New Autorotor CTSC checklist thread

[SaberX]

After reading lots of posts in the FI section here on Prime (seeing as I'm getting a new Autorotor unit), I've come to the conclusion that its difficult to get all the information in the right place. Additionally, as a result of this NOPI GB we now have lots of NSX FI newbies (myself included) and a new product with a few issues that are going to be in the hands of those newbies. A recipe for the same questions repeated ad naseum... here's my attempt at helping solve that and answer some of my own questions.:biggrin:

Find out more about my CTSC install/tuning story here

Autorotor CTSC 6psi OBDI

• Required pieces for install:

• 20w-50w synthetic oil (3.5-4 ounces) for the blower
• Some wire ties
• Electrical tape.
• Tube of RTV Silicone
• Roll of Teflon tape

• Recommended work to combine with install:

• Get injectors cleaned from RC Engineering you will need to get the "lower manifold seals" or an "o-ring kit" from the dealer as they are not supplied with the injector cleaning.
• New fuel filter and washers
• New plugs installed (come with the kit)
• Check fuel pressure at idle (~36-44psi) and on full boost (~90psi) to ensure within safe levels CTSC Fuel Pressure Info
• Dyno to ensure engine correct A/F (11.1-11.7 is what Comptech expects with a hot engine under full load at WOT through the rpm band) and check power gains ~50-100 rwhp addition
• No new gauges required as the engine shouldn't run that far beyond spec.

Approximate install costs
According to Comptech USA, installation takes 11hours +/-
11 hours X $80 rate per hour. $880 for installation alone, tunning and dyno time extra.

General concerns - 6psi w/ stock ECU:

• Detonation at high rpm, cold starts and cold weather - It appears that *some* members with the Autorotor experienced detonation at high rpm (7,500), cold temperatures and when the engine is also cold. However, with Comptech's replacement of EMS to ACM, all these issues went away once the car was "warmed up". Unfortunately, there is no good definition of when the engine is "warm" - Mike (dynomike - Autowaveinc.com) suggests that the intake charge needs to be hot enough for the stock ECU to retard timing. Of course, you should run the highest available unleaded Octane gas 91+ that you can get your hands on. To prevent detonation on the track it is recommened to run a mixture of unleaded race gas and keep cooling at a maximum. Will there be issues with really cold starts of the engine, i.e. - below freezing? Is there any amount of "tunability" with the upgrade from EMS to ACM with the stock ECU?
  
• Overheating - Even though there aren't any confirmed overheating incidents with the new Autorotor unit its safe to assume that under certain conditions the increased charge temperature may cause engine overheating. Since it is winter and there aren't any new units being run on the track yet, we don't have any solid data to confirm this. However, because of the effciency of the new AutoRotor units temperatures will be (15-20 degrees cooler) than the Wipple blower. There are many good posts about how to deal with overheating in the NSX, we'll see how the Autorotor holds up on the track. I'll be tracking mine this summer, so I'll be reporting back my experiences.
  
• The post install DYNO Run - Expect anywhere from 50-100 HP gain depending on supporting mods, motor strength and displacement (3.0 vs 3.2). The ideal A/F ratio is what needs to be monitored here. A range of 11.1-11.7 is what Comptech expects with a hot engine under full load at WOT through the rpm band. However, it should never get leaner than 12.5 under these conditions. DDoziers post below gives some more detailed info on A/F in general. Also watch how the A/F changes over the RPM band- sharp spikes towards leanness could indicate an issue. Keep in mind this reading may look much leaner if is taken from the tailpipe. You should also review the fuel pressure information from above at this time.

Autorotor CTSC Hi boost

• Required upgrades with install:

• Larger injectors - RC 550cc
• New plugs
• Walbro fuel pump
• New fuel filter
• AEM with properly tuned fuel maps
• AEM FPR or reinstall OEM FPR
• Wideband O2
• Cockpit gauges (oil temp, pressure, boost, A/F, EGT?)
  
  Approximate cost/part list for the Hi-Boost upgrade

General concerns:

• Tuning AEM- Tuning is a delicate art and while the rewards are great, so are the risks. Go too aggressive and BOOM.
• Overheating - I assume the same will hold true from above.

 

[DDozier]

--The post install DYNO Run - Expect anywhere from 50-100 HP gain depending on supporting mods, motor strength and displacement (3.0 vs 3.2). The ideal A/F ratio is what needs to be monitored here. A range of 11.1-11.7 is what Comptech expects. However, it should never get leaner than 13.1. (is this number correct!!?). Also watch how the A/F changes over the RPM band- sharp spikes towards leanness could indicate an issue. Keep in mind this reading may look much leaner if is taken from the tailpipe.

Just to make things a little clearer, 11.1-11.7 is what Comptech views to be safe AFR once the engine has been brought up to temp, these are not necessarily Ideal AFR's. These numbers are measured at full load while on boost. Under these conditions the AFR should never go leaner than 12.5:1, 13:1 under full load is way to lean and will cause problems. However when the engine is not under load, say putting along at 60mph on the highway or at idle, your AFR will be much higher like 15:1. When looking at AFR numbers the key is what the AFRs are in a given load and RPM range. If the car idled at 11.1 it would be way to rich and you can end up washing down the cylinder walls and contaminating the oil. So the moral to my rambling is there is more to pay attention to than just the AFR at wide open throttle.

Dave

 

[LJSB]

New plugs came with the kit.
I and no one else who has been in, around my car can hear detonation from my Auto rotor CTSC 1996 even here in the cold NE.

If you want the Gospel look in the new Testament of the Bible.

Good, valuable information can be found here on Prime.
There also exists a large peanut gallery full of clucking hens and empty barrels.
Some have the benefits of a good education are articulate, well spoken and wield a impressive vocabulary. They cull information from various sources and regurgitate it at will.
Now figure out who knows what and who can't find their behind with both hands. :wink:

 

[NSX-Tuner]

General concerns - 6psi w/ stock ECU:
--Detonation at high rpm, cold starts and cold weather - It appears that *some* members with the Autorotor experienced detonation at high rpm (7,500), cold temperatures and when the engine is also cold. Unfortunately, there is no good definition of when the engine is "warm" - Mike (dynomike - Autowaveinc.com) suggests that the intake charge needs to be hot enough for the stock ECU to retard timing. ...

As I have noted in a couple of ealier posts, CT was able to eliminate the pinging issue when they replaced the ESM on my '05 with the ACM and tuned the fuel mapping. I've run my car in cold weather (low 40's... okay cold maybe for CA ) since then and haven't had any issues. I'm running straight 91 octane pump gas. I also properly warm up car (5 minutes of driving) before doing any hard acceleration.

--Overheating - Even though there aren't any confirmed overheating incidents with the new Autorotor unit its safe to assume that under certain conditions the increased charge temperature may cause engine overheating. Since it is winter and there aren't any new units being run on the track yet, we don't have any solid data to confirm this. There are many good posts about how to deal with overheating in the NSX, we'll see how the Autorotor holds up on the track. I'll be tracking mine this summer, so I'll be reporting back my experiences.

According to CT, the new Autorotor blower has a lower charge temperature (15-20 degrees cooler) than the Wipple blower. This is because the Autorotor turns at a lower RPM to make the same boost the Whipple does at a higher RPM. The Autorotor is also less restrictive internally.

Just to make things a little clearer, 11.1-11.7 is what Comptech views to be safe AFR once the engine has been brought up to temp, these are not necessarily Ideal AFR's. These numbers are measured at full load while on boost. Under these conditions the AFR should never go leaner than 12.5:1, 13:1 under full load is way to lean and will cause problems. However when the engine is not under load, say putting along at 60mph on the highway or at idle, your AFR will be much higher like 15:1. When looking at AFR numbers the key is what the AFRs are in a given load and RPM range. If the car idled at 11.1 it would be way to rich and you can end up washing down the cylinder walls and contaminating the oil. So the moral to my rambling is there is more to pay attention to than just the AFR at wide open throttle.

Dave

I thought that under normal operating conditions that aren't under boost conditions, the OEM ECU runs in close-loop, maintaining factory AFRs. This is what Shad at CT explained to me.

 

[DDozier]

I thought that under normal operating conditions that aren't under boost conditions, the OEM ECU runs in close-loop, maintaining factory AFRs. This is what Shad at CT explained to me.

Yes it is running on an OEM fuel map but you have changed your fuel system from stock, your base fuel pressure and the rate that the fuel pressure builds is no longer the same as when OEM, so while you are running the factory map your fuel pressures are not the same at any given load, that means the AFR's are not the same as OEM. How far off they are is something that would have to be logged to find out.

Dave

 

[NSX-Tuner]

Yes it is running on an OEM fuel map but you have changed your fuel system from stock, your base fuel pressure and the rate that the fuel pressure builds is no longer the same as when OEM, so while you are running the factory map your fuel pressures are not the same at any given load, that means the AFR's are not the same as OEM. How far off they are is something that would have to be logged to find out.

Dave

Yesterday, I spoke with Billy at CT about AFR's and OEM fuel map verses the ACM fuel map. He said that when the OEM ECU is in close-loop, the OEM fuel map is used. The ACM's fuel map only takes affect when in boost conditions. So at idle or at cruising speed, the OEM fuel map is utilized by the ECU, not the ACM's fuel map. For instance, if I'm cruising at 60 MPH at 2500 RPM and roll up from 20-50% throttle, the ECU will remain in close-loop until the load threshold exceeds close-loop conditions. The ACM's fuel map is only utilized when ECU is in open-loop.

Fuel pressures are handle the same way. If ECU is in close-loop, fuel pressure looks the same as it would be for stock. If ECU goes into open-loop (going into boost), fuel pressure is increased to maintain AFR.

 

[LJSB]

Re: New Auto rotor CTSC checklist thread

I have a DEFI fuel pressure gauge in my car and I had it before I installed the Auto Rotor CTSC. I also have a DEFI boost gauge.
When not under boost, the fuel pressure readings are exactly the same as they were before the CTSC install. The suggestion about fuel pressure not being the same at any given load are not what I am seeing. Most of the time the way I drive the vehicle, the same as I always have, it is reads the same as before. It sits right around 43 psi and varies very little depending on how hard I accelerate.
Lay it down, get some boost and then it climbs very high and fast, peaking just about 90 psi. Can't watch too close at that point because I run out of real estate.:smile:

BTW I have put a extra bung pre-cat and plan on installing a AEM Wideband UEGO Controller Air/Fuel Ratio Gauge soon. When that is in and up I'll get back to you.

 

[Wheelman]

Re: New Auto rotor CTSC checklist thread

I'm not sure anyone is actually running this setup yet...
Autorotor CTSC Hi boost- required upgrades
-Larger injectors (size?)
-New plugs
-Walbro fuel pump
-New fuel filter
-AEM with properly tuned fuel maps
-Wideband O2
-Cockpit gauges (oil temp, pressure, boost, A/F, EGT?)

I am..

 

[NetViper]

Re: New Auto rotor CTSC checklist thread

It sits right around 43 psi and varies very little depending on how hard I accelerate.
.

Mine is actually 51-53 with my setup.

 

[LJSB]

Re: New Auto rotor CTSC checklist thread

Mine is actually 51-53 with my setup.

Like you said, YOUR setup, which is a complete different group of components and while it is interesting, bears no relevance.
I'm not trying to be wise, I just want to make that clear, so in another thread I don't see someone saying: "with the new CTSC, the fuel pressure on some cars is 40-43 and some 50-53, fuel pressure is all over and it one of the problems Comptech has with the new CTSC".:smile:

NetViper, what fuel pump are you using?

 

[DDozier]

Re: New Auto rotor CTSC checklist thread

I have a DEFI fuel pressure gauge in my car and I had it before I installed the Auto Rotor CTSC. I also have a DEFI boost gauge.
When not under boost, the fuel pressure readings are exactly the same as they were before the CTSC install. The suggestion about fuel pressure not being the same at any given load are not what I am seeing. Most of the time the way I drive the vehicle, the same as I always have, it is reads the same as before. It sits right around 43 psi and varies very little depending on how hard I accelerate.
Lay it down, get some boost and then it climbs very high and fast, peaking just about 90 psi. Can't watch too close at that point because I run out of real estate.:smile:

BTW I have put a extra bung pre-cat and plan on installing a AEM Wideband UEGO Controller Air/Fuel Ratio Gauge soon. When that is in and up I'll get back to you.

Since the installer sets the new Comptech FPR at the time of install your base fuel pressure will be whatever he/she has decided is needed to get a proper idle AFR. Comptech has changed the FPR for another unit that has a faster ramping rate than the stock unit did to add more fuel pressure at a faster rate then the OEM FPR did, this is a good thing because the demand for fuel has increased with the addition of the CTSC.

Stock fuel pressure is 36-44psi at idle (aprox. 20lbs vacuum) and 46-53psi at no vacuum, quite a range. You can check your FPR to make sure it is working by removing the vacuum line going to the new FPR while idling and see if your fuel gauge reads 10-12psi higher (the car will begin to run rich until the fuel trims adjust for the added fuel). The ramp rate is affecting the area between the two readings you get when the vacuum line is connected and disconnected. This all happens very fast but it is happening. If they did not need a faster ramp then they would not have changed the OEM FPR. A secondary reason for replacing the FPR to the new unit is due to the size of the bypass orifice and the use of the boost-a-pump. The peek of 90psi is due to the boost-a-pump being added to the fuel pump when the car is in boost. The boost-a-pump doubles the voltage being supplied to the fuel pump and as a result it spins faster supplying more fuel. Just as a note of caution, your install is new so not likely to be a problem but as time marches on the injector seals will start to harden from the added heat and with 90psi you will see fuel leaks sooner than a system running at 45psi. Trust me I know this one first hand. I would add injector fuel rail o rings, cushion rings and seal rings to my service schedule and change them every 5-6 years just to be safe.

The FPR is controlled by manifold pressure so when under vacuum it allows more fuel to bypass the system via the return line and pressure is reduced, when the vacuum is reduced fuel pressure is increased by restricting the return line.

Load is based on manifold pressures as well, as the load increases the amount of vacuum in the manifold is decreased, and if you have FI the vacuum will become boost as the blower/turbo responds to the load placed on the engine. I hope I am explaining this well, it is hard to put in words and until I had the AEM and was able to see all this happen through the laptop connection I had a hard time understanding it.

So the FPR being controlled by vacuum and the load being the deciding factor in how much vacuum there is, if the FPR ramps faster than the OEM unit then you are adding fuel pressure at a different rate than the stock FPR, since demand for fuel is greater with the addition of the CTSC the fuel would need to be ramped faster in order to meet the greater demand. The only real way to know for sure is to find specs on the OEM FPR and compare them to the CTSC FPR, or bench test them both. But with the old whipple kit, when you changed from 6lb to 9lb kit one of the things you had to do was change the FPR again to one with an even faster ramp rate, as load with the 9lb kit was even higher so was the demand for fuel.

This process for increasing fuel pressure and adding fuel based on load is common in applications where the tuner does not have direct control over the fuel injectors/fuel map. The Kenny Bell SC kit uses this method as do many other kits.

Dave

 

[LJSB]

Re: New Auto rotor CTSC checklist thread

Since the installer sets the new Comptech FPR at the time of install your base fuel pressure will be whatever he/she has decided is needed to get a proper idle AFR.

With the stock 6lb CTSC Auto Rotor, Comptech does not instruct or expect the installer to alter or adjust the FPR. It should not be necessary.

When you start to alter and change the components, injectors, pulley, fuel pump, AEM. etc., (more go fast crack please) it is a different ball of wax.

The stock kit, out of the box, on the car, with what I have experienced so far, is well done. No detonation, no knock, feels like stock until you boost then it's hang on.
Very quiet compared to the whipple and seems to have more balls than the ones I have driven.

I think this kit is perfect for what I wanted.

 

[Sockeye]

DDozier,
Why not call comptech and tell them what there doing wrong, or get an autorotor ctsc and prove all the figures with youre own unit, or maybe not worry so much about the ctsc autorotor cars and either laugh when they blow up, or get youreself a new ctsc set up once thier dialed in.:biggrin:

 

[DDozier]

DDozier,
Why not call comptech and tell them what there doing wrong, or get an autorotor ctsc and prove all the figures with youre own unit, or maybe not worry so much about the ctsc autorotor cars and either laugh when they blow up, or get youreself a new ctsc set up once thier dialed in.:biggrin:

There is nothing to tell Comptech, what they are doing is all they can do without going to a standalone, maybe you misunderstood the purpose of my coments, I certainly hope no ones car blows up, I am only sharing the information I have learned form my own expeirences with the CTSC, whiple or autorotor the kit is what it is, a very well thaught out system, working within a box. I would love to make the change from the whipple to the Autorotor and have expressed that desire to Shad with Comptech, I am patiently waiting for the conversion kit from Comptech. My understanding is it will not be as simple as just changing the blower. Oh, there I go again sharing information I hope that does not upset you.:biggrin:

 

[DDozier]

Re: New Auto rotor CTSC checklist thread

With the stock 6lb CTSC Auto Rotor, Comptech does not instruct or expect the installer to alter or adjust the FPR. It should not be necessary.

When you start to alter and change the components, injectors, pulley, fuel pump, AEM. etc., (more go fast crack please) it is a different ball of wax.

I am surprised that the instruction do not say verify fuel pressure and adjust as needed to be in spec. Maybe this is being done prior to shipping on a bench to make the kit more plug-n-play, but the instructions do not say take your car to a dyno and check for proper AFR, and we all know how important that is to do. This is just part of what a professional install should include, if you make a change to the fuel system you should verify the integrity of the system after you made the changes, check the fuel presure at idle and on boost to make sure it is within spec. Then take your car to a dyno and have the AFR checked and verified to be safe.

Are these extra steps needed for the car to run, NO. Are they a good idea to make sure the car is operating as designed, you will have to decide that.

Dave

 

[KGP]

Re: New Auto rotor CTSC checklist thread

The stock kit, out of the box, on the car, with what I have experienced so far, is well done. No detonation, no knock, feels like stock until you boost then it's hang on.

I think this kit is perfect for what I wanted.

Awesome. Glad it's working great for you.:smile: Please let us know how everything goes after some track events.:wink:

 

[Sockeye]

DDozier,
Points taken and conceded to be the truth. I suspect my remarks had to do with the rigidness in which earlier posts by you on this thread were perceived. You appear to know you’re stuff and I of course am a bit biased because i have one of the first autorrotor installs and so far am to cheap to add the management system for myself.:biggrin:

 

[DDozier]

DDozier,
Points taken and conceded to be the truth. I suspect my remarks had to do with the rigidness in which earlier posts by you on this thread were perceived. You appear to know you’re stuff and I of course am a bit biased because i have one of the first autorrotor installs and so far am to cheap to add the management system for myself.:biggrin:

its all good, happy & safe boosting.

Dave

 

[LJSB]

Re: New Auto rotor CTSC checklist thread

Awesome. Glad it's working great for you.:smile: Please let us know how everything goes after some track events.:wink:

Track? Not me! I'm a poser.:tongue:
If I ever decide to start down that path it would be with a older BMW 3 series.

 

[KGP]

Re: New Auto rotor CTSC checklist thread

Track? Not me!

I'm sorry, I thought I recalled a post or two somewhere were you talked about tracking. My bad.:redface:

Okay, so some of you other autorotor guys need to report back...

 

[LJSB]

Re: New Auto rotor CTSC checklist thread

I'm sorry, I thought I recalled a post or two somewhere were you talked about tracking. My bad.:redface:

Okay, so some of you other autorotor guys need to report back...

Yeah, talking.

Hello mon ami, you wish to race with me?:biggrin:

 

[Bob Kenney]

Autorotor CTSC Hi boost- required upgrades
-Larger injectors (size?)
-New plugs
-Walbro fuel pump
-New fuel filter
-AEM with properly tuned fuel maps
-Wideband O2
-Cockpit gauges (oil temp, pressure, boost, A/F, EGT?)

I just read through the thread, it is a great discussion, It did raise a question in my mind. Reviewing the list items needed to go Hi-Boost I did not see a new [AEM] fuel regulator listed. I was under the impression that that the CT fuel regulator was a different "type" of regulator in how it provided a rising rate fuel pressure/flow and was not compatible with the AEM controller. The question I am posing is: will the CT regulator work with the AEM ECU or do you need change to an AEM fuel regulator when changing to AEM ECU?

Bob

 

[SaberX]

Just FYI, I've been updating the top of this thread to be as accurate as I can with all the great information you guys have been giving me. I know there is no Autorotor CTSC "gospel" - but hopefully it will give a good starting point for people in the future and prevent everyone from answering the same questions a million times.

 

[LJSB]

If you motor is in good running condition all you need for the CTSC 6lb Auto Rotor install is:

20w-50w synthetic oil (3.5-4 ounces)
Some wire ties
Electrical tape.
Tube of RTV Silicone
Roll of Teflon tape

Everything else comes with the kit.

Suggested:

Clean the injectors (Comptech or RC Engineering)
change the fuel filter and install new washers.

As for having the fuel pressure tested, if it wasn't working correctly, within spec., you'd most likely know already.

Here is the Auto Rotor install pdf.
http://www.comptechusa.com/store/media/instructions/NSX-SC-INST2005Autorotor_rev3.pdf

 

[DDozier]

fuel regulator listed. I was under the impression that that the CT fuel regulator was a different "type" of regulator in how it provided a rising rate fuel pressure/flow and was not compatible with the AEM controller. The question I am posing is: will the CT regulator work with the AEM ECU or do you need change to an AEM fuel regulator when changing to AEM ECU?

Bob

The Comptech FPR is a different type than the AEM unit, it will work, but it is another variable to tune around, the AEM FPR offers a more linear 1:1 progressive rate, while the Comptech unit depending on the spring installed, the size of the calibration washer and an air bleed setting will ramp at a higher rate. More info on how the Comptech FPR works is loacted here: http://www.comptechusa.com/store/media/instructions/FuelPreReg2005.pdf

When adding the AEM the AEM FPR is not required, the stock OEM FPR can be reinstalled into the car and used, I think the stock unit is a 1:1 as well, some issues have been raised as to the OEM FPR being overwelmed by an aftermarket HP fuel pump such as the Walbro 255, some have been using the OEM unit but most put in the AEM FPR or comparable unit. The AEM offers easy adjustability and a choice of return orifices to match the pump volume.

If the fuel pump can supply the fuel the use of the Comptech FPR with the AEM may allow you to get away with a smaller injector, but most would agree that an injector is better to be a little oversized than undersized, and if you are replacing the injectors anyway just get the correct size for the HP you intend to make.

Most are running RC 550cc injectors for highboost CTSC setups

Dave