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NSX-R Stabilizer Bar
- Thread starter kreh
- Start date
No bumping, clanging or rubbing here when I had chassis bars installed with the stock 93 front bar in place.
- Joined
- 27 June 2003
- Messages
- 4,618
unless you mounted the lower bar upside down? It shouldn't cause any issues with stock suspension.
You can't mount the lower bar upside down because when you go to torque it, it will deform the brace. And besides, it will still interfere with the sway bar.
What? Have you guys not seen the threads like this?
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24233
This thread is in reference to aftermarket sway bars interfering with the chassis bar, and how the problem was made worse by sway bar spacers that were added in 1997 to lower things to make room for the bigger spare. There is also discussion about how the NSX-R front sway is shaped differently to allow plenty of clearance.
If you guys are not having any problems, then that is good. I know that after installing my front lower chassis bar, I looked at the space between the front part of the stock sway bar and the chassis bar, and there could not have been more than 2mm clearance, and that's with no compression of the suspension. I have Zanardi suspension so it's .5 inches lower. The gap will be larger for cars that are not lowered. I would expect the bar to touch under full compression. Perhaps a rare and not at all catastrophic event, but not ideal. You may never even encounter it until you happen to accidentally run full speed through a nasty drainage ditch. After installing the NSX-R front sway, there is a lot more space.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24233
This thread is in reference to aftermarket sway bars interfering with the chassis bar, and how the problem was made worse by sway bar spacers that were added in 1997 to lower things to make room for the bigger spare. There is also discussion about how the NSX-R front sway is shaped differently to allow plenty of clearance.
If you guys are not having any problems, then that is good. I know that after installing my front lower chassis bar, I looked at the space between the front part of the stock sway bar and the chassis bar, and there could not have been more than 2mm clearance, and that's with no compression of the suspension. I have Zanardi suspension so it's .5 inches lower. The gap will be larger for cars that are not lowered. I would expect the bar to touch under full compression. Perhaps a rare and not at all catastrophic event, but not ideal. You may never even encounter it until you happen to accidentally run full speed through a nasty drainage ditch. After installing the NSX-R front sway, there is a lot more space.
No, I haven't seen that thread... but I've seen my car hundreds of times and installed the chassis bars myself. Any my car is low... lower than any of the other NSXs in my area. And I have an '02. And my OEM anti-roll bar does not interfere with my lower NSX-R chassis bar.
Don't want to discount what others may be experiencing... just one data point (mine).
J
I have an '02 as well. I put the chassis bars on before I installed the NSX-R swaybar. The attached photo is the contact marks that were left by the stock swaybar. I've seen this same mark on several other NSX's.
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Guys please lets not give the R bar a bad name by making assumptions on what it does. Oversteer/understeer is determined by every suspension part including alighnment settings, wheels and the types of tires, even air pressure. The OP makes a wholesale statement about the R bar creating understeer after having changed to an R bar and Tein coilovers at the same time, we don't really know enough to know what is causing his understeer.
The rear sway bar on different years is also different. My stock 2005 rear bar is the same as the R rear bar. The car is very neutral with this setup. Wingz tried the rear Zanardi bar on his 2004 at the track and now is going back to his stock 2004 rear bar. I don't know what the R bar will do to older models with a thinner rear bar.
I have the chassis bars and have never had any rubbing issues. This combo of the chassis and R front bar was one of the best mods I did on the car. Steering input is much quicker now, all the lean is gone, and with my setup and the RT615's the car corners neutral and with immense grip.
The rear sway bar on different years is also different. My stock 2005 rear bar is the same as the R rear bar. The car is very neutral with this setup. Wingz tried the rear Zanardi bar on his 2004 at the track and now is going back to his stock 2004 rear bar. I don't know what the R bar will do to older models with a thinner rear bar.
I have the chassis bars and have never had any rubbing issues. This combo of the chassis and R front bar was one of the best mods I did on the car. Steering input is much quicker now, all the lean is gone, and with my setup and the RT615's the car corners neutral and with immense grip.
Well it's well known that the spring rates that come with the Tein RE cause oversteer. I "figured" that the Type R fron sway with the Tein RE would cause a more neutral feel. I was wrong. It induced more understeer than stock 93 suspension and sway.
Soooo not giving it a bad name or rep. I just think it would immensly suck even worst on my car if I had stock suspension. But in my application, it just plain sucks in the application I've put it into.
i thought that the rear sway specs only was different in the Zanardi and Type-S...
i thought that the rear sway specs only was different in the Zanardi and Type-S...
No. 04/05 has a different rear sway bar. I believe there was at least one other change between 91 and 2004 if not more. There are other threads you can do a search and see that the rear sways have changed a few times. I know for a fact that my 2005 bar is thicker than koolaid's bar. I also have heard from several track guys the Dali bars are too thick causing some undesirable behavior at speed. I forget the details but this has all been dicussed several times. It seems every few months this subject comes up again.
In regards to the rear sway bars, looky here.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76599&highlight=zanardi+rear+sway+bar
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76599&highlight=zanardi+rear+sway+bar
A case were a stiff front bar reduces understear....
The SOS JIC susp has so little travel that after turnin the outside front would bottom and it would push out hard. The bigger front bar reduced roll, not bottoming and therefore less push mid corner.
I have not tried the dali front/rear bars yet but I plan to after I have a few more track days under my belt.
T.J.
Ok so I took off the Type R front swaybar today and went back to the midget 18.3 oem coupe front. Several observations:
1. Ride is actually smoother just driving around.
2. Lots more suspension travel because I managed to keep 4 wheels down when backing diagonal out of the driveway
3. The push and understeer is still there but CONSIDERABLY less. It actually grabs better around tighter corners.
4. Body roll... yep it's back and obvious now.
5. In higher G corners, the car feels floaty kinda like the top of the car is being pulled upward and outward in the corner. More than likely due to the body roll.
6. Steering response is SLOW in reaction but whips hard once it does.
7. Steering precision is sluggish, kinda like driving a marshmellow. lol
8. Car has less tendency to skip on rough corners.
9. Steering is now lighter feeling
Overall..... the Type R front swaybar alone improved precision, steering response, reduced body roll. BUT added nasty understeer and push.
My priorities, #1 street performance, #2 street comfort #3 track performance. #2/#3 is more like a tie, but I never get to track my car so it barely gets edged out by comfort, barely.
Verdict is, Type R swaybar is OUT for good. In replacement eventually will be a matched set of dali street or street/race bars. Anyone wanna buy a type R front swaybar? GREAT shape, only have a couple thousand miles on em. No gashes or anything, includes bushing but NO brackets, use your own. If it'll fit in my trunk, can be dropped off at ALMS Car Corral @ laguna to save on shipping.
1. Ride is actually smoother just driving around.
2. Lots more suspension travel because I managed to keep 4 wheels down when backing diagonal out of the driveway
3. The push and understeer is still there but CONSIDERABLY less. It actually grabs better around tighter corners.
4. Body roll... yep it's back and obvious now.
5. In higher G corners, the car feels floaty kinda like the top of the car is being pulled upward and outward in the corner. More than likely due to the body roll.
6. Steering response is SLOW in reaction but whips hard once it does.
7. Steering precision is sluggish, kinda like driving a marshmellow. lol
8. Car has less tendency to skip on rough corners.
9. Steering is now lighter feeling
Overall..... the Type R front swaybar alone improved precision, steering response, reduced body roll. BUT added nasty understeer and push.
My priorities, #1 street performance, #2 street comfort #3 track performance. #2/#3 is more like a tie, but I never get to track my car so it barely gets edged out by comfort, barely.
Verdict is, Type R swaybar is OUT for good. In replacement eventually will be a matched set of dali street or street/race bars. Anyone wanna buy a type R front swaybar? GREAT shape, only have a couple thousand miles on em. No gashes or anything, includes bushing but NO brackets, use your own. If it'll fit in my trunk, can be dropped off at ALMS Car Corral @ laguna to save on shipping.
Not a bad diagnosis/feedback!
But keep in mind #5 and #6. NSX-R bar would improve immediate response and turn-in but would add understeer at medium and especially low speed corners.
You have pretty good feedback. I'll be driving a dali-swaybar equipped car soon and would like to compare feedback. But I was impressed with your diagnosis, congrats!
LoL, thanks! I'm just trying to dial in my car. Ever since I've been messing with it in terms of wheels/tires/coil overs/ ride height/swaybars, things are aren't are good as I hoped they'd be. I mean it feels worlds better than stock to me, but still not "perfect". I always end up feeling like it's lacking and MORE and MORE money disappears out of my pocket....ex, better stereo, better speakers, better wheels, better tires, better shocks/coil overs, swaybars, better hp mods, etc etc. This is an expensive endless cycle! lol Always in the pursuit of more!
As much as I like the ride of the stock sways, I HATE the handling. I'm thinking dali street/race matched set, which is stiffer than Type R & Zanardi, or dali street which is softer than the TypeR & Z sways. Hell, I'm going Dali street/race!
MJ's description of the matched sways he sells is EXACTLY what I want because his opinion of the stock handling of the nsx is exactly how I feel. Just a little bit of dialed in understeer in stock form. Then to just dial that OUT would be perfect. Which is actually what he describes his sways to do.
Do you know which set you're getting on your car?
As much as I like the ride of the stock sways, I HATE the handling. I'm thinking dali street/race matched set, which is stiffer than Type R & Zanardi, or dali street which is softer than the TypeR & Z sways. Hell, I'm going Dali street/race!
MJ's description of the matched sways he sells is EXACTLY what I want because his opinion of the stock handling of the nsx is exactly how I feel. Just a little bit of dialed in understeer in stock form. Then to just dial that OUT would be perfect. Which is actually what he describes his sways to do.
Do you know which set you're getting on your car?
Suspension (like anything else vehicle-dynamic related) takes a lot of development and understanding to get right. Often it takes a lot of trial and error, especially if you do not know the theory and have a full and complete understanding of what you're doing.
This is why I can be such a PITA on suspension (and most recently -Brakes) threads. Especially brakes which can greatly reduce the braking ability of your car if mixed and matched incorrectly, let alone a caliper or rotor that dosnt have development under it and has a higher risk of failing.
It's funny (not in a mean way) to see others like yourself try to go about finding their own 'best' setup. And you have an understanding of what youre doing -enough so where you're not chasing your tail, but with trial and error (unfortunately costing $) you'll get there... :biggrin:
- Joined
- 26 September 2006
- Messages
- 397
go with the street/race setup. You will love the feedback. Been riding on them for a few months now and have to be one of the best cornering additions i have added (tested on the street). Turn in has improved dramtically over the R bar with very minimal understeer/push. MJ has guided me in the right direction as far as suspensions are involved. The R bar is probably best suited when all suspension components are up to spec and dialed in as is a factory NSXR.
Just my 2cents.
These statements and testimonials are useless without knowing your setup:
- tire sizes front and rear
- suspension (coilovers/springs & shocks)
It's like saying: "Toyo RA-1 Tires sucks and have no grip for track use"
...without disclosing that you were running narrower than stock 185 front and 205 rear tires.
The handling of your car comes down to far more factors than just swaybars (or any other single suspension piece), it's a combination of everything.
If your car is bone stock it would be acceptable to say "On a stock car, adding Dali's street/race swaybars ______________" or "Compared to a NSX-R bar, the Dali Bars__________".
Koolaid did a great analysis of a direct comparison between the R-front bar and stock. He discribed everything from ride, turn-in, mid corner, low and high speed corners. Even though he did not disclose his setup, his analysis was a direct comparison between R and stock, rather than a generalization of "it's better".
If you're going to make a direct comparison, then please explain more like Koolaid did and not just "It turns in better". Because that statement dosnt say/mean anything. Koolaid explained how the R bar turned in better, especially at high speeds, and understeered at low speeds.
So make sure you disclose your setup before giving feedback on a product unless it's a direct comparison ___ vs. ____ and your analysis. :biggrin:
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- Joined
- 26 September 2006
- Messages
- 397
Sorry you are right, i do believe i mentioned it somewhere. I have 17 x7.5 with 215/40/17 front, 18 x9.5 265/35/18 in the rear (Dunlop Sport Maxx), Dali street/race bars, NSX R chassis bars, Bilsteins & H&Rs. I ran the NSX R swaybar up front which gave me severe understeer. On turns i use to take effortless on twisty roads (before with the stock bars), i had to really work hard to get them right after utilizing teh R swaybar. Tires and all other factors were the same. After speaking of my disappointment of teh R swaybar with MJ he referred me to his swaybars and it madea tremendous difference. Car feels more crisp on turns. I did not track the car so i am referring to my street driving experiences. I am very pleased with the way it responds in turns now.
So i had one hell of a wake up call this afternoon while driving to my sister's house. I got so use to having to MUSCLE the car around corners that on my first "regular" corners I got so used to taking at speed, that I almost drove right off the right hand side of the road during that right hand turn! I mean, holy hell! The car actually changed vector w/o having the front wheels scrub sideways forever and I wasn't used to that anymore! I was used to having to "over crank" the steering wheel to get it to make some of these corners because of the severe understeer and push.
Tell you what though, I'm loving the ride but god this thing handles like crap in comparison to having a stiffer swaybar in. It feels like I'm driving a minivan now. I GOTTA order my new set of bars and fast!
Tell you what though, I'm loving the ride but god this thing handles like crap in comparison to having a stiffer swaybar in. It feels like I'm driving a minivan now. I GOTTA order my new set of bars and fast!
Until you push and understeer right off the road and off the cliff
- Joined
- 26 September 2006
- Messages
- 397
Im not sure how bad you are experiencing your understeer. I dont recall it being that bad. Is your car properly alligned? Any past accidents that may damaged the frame? For the measly $300 or so i would get the bars and see how you like the setup. If you dont like them you can always sell them here on Prime. Just take it easy for now.
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