal computing world as we know it but that's another matter. The Windows PC you buy today has Macintosh legacy all through it. When I get a chance, I'll jot down all the things that Apple either invented, popularized or introduced to the personal computing world. I think even the Apple haters and critics will be surprised.
As I think back through the various Mac vs PC posts on this forum, it's the PC posters who have been the ones to call names and to even admit to hating Apple.
Because we make a conscious decision to buy and use a Mac and because we're enthusiastic of the products, we're constantly derided as "fanboys" or mind numbed robots under the control of Steve Jobs. And if we dare to try to point out the reasoning behind our choice, well, that's just another reason for name calling.
Arshad really hit the nail on the head. You would think there would be a bit more understanding in a NSX forum for a consumer choice that wasn't ubiquitous. We didn't buy the more prevalent Corvette for a reason. We didn't care that the NSX had a miniscule market share or that it was more expensive.
-Jim
Thanks Jim. I did that exact comparison back in post #218 and determined for my use the Lenovo offers much better VALUE. I guess you never read it. I don't know how anyone could say MacBooks offer any value.. Better user experience? yes, maybe.. But "value" you've got to be joking.. Haha.. It's like that calling that Ferrari F355 a "value" vs the NSX. LOLz
Speaking of MacBooks.. Can any of you Apple owners help me figure out why all streaming videos (Vimeo, YouTube, flash, HTML5, MP4) all skip during playback on my wife's Aluminum MacBook (Intel Core 2 duo)? It'll play about 10 seconds then skip (drop a few frames). Play another 10 secs and skip. All software is up to date (Apple and Adobe). Also we wait until all videos have fully downloaded before we play them.
"Value" is different to different people. From a pure monetary perspective, you're always going to find cheaper alternatives than a Mac. Heck, I'm sure I could find a cheaper alternative than that Lenovo as well from some bargain basement manufacturer.
On the other hand, if "value" means improved user experience, or "value" relates to having all of your CPU+HD resources dedicated to what you're doing and not to running stupid malware + virus checkers in the background, or "value" relates to getting 8 hours of usable battery instead of 4... then yes, to some people it's a better value.
BTW, I strongly disagree with the statement that Apple invented computing as we know it. I think they made some very good contributions along the way, but really it's been an evolutionary process with a lot of different players involved. I think their contributions to the smartphone market on the other hand has been a paradigm shift relative to what was out there before.
This reminds me of the mid 80's and having similar flame wars on Fidonet and Usenet as to Commodore64 vs Apple2 vs TRS-80 vs Atari800, or Mac vs PC vs Amiga ... ah the fun old days ;-)
That's very odd. The machine is capable of easily playing back 720p HD content at 30fps without dropping frames as most h.264 decode goes to the NV hardware decoder. Even full SW decode should not stutter with a Core2Duo.
Just to be clear, is this happening only on video through websites, or also content that you've downloaded and played standalone through VLC or QT player?
Yes I agree. My 5 year old Toshiba plays them fine. I've google searched it and it seems to be a common problem... To be clear, I've only noticed it on webbased content like on YouTube.com and Vimeo.com. When I say "download", I mean "fully buffered" or the download progess bar is fully filled.
It sounds like it's happening with flash based or other video going through CPU decode. You can verify this by downloading some free video from iTunes and seeing if it stutters during playback (it shouldn't as it will go through HW decode).
Have you noticed your fan coming on more often than before? My guess is that your machine is running hot because of dust accumulation, forcing the CPU to down-clock in order to remain within the thermal envelope. This will affect performance across the board, not just in playing back movies (although that's where it will be easily noticed) There are utilities out there that tell you the temps of each sensor and you can see if the machine is running hotter than it should.
If you're up for it, you can try the first 12 steps in this tutorial to open up your machine, and use a can of compressed air to blow out all the dust, especially on the fan. This will likely solve your problem:
http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Repair/Installing-MacBook-Core-2-Duo-Heat-Sink/524/1
I did read it. You were talking about MacBooks and not MacBook Pros. You're the one who posted that a MacBook was $1,600.
Value is a subjective thing.
Hapa, if you post URLs, I'd be happy to test them out on mine. Or if you want, you can PM them.
The basic premise is that last year's chips and technology will always be less expensive. This is how the entire low-cost laptop market exists. Do most people need the latest and fastest machine? Of course not. Most people people just want to surf the web, get their email, etc. This is one reason the iPad is so successful.
The point was however, that when you compare a $550 laptop using last year's components against the current MacBook Pro you're comparing Apples and stale bread. If you compare a MacBook Pro (Sandy Bridge with 1333Mhz memory, etc) with a comparable Windows laptop - then the difference is much, much less and the Mac is more competitive.
Again, if you're concerned about cost and don't care about performance, fine. Buy the $550 PC.
-Jim
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Because they can sell every one they make. And new versions of both of these computers will be released soon.
-Jim
Just picked up a PC Laptop and I'm not sure if I should keep it or not.
The original idea was to replace my aging Toshiba Pentium Dual Core from late 2006/early 2007. It still works, but the display is starting to flicker. Anyway, this one was on sale at Fry's this week and was hard to pass up. I haven't opened the box, but it looked nice in the store. I have 15 days to return it..
Here's the specs. Let me know what you guys think. (I'd probably be using it mostly for web browsing, Office, DVD watching, an occasional audio/video encode and basic Photoshop.)
IBM/Lenovo IdeaPad Z560 09143YU Notebook
15.6" LED Screen (1366x768)
Intel Core i5-480M (2.66GHz up to 2.9GHz with Turbo Boost)
4GB DDR3 Memory (PC3-8500 DDR3 SDRAM 1066MHz)
500GB HDD, 5400rpm
DVD Super Multi-Drive
Intel HD Graphics
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-Bit
1.3MP Webcam
Ethernet, VGA, HDMI, 2 USB 2.0 ports, eSATA/USB combo, 5-in-1 card reader, audio jacks
6 Cell Lithium-Ion (~4.5 hr battery life)
Bluetooth(??-not sure)
~5.5 lbs
Price: $529 + tax onsale at Fry's and frys.com
The comparable Macbook was the older MacBook Pro 15" Core i5:
15.4" LED (1440x900, smaller screen but higher res, better)
2.53GHz Intel Core i5 (slightly slower)
500 GB Hard Drive, 5400rpm (same)
8x DVD/CD SuperDrive (same)
4GB DDR3 RAM (same)
Mac OS X v10.6 Snow Leopard Operating System
Intel HD Graphics and NVIDIA GeForce GT 330M 256MB (same + way better)
Mac OS X v10.6 Snow Leopard Operating System
About 8-9 hr battery life (double battery life)
~5.5 lbs (~same)
Price: Not on Apple's website since it's been replaced, but is $1599 + tax w/free shipping from Buy.com & a few other vendors.
That's a price difference of $1070!
Adrian,
This is not complex. In your original post you compared a MacBook Pro with the Lenovo. Fine.
Then later you wrote that a "MacBook" was $1600.
That confused me since "MacBook" is a separate model that maxxed out at $1200.
You meant MacBook Pro and I should have remembered which model you were comparing in your original post.
No problem.
-J
Incomplete List of Apple Computing Innovations - not in any particular order
Apple pioneered, developed or popularized the following technologies. In most cases, Microsoft copied it. Taken in-whole, these advancements pretty much define our modern personal computer of today.
Personal Computing - Not the first personal computer, but the Apple I and II made personal computing happen. TRS-80 and PET were runner-ups.
Modern Laptop Layout - Apple was the first to nail the basic design of all laptops sold today with trackpad in front of keyboard and palm rests. Pioneered with the PowerBook 100 and 500. Others copied this basic formula. For example, ThinkPads relied on that little rubber eraser button.
Laser printing (networked) - first affordable laser printer. Bootstrapped Adobe.
WIMP (Windows, Icons, Menus, Pointing Device) paradigm popularized with Lisa and then the Mac. Much different than the original PARC Alto stuff that Apple licensed. All computers are more like Apple's vision than PARC's.
iPod (copied by Zune). iPod was the first widely accepted mass market MP3 player. Apple had the right combination of features, pricing, etc. And the following...
iTunes/iTunes Store (copied by Zune Marketplace)
3.5 Diskette (Sony technology first on the Mac). Apple was the first to use Sony's new floppy disk replacement.
Apple Store and Genius Bar (now blatantly ripped off by Microsoft - "Guru or Answer Bar" - Whole concept for Apple Store was exactly copied by Microsoft. Even down to the store opening events.)
Mac App Store is being copied by Microsoft Windows 8 App Store - Microsoft even wants to use the Apple's trademarked name of "App". Microsoft programs were never called "Apps".
iPhone - Entirely new paradigm for smart phones. Android (because of their mole on the BOD, ripped off the entire look-and-feel - lawsuits are still pending). At least MS had the guts to try to come up with something different for Win Phone 7.
iPad - First again. Major paradigm change. Others are trying to catch up. Microsoft did try something earlier with "Pen Computing" but that kind of fizzled.
Real fonts - No other mass market personal computer had installable fonts prior to Lisa and Mac.
Bitmapped screen instead of character cell based.
First computer with USB ports - hot swappable peripherals first on the new iMac
AppleLink - first online support and email service from a computer company. Graphical user-interface circa 1986.
The original AOL service came from Apple's AppleLink Personal Edition, which came from AppleLink. Of course this all predated the web. Of course, AOL eventually sucked, but at the time that was all there was (except for GEnie).
Multi-forked filing system (Data and resource forks)
Long file names with spaces and special chars (instead of 8.3).
Typed Icons (Creator codes) - click on a document and OS knows what app to launch.
Desk accessories - originally copied by MS. - Now called Widgets in OS X. MS calls their later copy "Gadgets".
Drag and Drop - Drag a document onto an application and the app launches and opens the document.
Plug and Play
Sound built in (instead of 3rd party SoundBlaster stuff)
Speech part of OS - MacinTalk
Desktop Publishing - Apple really invented this market and term.
Wysiwyg
HyperCard - first real hypermedia system with links, programming, object-orient which predated and foretold the Web. Also predated Visual Basic by 4 years.
Copy/Cut/Paste/Clipboard - everyone is familiar with this. First on a Mac.
Memory Modules - SIMMS instead of separate chips. First on a Mac.
Labels on files (with colors too) - First on a Mac, later copied by MS.
Multi-monitor support - 1987 with Mac II - zero config
Zero config bus - NuBus on the Mac II (didn't have to set IRQs and dip switches like PCs)
32-bit computing - 1989 (1993 for NT)
64-bit computing standard, not an option
I believe the Mac was the first computer with DSP and Sound input ports
Built in Ethernet (not an add-in card)
First with Thunderbolt
Publish and Subscribe (Microsoft "borrowed" this and it became OLE)
TrueType fonts (licensed to Microsoft)
Balloon help (you know how you put the pointer over something and a little caption pops up? Apple did it first, MS did it later.)
Multimedia - Apple created the term, imagine that.
QuickTime graphics media OS Architecture - 1991 part of the OS. Microsoft's competing technology—Video for Windows—
employed several thousand lines of allegedly stolen Quicktime source code and did not appear until November 1992.
First dockable Laptop 1992 PB Duo (aka port replicators)
ColorSync - making sure color monitors and printers matched. Ported to Windows afterwards (ICM).
CD-ROM built-in to the computer - First on the Mac in 1994
Hierarchial pull-down menus and those little rotating triangles to display a folder's contents in list view.
TCP/IP Support built into OS
FireWire (IEEE 1394) - Apple invented it, turned it over to IEEE. Being replaced by USB and Thunderbolt.
Popup and spring loaded folders
Wi-Fi / AirPort (aka WiFi hardware and software - Developed by WECA (Lucent) but Apple implemented the technology first in July 1999 with all of their iBooks). Apple's support helped to standardize the technology and others quickly adopted it.
QuickTime VR panoramas - Apple was first (now copied by MS Photosynth)
Auto-configured networks (AppleTalk), Plug and Play
Microsoft Excel - first on the Mac, 2 years prior to Windows.
Spotlight - full text and contextual searching of files and contents of files (MS eventually did Windows Search)
Time Machine (hardware and software) - Will be ripped off by MS in Win 8 and called History Vault.
Sticky Notes
First computer with multi-touch trackpad (i.e. one finger moves pointer, two fingers scrolls window contents).
Apple pioneered, developed or popularized the following technologies. In most cases, Microsoft copied it. Taken in-whole, these advancements pretty much define our modern personal computer of today.
Personal Computing - Not the first personal computer, but the Apple I and II made personal computing happen. TRS-80 and PET were runner-ups.
Modern Laptop Layout - Apple was the first to nail the basic design of all laptops sold today with trackpad in front of keyboard and palm rests. Pioneered with the PowerBook 100 and 500. Others copied this basic formula. For example, ThinkPads relied on that little rubber eraser button.
Laser printing (networked) - first affordable laser printer. Bootstrapped Adobe.
WIMP (Windows, Icons, Menus, Pointing Device) paradigm popularized with Lisa and then the Mac. Much different than the original PARC Alto stuff that Apple licensed. All computers are more like Apple's vision than PARC's.
iPod (copied by Zune). iPod was the first widely accepted mass market MP3 player. Apple had the right combination of features, pricing, etc. And the following...
iTunes/iTunes Store (copied by Zune Marketplace)
3.5 Diskette (Sony technology first on the Mac). Apple was the first to use Sony's new floppy disk replacement.
Apple Store and Genius Bar (now blatantly ripped off by Microsoft - "Guru or Answer Bar" - Whole concept for Apple Store was exactly copied by Microsoft. Even down to the store opening events.)
Mac App Store is being copied by Microsoft Windows 8 App Store - Microsoft even wants to use the Apple's trademarked name of "App". Microsoft programs were never called "Apps".
iPhone - Entirely new paradigm for smart phones. Android (because of their mole on the BOD, ripped off the entire look-and-feel - lawsuits are still pending). At least MS had the guts to try to come up with something different for Win Phone 7.
iPad - First again. Major paradigm change. Others are trying to catch up. Microsoft did try something earlier with "Pen Computing" but that kind of fizzled.
Real fonts - No other mass market personal computer had installable fonts prior to Lisa and Mac.
Bitmapped screen instead of character cell based.
First computer with USB ports - hot swappable peripherals first on the new iMac
AppleLink - first online support and email service from a computer company. Graphical user-interface circa 1986.
The original AOL service came from Apple's AppleLink Personal Edition, which came from AppleLink. Of course this all predated the web. Of course, AOL eventually sucked, but at the time that was all there was (except for GEnie).
Multi-forked filing system (Data and resource forks)
Long file names with spaces and special chars (instead of 8.3).
Typed Icons (Creator codes) - click on a document and OS knows what app to launch.
Desk accessories - originally copied by MS. - Now called Widgets in OS X. MS calls their later copy "Gadgets".
Drag and Drop - Drag a document onto an application and the app launches and opens the document.
Plug and Play
Sound built in (instead of 3rd party SoundBlaster stuff)
Speech part of OS - MacinTalk
Desktop Publishing - Apple really invented this market and term.
Wysiwyg
HyperCard - first real hypermedia system with links, programming, object-orient which predated and foretold the Web. Also predated Visual Basic by 4 years.
Copy/Cut/Paste/Clipboard - everyone is familiar with this. First on a Mac.
Memory Modules - SIMMS instead of separate chips. First on a Mac.
Labels on files (with colors too) - First on a Mac, later copied by MS.
Multi-monitor support - 1987 with Mac II - zero config
Zero config bus - NuBus on the Mac II (didn't have to set IRQs and dip switches like PCs)
32-bit computing - 1989 (1993 for NT)
64-bit computing standard, not an option
I believe the Mac was the first computer with DSP and Sound input ports
Built in Ethernet (not an add-in card)
First with Thunderbolt
Publish and Subscribe (Microsoft "borrowed" this and it became OLE)
TrueType fonts (licensed to Microsoft)
Balloon help (you know how you put the pointer over something and a little caption pops up? Apple did it first, MS did it later.)
Multimedia - Apple created the term, imagine that.
QuickTime graphics media OS Architecture - 1991 part of the OS. Microsoft's competing technology—Video for Windows—
employed several thousand lines of allegedly stolen Quicktime source code and did not appear until November 1992.
First dockable Laptop 1992 PB Duo (aka port replicators)
ColorSync - making sure color monitors and printers matched. Ported to Windows afterwards (ICM).
CD-ROM built-in to the computer - First on the Mac in 1994
Hierarchial pull-down menus and those little rotating triangles to display a folder's contents in list view.
TCP/IP Support built into OS
FireWire (IEEE 1394) - Apple invented it, turned it over to IEEE. Being replaced by USB and Thunderbolt.
Popup and spring loaded folders
Wi-Fi / AirPort (aka WiFi hardware and software - Developed by WECA (Lucent) but Apple implemented the technology first in July 1999 with all of their iBooks). Apple's support helped to standardize the technology and others quickly adopted it.
QuickTime VR panoramas - Apple was first (now copied by MS Photosynth)
Auto-configured networks (AppleTalk), Plug and Play
Microsoft Excel - first on the Mac, 2 years prior to Windows.
Spotlight - full text and contextual searching of files and contents of files (MS eventually did Windows Search)
Time Machine (hardware and software) - Will be ripped off by MS in Win 8 and called History Vault.
Sticky Notes
First computer with multi-touch trackpad (i.e. one finger moves pointer, two fingers scrolls window contents).
- Joined
- 11 November 2003
- Messages
- 281
Really guys. Really? This is STILL going on? It boils down to die hard Apple guys and die hard PC guys debating which hunk of metal/silicon/plastic is better than the other. It's like cat people and dog people trying to convince each other which is best. There is no resolution. I am thankful to have Macs, PCs, dogs, and cats in the world. In 5 years they'll all be outdated. In 10years they'll all be obsolete.
I was fighting this holy war back in 1977 when it was Apple ][ vs. Atari 800 vs. TRS-80.
I'm sure in 10 years the war will still be raging.
All those innovations and how many were you part of? I think you might have just qualified for fanboy of the year with that list though.
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