No new NSX? Hope fades after Uehara comments.

[MAKO]

I took this from Manuel's Japan NSX Fiesta trip thread, I didn't want to hijack it away from him and from others enjoying the stories about the party.

On to Uehara's comments:

Originally posted by Ben:
Regarding the conversation we had with Mr. Uehara on engines and horsepower, he asked why we wanted more power, and if we had more power, could we effectively use it? He believes that most drivers will not be able to effectively use more than the current 290 horsepower, and a V8 or more power would add weight and upset the balance of the car.

Let's read between the lines here a bit, which to me seems to indicate that there will NOT be a second generation NSX. Here's why I feel that way:

Uehara just told us all point blank that there's no need for more than 280hp in a sports car. Boom. Done. No 400HP hybrid, no V8, no nothing. It seems from that decidedly negative comment particularly when combined with Honda's CEO echoing the same thoughts two months ago regarding ever producing a V8 engine that it's not a possibility in their minds.

Ok so what about a hybrid V6 with more than 280hp in a future NSX? Well Uehara answered that one also in the first comment when he talked about 280+ horsepower being unnecessary. 280+HP in a heavy sedan? Of course he'd likey agree with the need there, because that's exactly what Honda is doing with the possible production DN-X. But 280+HP in a sports car? Nope, he mentioned it specifically. If he had just said that no one needed a V8 in a sports car, then I would still have hope for a hybrid V6 in a future NSX. But instead he mentioned the V8 AND a specific HP figure, and in doing so I believe he tipped his hand a bit regarding Honda's corporate philosophy at the moment. These comments seem to be a pretty hard peice of the fading NSX 2.0 puzzle.

In a way to me personally it's sad, but the truth is that the first gen NSX is pretty damn good, and if you spend about $10K in performance/suspension mods it becomes a true world beater. And once you've got a sports car that can hang with cars costing 3x as much, what's left to hope Honda gives you?

And besides, who wouldn't want a 360+HP hybrid sedan that gets 40+MPG in their garage next to their world beater modified NSX? Seriously? Or how about the other pretty much confirmed project Honda's working on which is a dedicated S2000 2-seat coupe (non convertible), with a larger 2.2L i-VTEC enabled engine? I wouldn't mind one of those for sure, might be a killer track car that you could flog endlessly.

While neither are substitutes for an all new NSX, they can sure help the healing go a long way, lol

[This message has been edited by MAKO (edited 23 November 2002).]

 

[Ponyboy]

FWIW, I think Honda is still committed to the idea and vision of the NSX. And although I wasn't there, Mr. Uehara's comments, I believe, may be a smokescreen as to what the NSX will be in '04. The horsepower philosophy is really unreasonable if the NSX is not lightened a bit. . .a lot. I hope this isn't the same hp philosophy they've been putting into their F1 engines. The Accord has went up to 240hp, the CL-S and TL-S are both at 260hp, the MDX is now at 260hp, and the RL will be at 360hp. That has got to be a smokescreen. I have to think that folded arms (nonverbal: "I'm not talking") and smirks mean that the next gen NSX will surprise (I hope in a good way) and be worth the wait.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Very interesting.

One on side this could be a typical response based on "tight lipped" Honda methods. On the other hand....who knows.

Maybe Honda should just develop their own, factory supported, "aftermarket" 100HP add on for our models!! And then allow us to decide

.

LarryB

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Ponyboy:
I have to think that folded arms (nonverbal: "I'm not talking") and smirks mean that the next gen NSX will surprise (I hope in a good way) and be worth the wait.

I agree.

 

[len3.8]

Next NSX a surprise? I hope so as well.
However, If the car is MSRP'd at what 82k +- a few K and selling at 72-80k.
How many of current NSX owners are going to go and spend the 90k+(I'm guessing) for the new one? Is it just a pride in ownership thing? I own a NSX, you know the new one has
400hp or so. Would they sell anymore than they sell now? At the current prices they sell for now, with that kind of HP it would be considered a bargain versus other cars that it would be up against. At almost 100k
they would be in the same boat that they are in now.
JAO
Len
n9s5x-t

 

[hyuan]

Here's a thought, if you were Honda would you sell both the DNX and the NSX? Is there enough product differentiation to justify this decision?

Here's an autoweek article discussing the possibility that the next RL may be the DNX:
http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_c ode=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=08879599

Why not just replace both the RL and the NSX (two low volume cars) with the DNX?


[This message has been edited by hyuan (edited 23 November 2002).]

 

[Jimbo]

Why not just replace both the RL and the NSX (two low volume cars) with the DNX?

How does one replace a 4-door luxo/sports sedan and 2-door sports/race car with a single model?

Honda has already said that the D-NX concept will be used in the next redo of the RL. That kind of makes sense. We already know Honda is reluctant, for whatever reason, to go to a V8. So be it.

However, I see NO way whatsoever that the next gen RL will replace the NSX.

Honda may kill the NSX (I doubt it) but there's no way they would (or could) try to combine the spirit or functionality RL and NSX in one car.

Here's what I believe the realistic options are for the NSX starting with the most likely...

1. Continue with the current facelifted car. The facelifted it for a reason and they intend to keep it around. They'll only make modest updates.

2. Number 1, but update the V6 with a slightly larger V6 with i-VTEC.

3. Number 1 & 2, but with some kind of forced induction.

4. Kill off the NSX after a few more model years.

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
1976 Honda Accord 5 spd, 3 door Blue/Blue
1977 Honda Accord - Custom - Under Construction
1986 Chevy Suburban
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

 

[NSXTC]

If they come to market with a car like that to replace the existing RL, that will be a much needed coup for Acura! The current RL is BORING with a capital B..…ask me how I know – I used to own one. In fact, IMO with the exception of the RSX, and maybe the TL-S, the entire Acura model line needs a major overhaul!

This is not to mention the big mistake their U.S. marketing wizards made in dropping the very cool and recognizable “Legend” and “Integra” names in favor a naming scheme that confuses most consumers.


------------------
All My NSX'es Live in Texas

 

[Jimbo]

The MDX is still reasonably current. But I agree with your comments on the RL.

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
1976 Honda Accord 5 spd, 3 door Blue/Blue
1977 Honda Accord - Custom - Under Construction
1986 Chevy Suburban
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

 

[naaman]

Adding more power does not require more cylinders. They could find a way to bump up the torque peak and the redline to 9 or 9.5. And if they did that, they could shorten the gear ratios without sacrificing top speed.

But why would they ever put i-VTEC in an NSX? Isn't it inferior to VTEC?

In any case, one of the most appealing characteristics of the NSX is that all of them are nearly the same. Even a person with a 91 doesn't have to feel like his car is obsolete. If they start making radical changes to such a low production car, people might feel a little gypped who have baught pre-owned earlier models because a new model was difficult to find.

 

[Jimbo]

Why would you say i-VTEC is inferior to VTEC?

With the "Intelligent-VTEC" system the camshaft angle is altered with respect to the crank. This addition increases performance and helps to reduce emissions and increase fuel economy.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/at_011205.htm

Why is it inferior?

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
1976 Honda Accord 5 spd, 3 door Blue/Blue
1977 Honda Accord - Custom - Under Construction
1986 Chevy Suburban
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

[This message has been edited by Jimbo (edited 23 November 2002).]

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by NSXTC:
IMO with the exception of the RSX, and maybe the TL-S, the entire Acura model line needs a major overhaul!

I disagree. Let's look at the models, one by one:

RSX - new model for 2002 - doesn't need an overhaul (but I sure would like to see them bring an RSX-R here, like they have in Japan)

MD-X - regarded by most as best in class among midsize SUV's, receives a power bump for 2003 - as Jimbo mentioned, doesn't need an overhaul

TL and TL-S - easily best value in class, since it has more standard equipment than ALL its competition (3-series, ES300, C class, G35), has more power (Type S) than most, and drastically undercuts ALL its competition in price. Styling is boring but that's de rigeur for this class. Doesn't need an overhaul (but 6-speed would be nice and should be forthcoming, since it has the same drivetrain as the CL/CL-S).

CL and CL-S - same as TL and TL-S. 6-speed is new for 2003.

NSX - Needs an overhaul.

RL - Needs an overhaul.

Incidentally, here are the YTD sales for each of these models as of October 2002:

RSX 25,798
MD-X 43,343
TL and TL-S 52,843
CL and CL-S 10,700
NSX 212
RL 8,262

Compared with last year, overall sales totals are level, with the TL and CL each losing about 5,000 units and the MD-X gaining 10,000.

Note too that they intend to introduce a new four-door model that costs less than the TL - essentially a replacement in the model line for the now-discontinued 4-door Integra.

Originally posted by NSXTC:
This is not to mention the big mistake their U.S. marketing wizards made in dropping the very cool and recognizable “Legend” and “Integra” names in favor a naming scheme that confuses most consumers.

While I was a fan of the Legend and Integra names, I am not sure that this was a mistake at all. Keep in mind that their purpose in doing so was to boost recognition of the Acura name rather than the names of individual models. They found that people said "I have a Lexus", not "I have an ES300" or "I have an LS400", and that gave more cachet to the Lexus name. They wanted to do the same thing with the Acura name, to give it the same kind of prestige as the Lexus name. I'm not sure but I think they may have succeeded in this objective, at least to some extent.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 23 November 2002).]

 

[hondaholic]

Originally posted by hyuan:
Here's a thought, if you were Honda would you sell both the DNX and the NSX? Is there enough product differentiation to justify this decision?

Here's an autoweek article discussing the possibility that the next RL may be the DNX:
http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_c ode=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=08879599

Why not just replace both the RL and the NSX (two low volume cars) with the DNX?

IMO Honda would not have invested in even this mild facelift and engineering enhancements in the NSX if they had plans to kill it.

I was speaking with a well placed employee from HRD at the San Marino GP and he said that they always planned to have the NSX for at least 10 models years without much change.

 

[Jimbo]

Here's a thought, if you were Honda would you sell both the DNX and the NSX? Is there enough product differentiation to justify this decision?

Of course there's enough differentiation. You can't get too much further apart from a large 4 door sports sedan (i.e. D-NX/RL) with a hybrid engine and an exotic 2-door sports/track ready non-hybrid car.

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
1976 Honda Accord 5 spd, 3 door Blue/Blue
1977 Honda Accord - Custom - Under Construction
1986 Chevy Suburban
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

 

[Russ]

Soichiro once said Honda would never stop making the NSX. Does his vision and influence still live on within the company? If so, that is good reason to believe there will be a next generation NSX, and it will be as special for its time as was the original.

------------------
Russ
'91 black/black

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by hondaholic:
IMO Honda would not have invested in even this mild facelift and engineering enhancements in the NSX if they had plans to kill it.

Which reminds me of a comment someone made in one of those fascinating casual conversations at NSXPO 2002 - of which there are so many - NSXPO is like being at NSXprime... but I digress - to the effect that the reason the NSX has soldiered on despite its dismal sales and the demise of much of its competition, is that there is someone at Honda Motor Co that is championing its cause. I don't know if it's due to Soichiro's commitment to the car, as Russ suggests, or someone else (more alive) pretty high up in the food chain - but I suspect it's the latter.

 

[NSX2398]

Are there any nuggets to be gained from looking at another Japanese competitor's strategy - Mazda? Much was written about the fact that both Mazda and Toyota lost brand attraction when they discontinued their high end sports cars, the RX7 and Supra. Even Ford seems to want to have the brand excitement (with the GT40) that an exclusive vehicle creates.

However, unlike Nissan who also felt the need, with the Z, to bring a 2 seat sports car back into their brand, Mazda has chosen to pursue a 4 passenger 'sports car' rather than return to the original RX7 format. I haven't spent a lot of time comparing the two but on the surface the RX8 and DN do seem to share some elements of target audience. At least I think Mazda is still considering reviving the RX7 as well and I'd be surprised if Honda would drop it's flagship.

------------------
91 Blk/Blk daily driver
100K+ miles & still going strong

 

[Jimbo]

I think it's reasonable to assume that the primary reason Honda continues with the NSX, is that even though it's more than decade old, it still functions well as a halo car.

They've already paid for the tooling and so it may make sense to continue on with modest updates.

They've updated the exterior, perhaps in the next year, they'll update the interior (i.e. sound system) as well.

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
1976 Honda Accord 5 spd, 3 door Blue/Blue
1977 Honda Accord - Custom - Under Construction
1986 Chevy Suburban
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

 

[Wadasan]

It basicly comes down to marketing and supply & demand. The easiest way to market selling cars is to have a flag ship car. It's been proven over the years by many foreign & domestic car Mfc. So, if it's what Mr. Uehara or Joe Schmoe said we can all wonder and guess, but to us whom are serious will be the ones puttin down the green backs on the deposit for that next Acura supercar!!!

 

[sjs]

Regarding the conversation we had with Mr. Uehara on engines and horsepower, he asked why we wanted more power, and if we had more power, could we effectively use it? He believes that most drivers will not be able to effectively use more than the current 290 horsepower...

Despite being true (and obvious), this is an idiotic rational for not providing more power. First of all, most new NSX owners probably never approach using the potential handling limits of their car. Is that a reason to give it the suspension of a Pinto? By contrast, even a total clod can occasionally stomp on the loud pedal in a straight line and impress himself (or herself) and friends. Very little talent required for that. Yes I realize that’s not what he’s talking about, but therein lies his blind spot. People who really do know how to drive the car can and will use the extra power, but even those who just buy one to look and feel fast want the extra power and will use it in their own way.

Refusing to give the customer what they want because you don’t think they are worthy is just plain stupid. On the other hand, he may just enjoy taking a little poke at the public (Americans in particular?) by stating the obvious without it having any bearing on the real decision making process.

 

[Redeye]

I dunno if anyone said this (sorry was kinda in a hurry and hadnt the time to read all the posts) but Japan has a regulation that all their production vehicles engines must have a max output of about 300 HP or less. THis is probably due to the high prices of gas and the constant strive to get better fuel consumption. If you notice most of the Japanese supercars (NSX, RX-7, Supra, WRX, 3000GT, Skyline), all have engine outputs of about 300 or less (the Supra and 3000GT here in the US had a few more HP, possibly designed specifically for US market.)

 

[NeoNSX]

i have nothing technicial to contribute to this discussion, but i want to make a comment... i feel the same as everyone else about the possibility of the NSX dying out.

I wish Honda would try to challenge the Lamborghini/Ferrari exotics... the NSX did

 

[nsx1164]

One observation is that Honda Japan and Acura/Honda USA seem to be worlds apart.

The Japan outfit is REALLY committed to its customers, to the point of making seemingly economically tough-to-justify decisions available. Examples include:
- multiple types of cars
- more options (HID, interiors, etc)
- custom order plan
- refresh plan
- special features: one NSX we tested had a wheelchair-bound driver; it used hand controls for accelerator/brake

US outfit probably does not have the latitude to extend such services to its customers.

 

[RyRy210]

Originally posted by Redeye:
If you notice most of the Japanese supercars (NSX, RX-7, Supra, WRX, 3000GT, Skyline), all have engine outputs of about 300 or less (the Supra and 3000GT here in the US had a few more HP, possibly designed specifically for US market.)

The beauty of turbocharged cars is that you can control the power by dialing the boost. This is exactly the case for the 3000GT and Supra. Also, in 1994 the 3000GT got an extra 20hp. All Mitsubishi did was change the ECU to give it more boost.

Originally posted by Jimbo:
Here's what I believe the realistic options are for the NSX starting with the most likely...

1. Continue with the current facelifted car. The facelifted it for a reason and they intend to keep it around. They'll only make modest updates.

2. Number 1, but update the V6 with a slightly larger V6 with i-VTEC.

3. Number 1 & 2, but with some kind of forced induction.

4. Kill off the NSX after a few more model years.

-Jim

The 3000GT is a car that got a facelift in '99 and got axed the same year. I know this is not true for the NSX since they've announced that it will return in '03, but it being axed is still a big possibility.

We have to put things in perspective. The NSX is 1st and foremost a japanese sports car, and I can definitely see it being axed here in the US.

The other Japanese sports cars that have been axed in US (RX-7, 300ZX, Supra, 3000GT) have stayed alive ALOT longer in its home country. They didn't discontinue it, they just stopped importing it here to the US.

I can totally see that happening for the NSX. Maybe it will get "axed" here, but will continued to be sold in Japan. When I was in Japan recently the NSX was still the car that every person wanted. That's in Japan though, and with this 280hp agreement going on, as far as they're concern that's the best sports car period. Maybe this is exactly their mentality, and maybe the car is what it is. Maybe to them its already perfect by their standards, that 280hp is exactly what they wanted, no more, no less.

I mean, most Honda/Acura's sold in the US nowadays are designed and built in the US. Most US models are different from the Japanese models that share the same name. The Accord is a model that comes to mind. The US model and the Japanese model are completely different cars. Honda wants to cater more to the US market, hence which is why they are doing this. They probably realize that their Japanese designed cars might not be suited for the US market. In any case, these are just some thoughts I wanted to share.

Ryan

------------------
2001 NSX-T
- Bilstein Shocks
- '02 OEM Wheels

[This message has been edited by RyRy210 (edited 24 November 2002).]

 

[LJSB]

Originally posted by Larry Bastanza:
Very interesting.

One on side this could be a typical response based on "tight lipped" Honda methods. On the other hand....who knows.

Maybe Honda should just develop their own, factory supported, "aftermarket" 100HP add on for our models!! And then allow us to decide

.

LarryB

Best idea I've heard yet.