NSX-R modifications & future values

[Patricio]

Dude, 7 of the 11 lap times you listed in post #89 were Horst's. Here's the list again, this time including the drivers:

7:52 BMW M4 (Horst von Saurma, Sport Auto issue 7/2014)
7:52 Lamborghini Gallardo LP 560-4 (Horst von Saurma, Sport Auto issue 12/2003)
7:54 Mercedes CLK DTM AMG (Horst von Saurma, Sport Auto issue 3/2005)
7:54 Nissan GT-R 2008 (??? Horst von Saurma's time: 7:38)
7:54 Porsche 911 Turbo 997 (Horst von Saurma, Sport Auto issue 5/2007)
7:55 Caterham R500 Superlight (???)
7:55 Ferrari F430 F1 (Horst von Saurma, Sport Auto issue 1/2006)
7:56 Chevrolet Corvette C5 Z06 (???)
7:56 Porsche 911 Turbo (Horst von Saurma, Sport Auto issue 5/2007)
7:56 Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale f1 (Horst von Saurma, Sport Auto issue 2/2004)
7:56 Honda NA2 NSX-R (Motoharu "Gansan" Kurosawa. Horst von Saurma's time: 8:09)

Oh sorry, well either way..... as stated, Horst's time mean nothing to me and never will.... To me I will only take the word of whomever has the most experience... Thus in Japan the NSX-R and NSX zero carry massive premiums against supposedly faster cars, they have to be fast and anyone over here or in germany, or you claiming other wise means absolutely nothing.

Here the most confusing part.... Your an NSX owner........ and your WELL aware every NSX has been hated on and doubted for 25 years. even normal NSX's over here outpaced much faster cars on American soil including the Viper on one review. many years ago. In 1990 it showed the automotive industry it was in the dark ages and forced all manufactures to smarten up. Which has brewed hate since day one with its meager numbers.

The built is NSX is still one of the most capable platforms ever made as proven by FactorX & Billy and Coz, and 1ktogo, and many others......

I can tell you this, I can only speak for myself and as as a previous 911 owner and still massive Porsche fan and current BMW owner and fan all my current and previous 8-10 cars are BMW's except the NSX... I am 100% confident my current amateur N/A setup would destroy a 996 GT3, which i have driven many times, and I doubt I have genuinely surpassed OEM NA2 NSX-R overall. I just posted a track video of me out accelerating a brand NEW M4 various times in different areas, and basically accelerating nearly as fast as a 997 GT3 and 911 turbo a few times in the straights in a lightweight NSX and pushing over 1G-1.1G consistently in all turns at respectable speeds and a few times over 1.1G peaking at 1.2G as evidenced by Billy's professional MOTEC data logger... in a STREET CAR with out any proper setup nor non-compliance bits and aftermarket 10 year old tein-RE Billy ran 1:41 at homestead with me (190lbs) in the car slowing it down that is knocking on the door of 1:35-1:38 new GT3 real professional race car times.... The NSX is extremely capable when weight reduced.. and your severely underestimating it all of a sudden. I don't know how more evidence of the NSX's capabilities there is than lightened average street car with professional data logger doing things many modern cars don't do.

Your just adding to the overall NSX confusion and doubt which is widespread.... which is very strange.... and pointless.. as previously stated what are you trying to accomplish?


Here is the video mentioned above if you have not seen it yet, watch the G-meter closely and see the times and areas when I'm further away from other cars in the straights, some places you can tell where people are on full acceleration on it.
Some of these drivers are not experienced so do not just simply watch who were passing there are certain indicators to pay attention to:
In these points in the video driver ability can be removed since its just comparing acceleration. and everyone knows even after you get a point by and they get off gas for a second... people still like to get back on the gas for a few seconds to quickly drag race you.
1:23 red 997 GT3 points me by, slowing down for me to pass... but then gets back on the gas (you can see his bumper in bottom corner drag racing me)
3:41 going on straight is there is a black 996 turbo up ahead already on straight with 500hp its not pulling much on me
4:20 me and the same 500hp 996 turbo both get on gas in full to pass for few seconds, i stop cause did not get point by.
5:00 both same 500hp 911 assumed on full acceleration
6:11 both same 500hp 911 of us assumed on full acceleration for simultaneous pass around other car

turn 10 is 80-100mph almost every lap is .9-1G sometimes 1.1G
turn 6 and 8 both constantly over 1-1.1G up to 1.2G many others.. over 1G turns as well.

lap times, data, relative acceleration, what else does anyone need to see any NSX's general capability?

Porsche and GTR lap time discussions. for reference
http://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-gt3-forum/637512-homestead-lap-times.html
http://www.gtrlife.com/forums/topic...emy-homestead-fl-sept-30-oct-2nd/page__st__80

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/fhOm7Tt6vQ0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



I'm black line 1:44 and billy is the red line 1:41.
There no better evidence than understanding this is very amateur N/A 3.0L only bolt-ons setup car, with crap OEM 5spd LSD, only handeling mods are a dali front sway bar and Tein-RE... You can only imagine what a real factory built and tuned NSX-R would do..

<a href="http://s172.photobucket.com/user/tiago3/media/Tiago%20NSX%20Homestead%20Data.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w15/tiago3/Tiago%20NSX%20Homestead%20Data.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo Tiago NSX Homestead Data.jpg"/></a>

 

[dablackgoku1234]

I think your scale is off as well. You are in the right direction, but the numbers might be a bit lower than reality...

This is what a 2500lb NSX looks like: http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/102736-My-version-of-a-2500lb-NSX

And a 2200lb NSX:

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/5nyVeqgoFa8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[stuntman]

When was an NSX faster than a Viper?

 

[Patricio]

When was an NSX faster than a Viper?

Sorry not faster but close, and it was a zanardi, still slower than NSX-R obviously.

https://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Media/magazines/rt9906.htm

- - - Updated - - -

I think your scale is off as well. You are in the right direction, but the numbers might be a bit lower than reality...

This is what a 2500lb NSX looks like: http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/102736-My-version-of-a-2500lb-NSX

And a 2200lb NSX:
allowfullscreen></iframe>

Simo did not have tein-re lightest suspension ever made -35lbs weight reduction,
nor 02 front conversion - 37 lbs,
nor a taitec GT009 9lbs exhaust INCLUDING the cat delete, that's allot lighter than a typical GTLW which does not INCLUDE the heavy cat delete pipe section. My exahsut is 9lbs total including the replaced cats as well. thus taitec GT009 is 14lbs lighter than GTLW & cat delete pipes
Simo aso was before the aluminum bumper beam mods came to light thats another -35lbs in my favor for both front and rear aluminum beams
Simo has the odessy batterty that is 16lbs i have a 3.5lb lithium battery that's - 12lbs (yes its lighter the shorai sold on prime)

right there is -133lbs that I have modified that simo did not, all the interior panels he removed including the caret weigh no more than 30-40lbs and I still have A/C which weighs about 50lbs..... thus equalling out ksimos car

CERTIFIED legal weight scale if you don't understand what that means nor are willing to look it the regulations and government monthly re-certifications than don't question it. truck scales that are "certified" are not just any truck scales as printed on my weight slip i posted. I used these for my business to bill people for years, there allot of literature regarding it. anyone saying the contrary without knowing the difference is being ignorant.

TWO every item detailed and measured and explained,

Three the track time representing major weight reduction

Yes i know the 999kg Madonna car studied in detail.

--------

- - - Updated - - -

Getting tired of this forum again,

I'm leaning towards another hiatus for the same reasons as before as many others have.

Better off being a lurker than trying to present another way of doing things.

I felt I accomplished something after years of progression, and tested it on track with details and data loggers and put it in black and white and have fully documented and weighed each item diligently only to be ripped apart.

Take care everyone.

my next post will be after corner balancing
Maybe I should get a notary signature and date stamped video approved by the NSA, maybe just go straight to NASA and have them test it, there only a few hours away..

 

[stuntman]

I have that magazine. They took 2 corners as "segments" that are ~10 seconds long. It's not a useful test and very far from drawing anything conclusive.

 

[Patricio]

I have that magazine. They took 2 corners as "segments" that are ~10 seconds long. It's not a useful test and very far from drawing anything conclusive.

FWIW:
Horst van surma ran a 8:10 in the viper
motor trend ran a 7:59 at nurburgring

Not saying its faster... nor to argue or defend my incorrect post... just bringing up the inconsistencies all over

 

[stuntman]

FWIW:
Horst van surma ran a 8:10 in the viper
motor trend ran a 7:59 at nurburgring

Not saying its faster... nor to argue or defend my incorrect post... just bringing up the inconsistencies all over

Yup, the journalist was 1 second off what he ran on a different day in the NSX-R. Can't really draw anything conclusive. No clue which one would be faster and it can also vary from track to track.

Now if someone wants to know for sure, and gets these cars together I would be more than happy to do the test

 

[nsxvtecvtec]

we all know that tires need weight to get good amount of traction. less weight means tires will get less traction if nothing else changes such as aero or spring rate. NSX-R was tested as 2800 lbs, and it has a good balance. Since OP's car is already 2500 lbs, it's better to focus on something else instead of power/weight ratio.

 

[greenberet]

Your an NSX owner........ and your WELL aware every NSX has been hated on and doubted for 25 years.

No I'm not – people love the car. When it came out, journalists gushed about it. I get thumbs up wherever I drive it.

Your just adding to the overall NSX confusion and doubt which is widespread.... which is very strange.... and pointless.. as previously stated what are you trying to accomplish?

I'm sorry if you feel my posts spread confusion and doubt. What I was trying to accomplish is for us to keep in mind what Honda said about the NSX-R, what the engineers who designed it said, what stopwatches and dynos measured, etc.

You probably won't want to read it, but Sport Auto's "Supertest" of the 2002 NSX-R is available online here. They loved it. You can check how much they say it weighed (1244 kg with a full tank), what acceleration figures they timed (0-200 km/h in 18.2 sec), etc.

If you want to estimate an NSX-R's power to weight ratio, you could look at as many tests of the car as you can find and estimate its horsepower based on the measured acceleration and weight figures (taking into account whether they measured the acceleration with one or two people on board, starting from a standstill or after a few inches of movement, etc.). Of course, that won't work if Honda's claims and supposedly independent measurements were all part of an elaborate international conspiracy that has recently been uncovered by the Japanese used car market.


Edit: Be that as it may, I think it's great that you're building a lightweight, naturally-aspirated NSX. That's got to be really fun to drive. I'm going to try to reduce the weight of my NSX and find some more naturally-aspirated horsepower, too.

 

[stuntman]

You probably won't want to read it, but Sport Auto’s "Supertest" of the 2002 NSX-R is available online here. They loved it. You can check how much they say it weighed (1244 kg with a full tank), what acceleration figures they timed (0-200 km/h in 18.2 sec), etc..

In case the link disappears in the future:

The Honda NSX-R in Super Test
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/supertest/honda-nsx-r-sehr-r-freulich-1041188.html

Test the Honda NSX-R on the Nordschleife
The R version of what is believed to Car Heaven NSX reveals talents that could the Honda Super athletes open up a better future. The NSX-R does occur further to 280 hp, but weighs just 1244 kg.
By: Horst von Saurma​

(Google Translated):

The Japanese mentality, so opaque it may be from a Central European point of view sometimes, reveals sometimes exceptionally likeable traits. The polite and reserved manner, combined with clever "How-how" strategies, is always good for amazing surprises. This applies to people from the Far East as well as for cars. The Honda NSX is such a case. That it still gives him may seem surprising given the low penetration and the extremely sparse intercession. Given its origin as technical equipment, it must, however, by no means.

Although the NSX has under his belt conceptual twelve years, it leaves in its current version is not the slightest hint of senility recognize. After all, this sports car has mapped out an issue before a decade, the elsewhere until today again the full consideration is given to: systematic lightweight - in this case, based on an elaborately constructed aluminum structure. The specific lower weight of aluminum compared to steel, it is not alone what gives this sports car with rare advantages in terms of weight reduction: The to mourning also in sportscar growth trend have the NSX-fathers resisted stubbornly and the top model of the Type-R series in its relatively modest basic dimensions left.

The NSX-R has not grown in its dimensions

Aside from the renovation work in the front, required by banishing the old-fashioned folding headlights in favor of the dominant Xenon ensembles as well as the relocation of the cooling duct outlet upward, showing the shape of the aluminum body in the R version only minor changes compared with the previous basic model. They aim, such as the front brake cooling vents, the fully enclosed underbody and the rear wing patch solely on an even more effective reaction of the type of construction already good opportunities this mid-engined sports car.

The not only by Japanese standards unusually high proportion of manual labor in the manufacture learned the R-model again a significant increase - from which even the high price of the equivalent of around 100,000 euros resulted. Front hood, door panels, center console and the filigree rear wing emerged from high-strength and extremely lightweight carbon fiber materials by hand.
The somewhat dubious reluctance to emphasize these and other, very typical NSX features, has something to do with the philosophical understanding of the NSX-fathers, after being ranked well ahead of the bill. No visible trace so of aluminum or carbon fiber material. So simply painted with neutral colors, what every other sports car manufacturer would head held high and aggressively flaunt. So it is no surprise almost that the filigree designed and built to the direction transverse 90-degree V6 is revealed to the public in such a prominent under his transparent metal mesh.

It looks nice, what's presented behind the bulkhead that separates the cockpit from the engine room with bright red painted cylinder heads. Technically, the machine has already no reason to hide from new designs. Variable valve timing and four valves per cylinder finally been twelve years belong to this six-cylinder to the status quo. The tacit agreement of the Japanese producers, in general to halt the free power delivery at 280 hp halt, however, interferes with the growth in a still very sensitive for the sports car segment. So it stays in the R-Type nominally in the previously already resources deployed 280 hp, the resourceful engineers complained entirely new areas of development for themselves.

The horsepower was not screwed up the Type R

Consequently, it was neither bored nor extended hub or otherwise taken a hulking measure, in order to increase performance. By contrast, all the parts were balanced, aligned all weights, tolerances and minimizes imbalances - in short, perfected the mass balance of the moving mechanism in all areas.

The already refined running of the V6 engine has been increased by these costly measures again clearly: The machine - connected by e-gas with the driver's - depends tremendously silky on gas, rotates completely vibration-free and leaves from the two dominant exhaust ends a sound of first warm coloring, which can pass at high speeds and full load in a very angry shouting. With its working volume of just 3.2 liters of naturally aspirated engine is not exactly one of those species that can draw on unlimited resources comprehensible.

The machine lives of literally speeds, craves downright thereafter, (/ 298 Nm at 5,300 rpm) to cover its basic weakness torque as soon as possible. She does this with flying colors.

Similar to a real race engine encourages the driver to figure out a way, the potential for addiction has - she turns, there's no tomorrow. The harmonious arrangement with the laterally flanged six-speed gearbox finally sets a performance free, which is extremely practical and therefore friendly as a result worthy of all respect. In 4.9 seconds of only 1.17 meters flat two-seater sprints from zero to 100; in 18.2 seconds from zero to 200. Compared to the base-NSX, as it appears in Super Test (Edition 8/1997) was conditioned, this represents an improvement of almost four seconds for the sprint to 200 km / h.

The stupid thing is: Nobody expects this temperament. In addition to the assumption that holds the finely tuned engine of the NSX-R only on paper obedient to the 280-horsepower agreement, the 300-horsepower hurdle in practice, however, know very well to take easy, a couple of other aspects come into play which prove to be very effective in result. First there is the perfect traction of this mid-engine sports car, in which 60 percent of the mass loads on the drive axle. The power transmission, including the heavy-duty clutch, demonstrates a high affinity towards the sporty character of the NSX-R without making however miss the smoothness in handling.

The NSX-R is very slim with 1244 kg on the scales

But the key aspect is this: The Honda brings with liquids on board (70 liter tank capacity) only 1244 kilograms on the scales, resulting in already can calculate a very good power to weight ratio of only 4.44 kilograms per hp at 280 hp adopted. The reduction in road trim mass by nearly three quintals compared to the base-NSX is accompanied by technical changes to the chassis and suspension, following the usual logic and so do the feedback result of the weight loss even more clearly.

The aluminum structure was made more rigid in some areas, as is the wheel suspensions. Increasing the front disc diameter to just 300 millimeters also had an increase in wheel size on the front axle to now 17 inches result. Likewise were the aerodynamic levers as far as they are opportune for road sportsmen being consistently exploited.

However, an important aspect in terms of driving dynamics quality of the NSX-R are the tires. Bridgestone adapted a special batch of high-compatible tires Potenza RE 070 type, which send clear signals not only with regard to their distinctive facial profile. Already in the first meters in Honda is clear whose brainchild is this dynamic driving Gesamtkunstwerk. The ride comfort is not an issue so far, as no one seriously expected him to this purist environment.

Air conditioning is of course no more existent as airbags or stereo. On the other hand the crew sitting in upholstered with Alcantara Recaro shells which, amazingly, take with all your perfect hold much of the hardness, which is initiated by the chassis in the extremely rigid body. Capers are not, which one performs the NSX-R. But well revealed the Honda healthy and essential tautness a designated expert in the field of vehicle dynamics.

This applies to all areas: ergonomics in the cockpit, operation of the steering stability of the brake, agility and directional stability characteristics and drivability on the limit - the NSX-R shows itself or just on the Nordschleife of the Nürburgring a level of professionalism that even with the secret Bestimmern the sports car scene is not self-evident. But the lap times are proof of his extraordinary talent: With 8:09 minutes for the round ring on the Honda deserves the predicate masterclass.

At the Nürburgring the NSX-R's masterful

The lap time of 1.14,6 minutes in Hockenheim is just an example of a driving behavior which, viewed through the sporting spectacle, nothing to be desired. In contrast to the basic model, which had to take criticism in the super test with respect to its behavior in the border area, the R-Type furnishes evidence that a fine line on the limit cause of the mid-engine concept is not necessarily, but usually a failed chassis geometry or a wrong tire policy.

The Honda NSX-R is in any case with the present setup extremely peaceful - both sharp gas use in the border region as well as during load changes, which usually bring great turmoil into driving behavior. Given this excellent idea, which moreover from the wrong - the actual passenger's side - had to be followed from, raises the crucial question: Why not the same as?

 

[tof]

we all know that tires need weight to get good amount of traction. less weight means tires will get less traction if nothing else changes such as aero or spring rate. NSX-R was tested as 2800 lbs, and it has a good balance. Since OP's car is already 2500 lbs, it's better to focus on something else instead of power/weight ratio.

Huh?

 

[Patricio]

"nsxvtecvtec;1877706]we all know that tires need weight to get good amount of traction. less weight means tires will get less traction if nothing else changes such as aero or spring rate. NSX-R was tested as 2800 lbs, and it has a good balance. Since OP's car is already 2500 lbs, it's better to focus on something else instead of power/weight ratio."


I'm sorry but this is inaccurate information.

I have posted current data logs backing up the current balanced setup that holds 1.1-1.2G's as proven in the video accelerator and professional Motec data logger print out I posted. That is more road holding than the NSX-R... seriously a 2014 911 GT3 holds 1.2G, this is a big achievement for street setup with OEM compliance parts NSX.... Ive been modding my car carefully and well balanced for 10 years that is the subject of my thread, creating a functional replica NSX-R or better all around, not just P/W....

the fastest cars in the world are 1200 to 1600lbs, elise's which corner on rails are 2000lbs, Many gutted race car NSX's are 2300lbs and running 305 rear tires and out cornering new Porsche/Ferrari.

Yes there is allot that goes into optimal tireweight, aereo and spring setups but your comment in general does not apply..... less weight will always handle better... and actually keeping the aero the same but reducing the weight means your using the same downforce as before to resist less lateral weight/force trying to escape therefore you now have even more traction

theres virtually nothing good about weight, if there where, then 1500lb radicals and ariel atoms that cost $75-$100k would not be faster than $2M bugattis and konessigns ect., and F1

Huh?

my thought exactly.

- - - Updated - - -

No I'm not – people love the car. When it came out, journalists gushed about it. I get thumbs up wherever I drive it.

I'm sorry if you feel my posts spread confusion and doubt. What I was trying to accomplish is for us to keep in mind what Honda said about the NSX-R, what the engineers who designed it said, what stopwatches and dynos measured, etc.

You probably won't want to read it, but Sport Auto's "Supertest" of the 2002 NSX-R is available online here. They loved it. You can check how much they say it weighed (1244 kg with a full tank), what acceleration figures they timed (0-200 km/h in 18.2 sec), etc.

If you want to estimate an NSX-R's power to weight ratio, you could look at as many tests of the car as you can find and estimate its horsepower based on the measured acceleration and weight figures (taking into account whether they measured the acceleration with one or two people on board, starting from a standstill or after a few inches of movement, etc.). Of course, that won't work if Honda's claims and supposedly independent measurements were all part of an elaborate international conspiracy that has recently been uncovered by the Japanese used car market.


Edit: Be that as it may, I think it's great that you're building a lightweight, naturally-aspirated NSX. That's got to be really fun to drive. I'm going to try to reduce the weight of my NSX and find some more naturally-aspirated horsepower, too.

The saying "hate on" I used is american slang "to hate on/" is to be jealous of something... Thus why i said the NSX has been "hated on" and doubted since its inception by others, not that people hate the car. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hate+on

Sorry for confusion..


FWIW
I did not just make blind comments, I would not argue with someone as knowledgeable as yourself had i not already done my homework... I've ran the numbers many times over the years and maintain a detailed excel sheet comparing many cars including my own tests in various cars, thus why I've posted my belief the NSX made a good bit more power than advertised..... no calculator nor relative car comparison nor drag racing understanding can substantiate the NSX-R doing 12.5 to 12.7 1/4 with less than 290 at the wheels (320crank-350crank) especially since it naturally launches horrendously for 1/4 mile....

The best comparison is the both of the new 2016 caymen GTS and boxter GTS are very similar builds to the NSX and have 330-340hp with 2950lbs yet still struggle to push 12.8 to 12.9 1/4mile (manual) thus still slower with a manual than the NSX-R... it makes no sense since the NSXR had to have allot more power or less weight (or a little of both).
Here are the details of both side by side: http://press.porsche.com/vehicles/2015/Tech-Specs-2015-Boxster-GTS-and-Cayman-GTS.pdf

read my post #89 , where is used that direct comparison. "The NSX-R should be slower than the Mid engine, newer & respected chassis Caymen S @ 2910lbs and 325hp 8.95 P/W (12.7sec 1/4 mile) (8:04 nurburgring)" ..... this was with PDK.... even then, it matched the NSX'R's 12.7 but not still not its 12.5 time.

the magazine weighing the NSXR at 26kg / 57lbs less than the advertised 1270kg / 1810lbs, further adds mystery to the subject... so now it may weigh less and have more hp with 50lbs less then it would need 5whp less so then we are alt least getting a little closer to where it needs to be to make sense..... there is no conspiracy, i said that jokingly, but that fact is manufactures have fudged and held back true engine HP numbers on limited production race oriented models to avoid automotive legalities/costs of getting upgraded motors tested.

----
Both of us can close this argument on one one fact, which is that neither of us knows for sure, thus anything is possible. so there's really no point discussing further.

I would love to see even more light weight NSX's
Weight loss is the answer N/A, any time I can choose between chasing +10hp and a gurenteed -100lbs, I would pick -100lbs because that equals the same acceleration gain plus even more importantly faster braking and handling... weight loss is guaranteed results and less stress on the components and engine, hp gains are subjective and usually have consequences..

 

[dquarasr2]

In what run group was that Homestead video in post 126, and with which organization?

 

[Patricio]

In what run group was that Homestead video in post 126, and with which organization?

PCA "novice/intermediate" was my 1:44
Billy ran the 1:41 in "solo instructor" but with me 190lbs in the car slowing him down (data has been posted)
if you know the track you know how fast that is for street non-refined car that has not been on the track in 3 years.
Billy would have done a 1:38-1:39 without me.

NT01 tires, unknown alignment since has been changed since 2 years old and suspension was recently lowed 1/4" due to recent 250lbs weight reduction the car sat higher. no corner balancing. I really wanted to run and test it right off the street as-is.

I see your in South Florida, I hope to meet you soon. maybe at next track day?

-------------------
- - - Updated - - -

--------
I created a spread sheet to show how as a car gets lighter with each additional 100lbs has an even more drastic effect. Thus why taking 100lbs-200lbs off a 3000lb car does not do much, but once you get below 2700lbs and the power to weight creeps below 8... the benefit of each 100lbs becomes MUCH greater.

the spread sheet uses two different 1/4 mile calculators equations. that also I have factored in 190 driver weight and use combination of crank and rwhp, thus creating a more advanced than regular web site calculators and gives a reasonable range of best worst case scenario times.

GREEN Example A1-6 is a normal H/I/E 269whp NSX at various stages of weight reduction 3000,2850,2700,2550,2400,2250
BLUE Example B1-6 is a H/I/E, cams, 12:1 medium build 300whp NSX at various stages of weight reduction 3000l,2850,2700,2550,2400,2250

As a disclaimer.... Although I have tried to make a good faith effort to make this as accurate as possible...
Please don't focus on the other cars hp and 1/4 miles themselves too closely, the main purpose of this is too see how each NSX weight reduction relates to another NSX weight reduction using the same formulas to have an accurate idea of improvement from stage to stage...


I have also attached a spread sheet that includes just about every single weight reduction I have found over the past 10 years many on this thread

If someone wants these excel sheets to play around with parameters please PM me your email address and I can forward to you.
-----------------------------
Updated 11/15

<a href="http://s172.photobucket.com/user/tiago3/media/nsx%20NA%20comparison33.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w15/tiago3/nsx%20NA%20comparison33.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo nsx NA comparison33.jpg"/></a>

 

[dquarasr2]

PCA "novice/intermediate" was my 1:44
Billy ran the 1:41 in "solo instructor" but with me 190lbs in the car slowing him down (data has been posted)
if you know the track you know how fast that is for street non-refined car that has not been on the track in 3 years.
Billy would have done a 1:38-1:39 without me.

NT01 tires, unknown alignment since has been changed since 2 years old and suspension was recently lowed 1/4" due to recent 250lbs weight reduction the car sat higher. no corner balancing. I really wanted to run and test it right off the street as-is.

I see your in South Florida, I hope to meet you soon. maybe at next track day?

We've met. :biggrin:

I was in the '91 red/black/ivory with the black mesh wheels at Cars and Coffee Palm Beach Outlets a few months ago.

The reason I was asking which run group and which organization is that it's hard to make a valid evaluation of one car's acceleration against another's at a track day unless you are sure the participants are getting 100% out of their cars. In the advance group, you can probably conclude that if you're gaining on another car it's because of the car. In the intermediate or novice group, you really don't know how much of the car the driver is using. And remember that exit speed is everything when it comes to accelerating down the subsequent straight.

My son and I have done 1:48's at Homestead in our 143 RWHP 2250-lb Miata (Hoosiers or NT01). So 1:44 for your time is respectable. Of course Billy's 1:41 is even better.

I think my point is that it's not a fair assessment to compare your performance against another car when you're not sure of the skills of the other car's driver.

Other than that, your assertions that weight is important are correct.

- Doug

 

[stuntman]

Wow, and that's with a 13.6 p/w ratio!!! (143hp+ 15% drivetrain loss)

-sarcasm for Patricio. Tires play a huge role.

 

[Patricio]

We've met. :biggrin:

I was in the '91 red/black/ivory with the black mesh wheels at Cars and Coffee Palm Beach Outlets a few months ago.

The reason I was asking which run group and which organization is that it's hard to make a valid evaluation of one car's acceleration against another's at a track day unless you are sure the participants are getting 100% out of their cars. In the advance group, you can probably conclude that if you're gaining on another car it's because of the car. In the intermediate or novice group, you really don't know how much of the car the driver is using. And remember that exit speed is everything when it comes to accelerating down the subsequent straight.

My son and I have done 1:48's at Homestead in our 143 RWHP 2250-lb Miata (Hoosiers or NT01). So 1:44 for your time is respectable. Of course Billy's 1:41 is even better.

I think my point is that it's not a fair assessment to compare your performance against another car when you're not sure of the skills of the other car's driver.

Other than that, your assertions that weight is important are correct.

- Doug

Hey Doug, now I remember meeting you. Great talking to you!

If you read my post and compared the video you will notice I only compared time segments where both cars where on straights and on the gas with no obstacles ahead. thus areas where no driver variable applies. And as you mentioned overall the times are what really matter, and thus why i posed a link to the rennlist site track time discussions.

One of my newfound objectives is to share awareness of the huge potential a lightweight NSX chassis has in N/A form while still retaining full interior amenities... I think the aura of the NSX revolves around the it being light weight and N/A, and think ever more typical tendency to resort to boost in search of performance comes from a false sense of overall performance by adding boost alone.


BTW... I do have extensive track experience and am aware of the difference in abilities and groups... Ive done tons of solo track days in PA,NJ,VW and was a sponsored driver in the one lap of America back in 2008. So you could say I've driven more tracks than most.... but also very rusty. my entry list and 10 events/tracks raced just in 2008, alone is here.... https://www.onelapofamerica.com/event/EntrantsList.do?eventId=27 and here...... https://www.onelapofamerica.com/event/Schedule.do?year=2008&eventId=27


I'm really curious to see what the car do at home stead without a passenger.

I'm sure sub 1:40's solo are in the near future at homestead with the plans over next few weeks include corner balancing, proper alignment, and installing the oil pan baffle to run the lighter & sticker R7 rubber I just received, Also have some further weight reductions about 60-70lbs, lexan rear hatch, R7's are 20lbs lighter than NT01's, changing heavy seat sliders for fixed seat brackets and few more small items.

these mods and minus passenger is 250lbs total reduction that's equal to 10% less weight than in the video.

Hope to see you at the track soon.

Wow, and that's with a 13.6 p/w ratio!!! (143hp+ 15% drivetrain loss)

-sarcasm for Patricio. Tires play a huge role.

The miata has always been an amazing car...

I actually do care more about maximum weight reduction more than P/W.... but P/W is what I think other people need to see to get hooked on the benefits of low weight and understand the overall picture.... without a clear picture I think people will just shrug weight reduction off as pointless, and just strap some boost to it. and still have an under-performing car overall.



---------------------

So i guess the next good discussion to have related to value here and to put some weight reduction options into prospective.

Ive always avoided un-reversible weight reduction mods, but come to think of it.....
Nothing's more UN-reversible than increased chances of totaling your car or life due to a overpowered car...

I've noticed many times the subject of ABS delete or aluminum bumpers comes up and many worry for each others life with warnings, yet some 400whp-600whp boost gets installed with oem or ebay brakes & suspension using oem spoiler (no downforce) nor driver experience nor decent traction control and very few are concerned with the huge danger that person just put themselves in. or the value reduction if their engine block pops and #'s no longer match to oem specs.

Weight reduction: deleting & modifying parts, bumper beams, abs delete, sound deadening delete
which effectively increases the performance of even the oem, brakes, suspension or thus requires less performance of aftermarket components.
or
Strapping on some boost capable of catapulting a NSX to speeds it was not designed for without proper, areo, suspension, brakes, nor heat management and also risking your life and original engine (reduced value) and likely an imbalanced car of parts that may not work when needed at high speeds.

weight reduction makes the car work better progressively at each phase.
Boost addition requires everything else to be upgraded and leaves the car in constant unbalance and dangerous until it's fully sorted out. So actually..... it could be said the risk of removing ABS or swapping for aluminum rear bumpers is the least of concerns people should have when choosing one direction or the other. Even from future value perspective, build a traction-less hard to manage car or remove some parts and maybe even some safety devices from a car that's being set up to handle better/safer?

these comments are directed towards the fact very few cars out there have made all the necessary modifications to handle their power. not towards cars that are properly and fully setup.

another issue people commonly forget about how dangerous it is to run 5-point Harnesses in street car, 5 point seat belts will snap necks if not used in conjunction with a hans device. OEM seat belts are designed to allow a slight shoulder neck adjustment and slack to allow your body and spine slack to give slightly over the free shoulder. also to allow your body to slide into center of car in side impact. and to allow for your body to curl up in a roll over. 5 point harnesses without hans device, will snap your neck instantly, keep you pinned against the side door and crush your skull in a roll over as soon as the roof gives in even just 6 inches since your head has no wear to go. Harnesses only work in conjunction with cage, hans and helmet. any of these without the other is worse than OEM. plus a cage on the street car without helmet will kill you the second someones head hits the bar, especially since crumple zones are welded and the force of impact will now be UN-absorbed. I took my harnesses out of all my street cars long ago. especially when you cant even reach anything when strapped in, the glove box, radio, phone when it falls on floor, nothing i could not even reach things that sometimes fall on floor near pedals nor the steering wheel height adjuster that gets lose on many NSX's once in a while, the more invloved process of strapping in causes less usage for short drives, and required strapping and unstrapping to reach into pockets and drive troughs and tolls all reduced the habit of strapping in regularly for me..... NOW add the weight of a helmet on track with harness and no hans and the neck will snap or crush even quicker. its either full race safety system or just 100% OEM when it comes to belts.

a 10-20% reduction in weight also means 10-20% less weight crushing upon the structure itself into the other object and increasing the relative structural resistance of the vehicles own weight pushing into the impacted area.. Thus likely reducing overall damage since a lighter vehicle is easier to deflect and/or change direction of force during impact.

Just bringing to light some of the pros of weight reduction and relative bad safety decisions people are making compared to some weight reduction tactics sometimes frowned upon and trying to find a middle ground for safety measures and performance. Its also a possibility that aluminum bumper beams could become equally sufficient as the OEM steel when considering a car that is 20% lighter than OEM.

 

[stuntman]

Rollovers are a far bigger concern in a car with a harness and no rollover protection than frontal impacts. HANS devices are new technology and people have been racing cars for decades without them, therefore a harness will not immediately "snap your neck" in a crash, although a hans is far safer to reduce BSFs.

The NSX seems to have a fairly strong roof and A-B pillar structure from the rollover pics I've seen.

 

[Patricio]

I fully agree with roll over being the worst and BSF's being reduced.
"snap your neck" may not have been the right way to put it... But supposedly there is more risk of neck injuries with double shoulder harness than oem seat belts

FWIW: someone in the racing safety industry explained to me there is no benefit to wearing harness in a street car as well a cage making it more dangerous. both in frontal impact and even worse for a side impact with harness, since your neck has minimal ability to flex sideways, thus in an oem your upper body moves with your neck, while in a double harness your neck absorbs 100% .. another issue is where your upper body in oem seat bets can be pushed through belts towards the center of the car away from the damaged door, while in case of the harness your pinched. if your unconscious and emergency removal is necessary on the public streets, oem only requires one single cut of the seat belt to remove you, while they would have to cut at least 3-4 points individually to get you out of a harness and many people may not know how to release a cam locking mechanism no matter how simple it may be. if a good Samaritan is trying to remove you using a knife, they will be there for awhile.

human head weight is like a bowling ball around 15lbs average on the end of a broom stick (your neck)

 

[BB]

and btw anyils car was maybe 20% NSX-R overall. yes cometically a perfect 10 NSXR look... but that is very far from what an NSXR really is functionally... I don't think he did any real weight reduction, that car was probably 3100 lbs at best and used allot of replica procar CF.... and where allot of people immediately go in the wrong direction trying to replicate a NSXR just by looks and concentrate on authenticity of parts. .

No way was Anil's car a "perfect 10" NSX-R look. Perhaps this was true of the exterior, but the interior looked very different from a real NSX-R. Wrong things on his car that I noticed...

No NSX-R black textured headliner, sun visors, or A and B pillar covers
His floor carpet was a clone made of obviously different looking fabric
His door insert cards were perforated instead of smooth flat black like a real NSX-R
His center console paint color didn't look anything like NSX-R
No NSX-R steering column cover with speckles in the finish
His dash and all interior plastics were dark black instead of a lighter flat black

The last item is impossible to fully replicate in a LHD car, yet it plays a major role in making the NSX-R interior look the way it does. I have never seen a LHD NSX-R clone that looks anyhwere close to perfect in the interior. Such a beast does not exist and never will.

His car didn't even have real NSX-R suspension and instead used Tein coilovers! Plus it was a targa that had been welded into a coupe! And some members wonder why his took so long to sell? Shit.

 

[Patricio]

I think your scale is off as well. You are in the right direction, but the numbers might be a bit lower than reality...

This is what a 2500lb NSX looks like: http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/102736-My-version-of-a-2500lb-NSX

And a 2200lb NSX: ( puc of modonna 999 NSX)

I notice you're using a highway truck scale
I believe they gain accuracy as weight increases toward normal highway truck weights.
Are you sure you are getting an accurate measure when you weigh so little compared to a highway truck axle weight of 15,000-20,000 lbs.
A 1% error could be in the 200 lb range.
You could be 200-400 lbs heavier than you think.

You may need to be corner balanced. Really truck scales I'd think could be slightly off. Not sure on percentage but if you want it down to the pound corner balance.

I believe JD's point was that if the scale is accurate to 1% of full scale, which doesn't strike me as beyond the realm of what is likely, then the error could be 200-400 lbs. Not all scales will give you a result accurate to 1% of the indicated value.

I'd like to see the results of a corner balance also. When I read "truck scale" I cringed haha

For those that doubted or were curious about a corner balance

Here what a 2518 lbs NON-Stripped car looks like,

Proving "certified" truck scales are accurate to within 1% (20lbs) lbs just as they are supposed to be.
EVEN my front to rear axle ratio weight was very accurate
I also included my previous posted truck scale weight again for comparison to new corner balance scales
I have lost some weight recently, rubberized chassis undercoating was removed and the head unit. about 20-30 lbs removed since truck scale,
but i also added the heavier stoptechs trophy front setup and rear NA2 rotors calipers and heavy NT01's. about +30lbs.... overall about the same.


got it weighed yesterday at a local Farrari challenge race shop

2518lbs

I still have AC, power locks & windows, Nav pod with nexus tablet and full interior and all oem glass, custom suede seats & door cards ect.

and this is on 17/18's with heavier than OEM nitto NT01 tires
235/40/17 are 25lbs
275/35/18 are 28lbs

oem size street tires like my lighter 17/17 setup or Hoosiers in the same size weigh about 20lbs less making it sub 2500lbs....

still looks, shows & drives like a regular street car. Which has been my primary goal has been to retain a relatively stock appearance and NSX-R / GT3 drivability.

they weighed front and rear seperatly since one of the scales was not working so thus why there is a front weight of 1008 lbs and rear weight of 1510 lbs
This actually did not need to corner balance it since it was already well balanced like this when we got it on scales and since i still have more weight reduction to go was not worth the extra 3 hours of work and $300 to adjust a few pounds on street car.

The shop estimated 7 gallons of gas in the tank

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No way was Anil's car a "perfect 10" NSX-R look. Perhaps this was true of the exterior, but the interior looked very different from a real NSX-R. Wrong things on his car that I noticed...

No NSX-R black textured headliner, sun visors, or A and B pillar covers
His floor carpet was a clone made of obviously different looking fabric
His door insert cards were perforated instead of smooth flat black like a real NSX-R
His center console paint color didn't look anything like NSX-R
No NSX-R steering column cover with speckles in the finish
His dash and all interior plastics were dark black instead of a lighter flat black

The last item is impossible to fully replicate in a LHD car, yet it plays a major role in making the NSX-R interior look the way it does. I have never seen a LHD NSX-R clone that looks anyhwere close to perfect in the interior. Such a beast does not exist and never will.

His car didn't even have real NSX-R suspension and instead used Tein coilovers! Plus it was a targa that had been welded into a coupe! And some members wonder why his took so long to sell? Shit.

well actually I agree it was not an exact NSX replica, and in my opinion welding the roof on a 3200lbs NA2 to try to make a NSX-R coupe is an abomination, the only way to do it right is to start with a NA1 coupe and install NA2 engine, trans, LSD, brakes, front end conversion ect. since a targa chassis will can never be changed into a NSX-R coupe chassis.. (modifying a rare NA2 coupe is not something i would condone either.)

But i don't agree a NSX clone should be right hand drive nor do I agree a clone has to have exact NSX-R parts since its still a "clone". I for one would take my tein coilovers, or comptech, or moton, or JRZ or KW over the oem NSX-R suspension any day. again To me as long as it functions naturally aspirated and is as good or better than a real NSX-R than thats about as much of a clone/tribute as I can appreciate, if someone was to go to the extent you mention here then that would be a fake and massive waste of money..

 

[dablackgoku1234]

You certainly proved us nay-sayers. Looking good!

 

[docjohn]

- - - Updated - - -

have you seen the new pluganplay S2000 dash replacement...saves some more weight...http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/193599-NSX2S2K-S2000-Instrument-Cluster-Conversion-Kit

 

[Stephen@NCAutoUSA]

Man that's light! After I get my car done and do my 02 conversion I need to get corner balanced again.

 

[JD Cross]

You said the truck scale you were using was accurate and it was!
Well done on the weight reduction program!