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NHTSA is banning ALL HID "kits"

Joined
12 June 2003
Messages
173
Location
SoCal
http://hidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=613

Its about time, NHTSA finally decided to step in and mandate ALL companies stop selling illegal HID "kits" which are falsely advertised as legal conversions (or even offroad use only), selling re-based HID bulbs for use in halogen headlight assemblies.

Regardless of how they are marketed (offroad or not), a light must comply with FMVSS108 if its to be SOLD for automotive use. This should definately reduce the amount of illegal "kits" being sold.. and also cut down on the amount of glare being put out on the road.

The good news is, PROPER HID replacements such as the Sylvania XenArc and Hella 90mm HID components will still be legal for sale in the US since they have been tested and are DOT-compliant. This does not apply to the NSX community, since the NSX uses its own particular headlamp assembly.. but this is still good news for car owners who want to upgrade to DOT-compliant headlamps.

As for the NSX, this will definately effect quite a few companies selling these illegal halogen -> HID kits, since they DO NOT conform to DOT specifications. The good news is, we are still working on developing a DOT-compliant HID conversion for the NSX. Should anyone have spare headlamps and be interested, feel free to send us an e-mail. Doesnt matter if the headlamp is smashed or not, we just need to inspect the OEM design and internals.

- Mike / ClearCorners.Com
 
crap.
my poor, poor credit card.
 
Here is some EXCELLENT information written by Daniel Stern, he is a very knowledgeable lighting guru who has been a huge influence in the lighting industry for many years now:

"There's a lot of handwringing going on, and there's a lot of poor-quality information getting tossed around in the wake of the announcement that the US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA, the agency under DOT charged with setting and enforcing auto safety standards) is cracking down on the importation and sale of HID "retrofit" kits.

First off, yes, there are problems -- some of them very large and literally glaring -- with the US vehicle lighting regulations. The minimum performance standards for headlamps are pathetic, precisely-formed beam patterns are allowed but not required, red rear turn signals are still allowed, side turn signal flashers are still not required, do-nothing "fog lamps" are allowed and unregulated, etc. This is not to say there are no shortcomings in the rest-of-world European ECE regulations -- there are, they're just different shortcomings!

But, contrary to opinion of late, the HID kit crackdown is not occurring because NHTSA's regulations are antiquated. It is not occurring because of a words-based technicality (no filament in an HID burner so HID conversions are automatically out). It is occurring because HID "conversion" kits are, quite simply, the wrong way to do it.

Undoubtedly, those fascinated by the appearance of an HID headlamp (and others) will disagree, but here are the physical facts of the matter:

These products mainly consist of an HID ballast and bulb for "retrofitting" into a halogen headlamp. Often, these products are advertised using the name of a reputable lighting company ("Real Philips kit! Real Osram kit!") to try to give the potential buyer the illusion of security. While some of the components in these kits are sometimes made by the companies mentioned, the components aren't being put to their designed or intended use. Reputable companies like Philips, Osram, Hella, etc. NEVER endorse this kind of "retrofit" usage of their products. Other "retrofits" come from companies generally known for lighting dreck and schlock -- LED-wafer-on-a-bulb-base "retrofits", cheesy little foggy lites, etc. No matter...the problem with HID retrofits isn't a build-quality constraint; it's an optical-physics constraint.

Halogen headlamps and HID headlamps require very different optics to
produce a safe and effective -- not to mention legal anywhere in the world -- beam pattern. How come? Because of the very different characteristics of the two kinds of light source.

A halogen bulb has a cylindrical light source -- the glowing filament. The space immediately surrounding the cylinder of light is completely dark, and so the sharpest contrast between bright and dark is along the edges of the cylinder of light. The ends of the filament cylinder fade from bright to dark. An HID bulb has a crescent-shaped light source -- the arc. It's crescent-shaped because as it passes through the space between the two electrodes, its heat causes it to try to rise. The space immediately surrounding the crescent of light glows in layers...the closer to the crescent of light, the brighter the glow. The ends of the arc crescent are the brightest points, and immediately beyond these points is completely dark, so the sharpest contrast between bright and dark is at the ends of the crescent of light.

When designing the optics (lens and/or reflector) for a lamp, the
characteristics of the light source are *the* driving factor around which everything else must be engineered. If you go and change the light source, you've done the equivalent of putting on somebody else's eyeglasses -- they may fit on your face OK, but you won't see properly.

Now, what about those "retrofits" in which the beam cutoff still appears sharp? Don't fall into the trap of trying to judge a beam pattern solely by its cutoff! In many lamps, especially the projector types, the cutoff will remain the same regardless of what light source is behind it. Halogen bulb, HID capsule, cigarette lighter, firefly, hold it up to the sun -- whatever. That's because of the way a projector lamp works. The cutoff is simply the projected image of a piece of metal running side-to-side behind the lens. Where the optics come in is in distributing the light (under the cutoff). And, as with all other automotive lamops (and, in fact, all optical instruments), the optics are calculated based not just on where the light source is within the lamp (focal length) but also the specific photometric characteristics of the light source...which parts of it are brighter, which parts of it are darker, where the boundaries of the light source are, whether the boundaries are sharp or fuzzy, the shape of the light source, etc.

There are more "gotchyas" when pondering halogen-to-HID "retrofits". The only available arc capsules have an axial (fore and aft) arc, but many popular halogen headlamp bulbs, such as 9004, 9007, H3 and H12, use a transverse (side-to-side) and/or offset (not directly in line with the central axis of the headlamp reflector) filament, the position and orientation of which is physically impossible to match with a "retrofit" HID capsule. Just because your headlamp might use an axial-filament bulb, though, doesn't mean you've jumped the hurdles -- the laws of optical physics don't bend even for the cleverest marketing department, nor for the catchiest HID "retrofit" kit box.

The latest gimmick is HID arc capsules set in an electromagnetic base so that they shift up and down or back and forth. These are being marketed as "dual beam" kits that claim to address the loss of high beam with fixed-base "retrofits" in place of dual-filament halogen bulbs. What you wind up with is two poorly-formed beams, at best. The reason the original equipment market has not adopted the movable-capsule designs they've been playing with since the mid 1990s is because of the near-impossibility of controlling the arc position accurately so it winds up in the same position each and every time. There are single-capsule dual-beam systems appearing ("BiXenon", etc.), but these all rely on a movable optical shield, or movable reflector -- the arc capsule always stays in one place.

The OE engineers have a great deal more money and resources at their
disposal than the retrofit guys -- if a movable capsule were a practical way to do the job, they'd do it. The "retrofit" kits *certainly* don't address this problem anywhere near satisfaction. And even if they did, remember: Whether a fixed or moving-capsule "retrofit" is contemplated, solving the arc-position problem and calling it good is like going to a hospital with two broken ribs, a sprained ankle and a crushed toe and having the nurse say "Well, you're free to go home now, we've put your ankle in a sling!" Focal length (arc/filament positioning) is ONE issue out of several.

The most dangerous part of the attempt to "retrofit" Xenon headlamps is that sometimes you get a deceptive and illusory "improvement" in the performance of the headlamp. The performance of the headlamp is perceived to be "better" because of the much higher level of foreground lighting (on the road immediately in front of the car). However, examining isoscans of the beam patterns produced by this kind of "conversion" reveals *less* distance light, and often an alarming relative minimum where there's meant to be a relative maximum in light intensity. When you *think* you can see better than you can, you're *not* safe.

It's tricky to judge headlamp beam performance without a lot of knowledge, a lot of training and a lot of special equipment, because subjective perceptions are very misleading. Having a lot of strong light in the foreground, that is on the road close to the car and out to the sides, is very comforting and reliably produces a strong *impression* of "good headlights". The problem is that not only is foreground lighting of decidedly secondary importance when travelling much above 30 mph, but having a very strong pool of light close to the car causes your pupils to close down, *worsening* your distance vision...all the while giving you this false sense of security. This is to say nothing of the massive amounts of glare to other road users and backdazzle to you, the driver, that results from these "retrofits".

HID headlamps also require careful weatherproofing and electrical
shielding because of the high voltages involved. These unsafe "retrofits" make it physically possible to insert an HID bulb where a halogen bulb belongs, but this practice is illegal and dangerous, regardless of claims by these marketers that their systems are "beam pattern corrected" or the fraudulent use of established brand names to try to trick you into thinking the product is legitimate. In order to work correctly and safely, HID headlamps must be designed from the start as HID headlamps.

The only safe and legitimate HID retrofit is one that replaces the
*entire* headlamp -- that is lens, reflector, bulb...the WHOLE shemozzle-- with optics designed for HID usage. On models for which no complete HID headlamps exist, it IS possible to get clever with
the growing number of available products, such as Hella's modular
projectors available in HID or halogen, and fabricate your own brackets and bezels, or to modify an original-equipment halogen headlamp housing to contain optical "guts" designed for HID usage. But just putting an HID bulb where a halogen one belongs is bad news all around.

And *that*, folks, is why HID kits are getting targetted for enforcement.

DS"


Here is some more information:

"NHTSA *does* have authority over what are called "items of motor vehicle equipment", defined as replacement components subject to FMVSS requirements. The importation, introduction into interstate commerce and sale of items of motor vehicle equipment that do not conform to all applicable FMVSS, but which are physically capable of being installed on a motor vehicle originally certified as complying with FMVSS, is unlawful. This is enforced (selectively and sporadically, but it is enforced) by NHTSA and the US Customs and Border Protection Service. Civil penalties for any such importation, introduction into interstate commerce or sale used to be up to $1,000 per violation (one violation = one headlamp, one "HID bulb", one clear taillight, one non-DOT tire, whatever). In the wake of the Firestone/Explorer imbroglio, the max was raised to $5,000 with a maximum cap per violation class of $8,000,000 (eight million dollars).

It is a common but completely mistaken notion that there is any weight whatsoever to "Off Road Use Only" labelling on aftermarket parts. There is none. The term has no legal meaning at all, and offers no shield to those who import, distribute or sell noncompliant items of motor vehicle equipment. The standard of violation is "Will this item of motor vehicle equipment _physically_ fit on a US-model vehicle subject to FMVSS? Does the equipment itself comply?".

What has confused you is the fact that NHTSA does not have authority over *vehicles in use*, which are under the jurisdiction of each individual state. If you can find a way to get noncompliant headlamps, taillamps, tires, seatbelts, window glass, turn signals, sideview mirrors, defogging systems, etc. into the country and installed on your car, there's nothing the Feds can do about it. Your *STATE* authorities may or may not object to E-code headlamps, clear taillights, JDM sideview mirrors, etc., but that's up to them.

No rulemaking action or Federal Register entry would be required, by the way, as another poster opined, for this enforcement action to take place. The rules are already in place, and have been for decades. "

Daniel couldnt have said it better, this post really did a great job of summing up certain misconceptions.

- Mike / ClearCorners.Com
 
The points made in that thread are pretty misinformed. Plus, its in off-topic. Since this change will impact the sale of all HID kits, I figure it would be important to discuss this in the general forum.. since they definately pertain to the NSX (91-01).
 
So are their any HID kits for the NSX that will still be legal for sale??
 
I find the whole discussion very confusing (quite aside from the fact that it's split between two topics). People are claiming that the Feds are banning HID kits starting August 15, when it's very clear from the links (as well as the info, or lack of it, on NHTSA's website) that no new regulations have been passed. If anything, I suppose it's possible that they may be enforcing existing regulations starting on that date, but there are no new regulations going into effect at that time. Even if this is the case (that they are enforcing existing regulations starting on August 15), I have yet to see a link to any such official announcement. I wish that there were something more authoritative than copying e-mails from individuals (even individuals who are in a position to know).

I'm not saying this is not true, I am only saying that I would prefer to read a statement about what's going on on an official website like that of NHTSA.
 
So are their any HID kits for the NSX that will still be legal for sale??

None of the HID kits being sold for the NSX, or any other car for that matter, were EVER legal for sale in the US. The word "HID kit" is too generic, because there ARE HID headlamps which DO meet DOT specifications and are compliant. For instance, Hella sells optional headlamp upgrades for various german vehicles (BMW and VW). Sylvania offers a DOT-compliant line of products by the name of XenArc which replace the common sealed-beam headlamps with street-legal HID equivelents.

How does this effect the NSX enthusiast looking who is looking for optimal lighting? Well, if your 91-01 has been retrofitted with an HID kit (changing bulb, not headlamp assembly) -- the vendor who sold you this equipment sold you a product that does not comply with DOT specs, therefor it is illegal. From a lighting standpoint, you MAY have the HID system, but the way the light is managed through the headlamp assembly is sub-par. The lighting pattern is inherently flawed simply because the headlamp assembly itself is not designed to be fitted with an HID capsule.

This may be disappointing news for some of you NSX owners, but in my opinion it really is for the better. Being that I work on lights day in and day out, I have seen retrofitted headlamps and they are just NOT on the same level as an OEM HID headlamp. The ONLY alternative that should have ever been offered, should be a new (or modified) headlamp assembly for the NSX using factory DOT-compliant HID components (this means HID projectors, designed to use the D2S OEM HID bulb).

The route to attaing HID for your NSX may be more expensive and complex, but the performance will be unparalleled.. especially if you are picky like me about lighting pattern/performance. Again, if anyone has any spare headlamps (or damaged headlamps), please get feel free to e-mail me. We are looking to develop a DOT-compliant headlamp for the NSX.
 
nsxtasy said:
I find the whole discussion very confusing (quite aside from the fact that it's split between two topics). People are claiming that the Feds are banning HID kits starting August 15, when it's very clear from the links (as well as the info, or lack of it, on NHTSA's website) that no new regulations have been passed.

The laws have not changed, the rate at which they are being enforced has. Like I said, these kits have always been illegal for sale in the US. The "for offroad use only" disclaimer has never had much value, since the nature of these kits is to simply replace the stock halogen lighting source with an HID equivelent. This means, any lamp that has been CREATED for an NSX, that FITS an NSX, must meet FMVSS108. According to FMVSS108, there is no difference between OFF or ON road, if it fits it MUST meet those specs. Fact of the matter is, based on the amount of complaints from the public.. they are starting to step in and take action accordingly. This applies to anything from clear tail lights to headlamps, it doesnt matter.

Reputable companies like Hella, Sylvania, Philips, have no worries because they knew the law way in advance when selling and marketing their products. They never once sold an HID KIT, they wouldnt risk their company reputation OR public safety on that. The NHTSA is however, going after companies like Catz, Piaa, McCulloch, or any other company selling products designed to easily convert a halogen headlamp to HID by selling modified HID bulbs with halogen bases. Letters have been mailed out, action has been taken..
 
old_S13 said:
they are starting to step in and take action accordingly. This applies to anything from clear tail lights to headlamps, it doesnt matter.
Are they going to strictly enforce the laws concerning the "ricer" type tail light assemblies? Like the ones that use dim red-tinted brake light bulbs?
 
nsxtasy said:
Are they going to strictly enforce the laws concerning the "ricer" type tail light assemblies? Like the ones that use dim red-tinted brake light bulbs?

I am not sure what tail lights you are referring to. Personally, I am against just about ANY aftermarket tail light being sold.. they are usually pretty low-grade, BUT there are exceptions.. I have seen various wonderful applications offered by Hella. I have even seen some *acceptable* altezza-styled lights from companies like TYC, but this selection is VERY limited. The bottom of the barrel are products by APC, I simply despise them.

I am not sure if this answers your question or not, but this should definately let you know that these laws ARE being enforced:

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/nhtsa/announce/press/pressdisplay.cfm?year=2003&filename=pr21-03.html
 
This sounds like a load of *** to me. I have two cars that I've converted using kiits and i'm pleased with the results. The NSX took to the conversion extremely well because of its origional low beam design. When done properly, HID gives you more light in the same beam pattern as before and does NOT blind oncoming drivers.

Perhaps some people raise the position of their headlights in an effort to increase distance out of the HID low beams. In my opinion thats NOT proper. HID is ment to put more light on the road, but not to alter the beam pattern or give you much more distance from your low beams; thats what high beams are for.

HID's have always been illegal for retrofit. So are 100 watt halogen bulbs in place of 55 watt.

Will they enforce it? How? Will Police? with HID's being an option on some cars, how can they tell if they are factory or not? Most people would see an NSX and not be surprised that it has HID lamps.
 
Most people would see an NSX and not be surprised that it has HID lamps.

Just because the NSX is a higher-end sports-car, that is not to say it was born with HID. Find me ONE car made in 1991 that came from the factory equipped with HID?


Will they enforce it? How? Will Police? with HID's being an option on some cars, how can they tell if they are factory or not?

Cops will treat it as they've normally been treating it: sloppily. :) They will offer fix-it citations for the majority of offenders. As for NSX owners, it just depends on the cop, mood, and whether or not your NSX is equipped with 6000 or 8000k bulbs! I am sure that will definately increase the risk of being cited.. again, nothing more than a fix-it ticket.


I have two cars that I've converted using kiits and i'm pleased with the results. The NSX took to the conversion extremely well because of its origional low beam design. When done properly, HID gives you more light in the same beam pattern as before and does NOT blind oncoming drivers.

Not to step on any toes, but you are mistaken. If more light is all you are looking for, then I guess your NSX took "extremely well" to this "upgrade." You cannot look JUST at light output. You have to take into account many other variables that a normal human eye cannot easily comprehend. A lot of R&D goes into designing a headlight. Please re-read some of the topics written above to get a better understand between the two different bulb technologies AND how they are managed through the different light housings.

Anyway, from what I read.. the goal of this enforcement isnt to attack the individual, its aimed towards the manufacturers who are fabricating the product -- and the distributors who are happily selling such products.
 
mikec[/i] [B]Most people would see an NSX and not be surprised that it has HID lamps.[/b][/QUOTE][QUOTE][i]Originally posted by old_S13 said:
Just because the NSX is a higher-end sports-car, that is not to say it was born with HID. Find me ONE car made in 1991 that came from the factory equipped with HID?
You are assuming that most people (a) know what an NSX is, (b) know that the NSX was introduced in 1991, (c) can easily distinguish between a 1991 NSX and a late-model NSX, and (d) would know that a 1991 car would not have HID lights. I think your assumptions are flawed.

Personally, I will be more afraid of being cited for lack of a front license plate than for HID lights. And I've been driving without front plates for twenty years, so I'm not afraid of that at all.

mikec[/i] [B]I have two cars that I've converted using kiits and i'm pleased with the results. The NSX took to the conversion extremely well because of its origional low beam design. When done properly said:
Not to step on any toes, but you are mistaken.
Not to step on any toes, but I agree with what mikec said, 100 percent. The only difference in my case is that I've converted three cars, not two - all with projector beam headlights - but the results are exactly as he describes.
 
old_S13 said:
..... You cannot look JUST at light output. You have to take into account many other variables that a normal human eye cannot easily comprehend. A lot of R&D goes into designing a headlight. Please re-read some of the topics written above to get a better understand between the two different bulb technologies AND how they are managed through the different light housings.....
If the human eye can't comprehend it , then what's the big deal about??
 
PIAA has been selling their street legal super white bulbs, and they also have other variations that are not street legal. Vendors still sell them, people still buy them. Plus, all HID kits I've seen have an "off-road" only sign next to them anyway which doesn't seem to deter buyers one bit.

It's illegal in So Cal to tint the front windows and not have a front plate. People still do it. If HID kits continue to be made, I have a hard time believing that there will be no vendors willing to sell them to a consumer, especially if demand is high.
 
I'm sorry if this steps on your toes, but here is my opinion.



old_S13 said:
Most people would see an NSX and not be surprised that it has HID lamps.

Just because the NSX is a higher-end sports-car, that is not to say it was born with HID. Find me ONE car made in 1991 that came from the factory equipped with HID?

My Reply:
HID lights started showing up in the mid 90's. Audi made them an option in 1998. Since they were an option, there are identical looking cars with and without HID. They are options on Mercedes and other manufactures as well. The NSX was not just in production for one model year (1991). As far as I know, its still a currently available car.

Will they enforce it? How? Will Police? with HID's being an option on some cars, how can they tell if they are factory or not?

Cops will treat it as they've normally been treating it: sloppily. :) They will offer fix-it citations for the majority of offenders. As for NSX owners, it just depends on the cop, mood, and whether or not your NSX is equipped with 6000 or 8000k bulbs! I am sure that will definately increase the risk of being cited.. again, nothing more than a fix-it ticket.


I have two cars that I've converted using kiits and i'm pleased with the results. The NSX took to the conversion extremely well because of its origional low beam design. When done properly, HID gives you more light in the same beam pattern as before and does NOT blind oncoming drivers.


Not to step on any toes, but you are mistaken. If more light is all you are looking for, then I guess your NSX took "extremely well" to this "upgrade." You cannot look JUST at light output. You have to take into account many other variables that a normal human eye cannot easily comprehend. A lot of R&D goes into designing a headlight. Please re-read some of the topics written above to get a better understand between the two different bulb technologies AND how they are managed through the different light housings.

My Reply:
I am not mistaken. I have an 01 CL with factory HID, and the NSX compairs very well to it. I've done my own real-world testing by being followed as well as being passed head-on in both cars, and the characteristics are similar. I have never tried to convert non-projector HID lamps, so I can't comment on that. Perhaps other headlight designs do not do well with them, the my NSX and Audi did well.

Anyway, from what I read.. the goal of this enforcement isnt to attack the individual, its aimed towards the manufacturers who are fabricating the product -- and the distributors who are happily selling such products.

It is my opinion that you may have another agenda in pointing all this out, especially if you are designing a competative system and plan to market it.
 
I believe that most of the owners (For any car by the way) that get an HID conversion kit do so full well knowing that it is illegal and does not comply with existing laws. This new uproar does nothing to the end consumer. It seems to only affect potential sellers.

This quote
What has confused you is the fact that NHTSA does not have authority over *vehicles in use*, which are under the jurisdiction of each individual state. If you can find a way to get noncompliant headlamps, taillamps, tires, seatbelts, window glass, turn signals, sideview mirrors, defogging systems, etc. into the country and installed on your car, there's nothing the Feds can do about it. Your *STATE* authorities may or may not object to E-code headlamps, clear taillights, JDM sideview mirrors, etc., but that's up to them.

just proves that nothing will realy change at all. The only difference would be that buyers potentially will have a harder time getting HID kits, or it will just cost them more to buy one from the few overseas vendors who will still sell them online through sites outside the USA.

Like you have mentioned, it will be uo to local law enforncement to ticket you if they catch you using an illegal HID kit. The problem is many police officers themselves are using illegal aftermarket HID kits not only in their own personal cars, but their on duty cars as well. In my state the majority of police use their private vehicle for duty. This could be anything from a Camry Solara to an Acura TL, to any SUV. I've seen them all. I've seen police driven Camaros with at least 7000K range (Very Blue) HID lights. All told, enforcement of the users will not change one bit. Like Ken and others mentiond, how is the enforcer going to recognize and memorize what cars have standard HID lights and are legal and what cars don't and hare illegal retrofit kits? Who is to say from a distance if the Lexus GS400 has the OEM HIDs or the stock halogens with an HID kit. Same for the BMW and all other OEM cars that offer HID options or standard halogens.

In the end, those who want HIDs will get them, and this new laws or enforcement will just stop the average ricer from buying expensive HIDs and going back to the hideous blue coated high wattage halogen bulbs and buring out their wiring harness. I fully agree that there are a lot of flat out crappy HID kits on the market, but there are also some very good ones as well.
 
:mad: Regarding all these "craps", I just don't understand why people worrying about Glaring/ Blinding with HID... Most people can't even tell the difference between HID lights and those ricey HID lookalike bulbs... Plus, all those glaring and blinding, Tell me if you had never been blind by Stock Halogen lights before!! The STupid DOT rules "Let" Dealers and Manufacturer adjust the light to an unacceptable level. I said that because when we got my mom's 02 CRV, I already got 2 people flipping at me thought that I'm on highbeam... I wanted to adjust it lower only to find out that the factory put a rubber cap on the adjustment screw/knob and "suggest owner go back to dealer for light adjustment" Dealer bsing me telling me they will charge $100... I got so mad that I swear I would not even go back there even for oil change.

I'm even twice as mad when I see the new RX300 with that LED clear tail light. There's no hint of red lens even look at the light straight (before it's light up.) Yet, how many rice boys got ticketed for the Clear tail light?? I never like them but it just a matter of fairness.

Also, to all the vendors who looked at here, I got ticket for putting blue light bulbs (8 years ago, I thought it's pretty cool :D ) which I bought from Schucks auto store. They are also not DOT approved and "intend for off road use only." Thus I see them being put on police cars and motorcycles all the time.
What I'm trying to say is that if you ever get a violation for selling non DOT approved HID kits... They better sued Schucks, GI Joe, even Walmart for selling those non compliance "accent lights."

I'm sorry, when gov. start doing something "screwing" our beautiful life; I just can't keep my mouth shut...
If I'm ok with that, I might as well move back to China with Communists. :)
 
You are assuming that most people (a) know what an NSX is, (b) know that the NSX was introduced in 1991, (c) can easily distinguish between a 1991 NSX and a late-model NSX, and (d) would know that a 1991 car would not have HID lights. I think your assumptions are flawed.

Personally, I will be more afraid of being cited for lack of a front license plate than for HID lights. And I've been driving without front plates for twenty years, so I'm not afraid of that at all.


Well, we are all entitled to our own opinions. When I post my view to this topic, I am speaking from my point of view. Most of the people I know, know what an NSX is and know the vehicle has been in production for quite a few years now. I cant speak for everyone, but *I* know that the 91-01 never came with HID, it was only recently introduced in 2002. Why? Because I like the NSX. I am not preaching here, not trying to tell you guys the world is coming to an end, because that is not true. I am just saying that the laws of manufacturing and selling these HID kits are starting to be enforced, thats all.


Not to step on any toes, but I agree with what mikec said, 100 percent. The only difference in my case is that I've converted three cars, not two - all with projector beam headlights - but the results are exactly as he describes.

Well then, since you've installed not two, but three HID kits.. you must be very accustomed to working with retrofit grade HID components. Since you both seem very confident in your upgrades, lets analyze in better detail some of the wonderful attributes in upgrading to HID:

Originally posted by mikec
I have two cars that I've converted using kiits and i'm pleased with the results. The NSX took to the conversion extremely well because of its origional low beam design. When done properly, HID gives you more light in the same beam pattern as before and does NOT blind oncoming drivers.


Based on what MikeC said, he is pleased with the results. He says the NSX took to the conversion extremely well "because of its origional low-beam design." I am a bit confused, what does this mean? Is there such thing as an un-original lowbeam design? Last I checked, EVERY car sold in the US had both high and low beam, I am still confused on the use of the word original and how the NSX headlamps are ANY different than that of lets say, the 96 Integra. Mike's conclusion is that when done right, you get more light in the same spots without blinding oncoming drivers. I disagree. I am not saying that the kit is BLINDING to other drivers, especially since the NSX is so low. However, I am saying that if you compare the light created by a halogen NSX headlamp, and a HID converted NSX headlamp, you will see irregularities in the HID NSX headlamp.

To answer D'Ecosse, to the trained eye.. most of these irregularities can be fairly obvious. As for the average consumer, it really depends on how observant they are and furthermore, the type of vehicle has been retrofitted. Considering I have a good 10 or so different projectors sitting on my work-bench, I can definately say that projector headlamps in general are the best candidates when looking to upgrade to HID. The imperfections and glare are MUCH less than that found with most reflector headlamp conversions. BUT, this is not to say that the light created by these retrofits is OEM quality, because its not. If that was the case, HID would have been an option for some of the latter NSXes (prior to `02).


It is my opinion that you may have another agenda in pointing all this out, especially if you are designing a competative system and plan to market it.

Its okay Mike, I guess you are not familiar with who I am and what my business specializes in. If I was looking to make a quick buck, I would have offered "similar hid kits" long ago. I have known these laws LONG before, back when HID kits were first being introduced. I had the opportunity to join in and sell retrofit-grade HID components back then, I chose not to. Why? Because of the great amount of liability involved in selling a flawed product. Like I said, the fines are nothing new.. it just happens to be that the NHTSA is starting to tighten the noose, thats all.


The only difference would be that buyers potentially will have a harder time getting HID kits, or it will just cost them more to buy one from the few overseas vendors who will still sell them online through sites outside the USA.

Chris, you are correct. However, importing these lamps will also be much more difficult. Not the ballasts, but the MODIFIED BULBS. I wouldnt be surprised if things get turned back while trying to go through customs.
 
I'm even twice as mad when I see the new RX300 with that LED clear tail light. There's no hint of red lens even look at the light straight (before it's light up.) Yet, how many rice boys got ticketed for the Clear tail light?? I never like them but it just a matter of fairness.

The RX330 uses a tail light like no other, its a first of its kind. Why? Because its the FIRST production vehicle to use a clear tail light with white LEDs that illuminate red when activated. Well, technically we were the first to ever release such a product.. take a look at our 300Z lamps here:
http://clearcorners.com/products/nissan/300ZX2/R_full/

Just incase you didnt know, the lamps on the back of the Lexus RX330 fully complies to DOT-specifications. If you are wondering how, its because red filters are no longer needed with LED-technology, filters are OLD-SCHOOL. LEDs can emit different colors WITHOUT the use of filters. The ONLY catch with these tail lights, is that the back of the car must have a reflex reflector. If you look at the lower bumper, you will notice it has red reflectors -- this is the ONLY item needed to make that RX330 fully comply with DOT specifications.
 
Well, I have to double check our 2004 RX330, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't use LED tail lights. It appears to use a standard white bulb. The difference is that this bulb is hidden behind a silver reflector lens cap and shines through a red glass or plastic cylindrical tube surrounding the bulb. The red lens is hidden from direct view since it is under the silver reflector cap. When lighted, it still produces a full red reflected light off the tail lights reflective optics. At night with the tail lamps on you can't even tell it is a clear lens as it is all red. It may often look like LEDs because of the prism effect of the optics. As far as I know, the reason why those so called rice clear tail lights fail is because there is no RED reflector that is visable from directly behind and also from the rear side view. The RX330 gets away with this because it still has a red refector on the rear bumper that wraps around the corners so it is visable from directly behind as well as from the rear side.

This is also way some cars come with clear corners and are legal and other aftermarket clear corners are not. The front needs to have an amber reflector visable from the front and side just as the rear does in red. If you notice all the OEM cars that have clear corners comply with either a side marker and a front bumper marker like many BMW or other Euro cars, or a wrap around amber lens like what was found on the G3 Integra and G1 CL.

Also, the NSX does take fairly well to properly made beam pattern correct HID kit because the halogen projectors are actually quite good at controlling the light and has a really good cut off. Compared to my RX330 OEM HIDs, the pattern and cut off are very close with the stair step horizantal cut off, however, it is not perfect and still does show that it is a little less controlled than an OEM HID projector. With that said, it still is very good with an HID conversion compared to the vast majority of crap out there. Sure, it is not perfect, but I would bet it is still much better than the first HID equipped car that came out in 1996 which I believe was the Lincoln Mark VIII (At least in the USA). We all know how bright and blinding those lights were. Even the OEMs made huge strides in HID optics since then. By all means this is all just my opinion and I am not and expert any anything.
 
I looked at the RX330 in detail when I first saw the car, I was kinda confused as to why the light itself was fully clear. I paid very close attention to it while driving, and noticed that the lights had a very quick reaction time, typical of LED. I have not taken apart those lights before, but I then did research on the Internet and eventually stumbled over several reviews of the new RX, like this one:

http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/020302.html

which describe the tail lights as LED. Here is a quote off that site:

"The tail lamps have gone from something of a cat’s eye appearance to being much more integrated with the C-pillar, which has a character line that is flush with the top of the tail lamp. The tail lamps (LED lights are used) then meet up with the back window glass.

When I look at the tail lights closely in person, I too see the red cylinder.. which is quite confusing. BUT, I cant really place my finger on it just yet. Personally, I am going to stick to my guns and say its LED.. hopefully the articles I've read are not wrong! :)
 
old_S13 said:
Based on what MikeC said, he is pleased with the results. He says the NSX took to the conversion extremely well "because of its origional low-beam design." I am a bit confused, what does this mean? Is there such thing as an un-original lowbeam design? Last I checked, EVERY car sold in the US had both high and low beam, I am still confused on the use of the word original and how the NSX headlamps are ANY different than that of lets say, the 96 Integra. Mike's conclusion is that when done right, you get more light in the same spots without blinding oncoming drivers. I disagree. I am not saying that the kit is BLINDING to other drivers, especially since the NSX is so low. However, I am saying that if you compare the light created by a halogen NSX headlamp, and a HID converted NSX headlamp, you will see irregularities in the HID NSX headlamp.
I can't speak for Mike's car, and I am not going to respond to your apparent efforts to pick apart his words, rather than discussing his results. But I will talk about my own results with HID lights on three different cars. Quite simply, they look excellent. There are no visible irregularities (despite what you claim), and there is a nice sharp cutoff. They shine nice uniform light where the stock headlights shine light, only brighter. You claim that this cannot be true, yet you have no idea what components I have installed and you have not seen my cars or the results that I have obtained. Quite simply, you are in no position to judge my cars or make statements about my cars.

I agree with Mike; I can only guess that the only reason you are posting here is to diss other vendors and possibly to prepare for your upcoming efforts at marketing a competing product. Otherwise there would be no reason for you to make disparaging remarks about someone's installation sight unseen.
 
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