NSX spin out... Hearing to many happen ;[

[transdzn]

I don't know if it is the recent rain in Cali that brought out the oil from the road, driving on summer tires, or the combination- but I'm hearing a few spinouts stories :frown:

Be careful out there.

Regards,

Vizal

 

[jagtiger]

It's scary.... there are certain conditions that the rear tires looses it's traction....like sudden lane change and at the same time engaging the rev limiter....the road doesnt have to be wet or slippery...I've talked to 2 other NSX owners who had the same experience...anyone else??

 

[BD]

The oil from the road start to surface when rain. If you're tires are low on tred, you will have problem....

 

[robfenn]

In bad weather if you have an NSX with modified suspension then if you can soften it up or disconnect the roll bars.

I think it's easy to get worked up about the rain and then drive less smoothly, causing an unsettled NSX. If you do spin remember to keep your foot hard on the brakes until you fully stop! I've narrowly avoiding totalling the NSX twice so far, on track of course!

-Rob

 

[transdzn]

If you do spin remember to keep your foot hard on the brakes until you fully stop! I've narrowly avoiding totalling the NSX twice so far, on track of course!

-Rob

I don't know if this is the best way to handle a spin-- keeping the foot planted on the brakes. Maybe somebody can comment.

The spin out was before the rain. So weather was not the factor. Tire threads is between excellent/good.

 

[Gerard van Santen]

I don't know if this is the best way to handle a spin-- keeping the foot planted on the brakes. Maybe somebody can comment.

The way you handle a spin depends on the circumstances. A spin usually starts with oversteer. That means that only the rear tires loose grip. What you don't want is that the front tires also loose grip.
That is what happens if you keep your foot planted on the brakes (it makes it worse if you don't have ABS). It all has to do with controll and that is the worse part. Are you capable to control the situation if suddenly your rear wheels want to pass your fronts? Probably not! If you are, try to keep the fronts in the direction you want to go and only by controlling your throttle you can give your rears enough grip to stop oversteering into a spin. The rears will now push (torques) the car into the direction you choose. If you block all the wheels you will loose control and the car will go into the direction you probably not would have choosen.

But this is all theory:biggrin:

 

[satx]

"in a spin.....BOTH feet in", that's clutch and brake. Now you'll always remember:smile:

 

[robfenn]

Ah yes, forgot that bit!

I meant once you've spun, not as a method to try and control one about to happen

 

[goldNSX]

I nearly spun a few years ago when I had to slow down after going to 8000 rpm in second, didn't gas at all, but didn't brake either in a corner. It looked very good until the rear came out suddenly because of the high torque the engine has while slowing down at high revs. How to react is theory, you can only learn this by practicing it in a safety-center. In this situation the clutch is very helpful. That was my first experience with a mid-engine car going crazy. It taught me very much respect.

 

[Scin]

If you break the rears loose by getting too agressive on the throttle, whatever you do, don't lift! Stay on the throttle and steer into your skid. If you lift the car will snap back the other direction and you will most likely loose control.

Sadly I've wrecked two vehicles in my lifetime, and both because I lifted off the throttle. The first was a 300zx I put into a field (2k damage) after getting completely sideways and lifting off the throttle. The 2nd was a gsxr 600 that I highsided recently, the back end came loose because my tires were cold (rolled on half throttle in a strait line), when the back end snapped out I rolled off the throttle and the bike caught traction and I was bucked off, thankfully the bike didn't land on me and I had full gear on.

The best thing you can do is go to performance driving school and also take your car to a nice big empty parking lot and play with it to see how it feels. Then try not to drive like an idiot on the streets, if you want to go fast take it to a race track.

 

[Cody@LoveFab]

The best thing you can do is go to performance driving school and also take your car to a nice big empty parking lot and play with it to see how it feels. Then try not to drive like an idiot on the streets, if you want to go fast take it to a race track.

Best advice in here Or heaven-forbid find a snowy parking lot and have some fun

 

[710]

I don't know if it is the recent rain in Cali that brought out the oil from the road, driving on summer tires, or the combination- but I'm hearing a few spinouts stories :frown:
Be careful out there.
Regards,
Vizal

What you need is my quick steering rack, due out in a month or so (manual steering for now). The NSX has 3.25 turns lock to lock, which is very slow, so it’s difficult to opposite lock quickly enough and then beat the snap back. So body damage is the result.
About 2.5 turns lock to lock seems to be the most common on sporty cars with quick steering.
The new rack will have 2.6 turns.
The rack also will have adjustable end stops to give more (zero to 8mm) travel. This will help to catch a spin a little.
Also the travel can be restricted from zero to 20mm for you guys with wider tires that rub when you turn sharp.
Fun and safety is why I’m getting the quick rack done. I’ve also lost it a few times and I can’t afford that. It increases the force needed when parking by 12 pounds on each arm. Only when parking. When driving the difference in force is not really noticeable. But the difference in the way the car feels is noticeable!
It is being made by Quaife, who do racing gearboxes and racing steering stuff. Stock housing, the inside parts are changed. It has a wider base where the gear meshes for stability and for smoother meshing. And bigger bushing surface area because some stock racks seem to wear out at the mileage our cars are getting to now.
It’s a few ounces lighter because it has a beautiful waisted center part.
Peter

 

[710]

The best thing you can do is ...also take your car to a nice big empty parking lot and play with it to see how it feels.

Yes, this is absolutely the best advice here (the other advise is good too:smile: ).

Also I find that if you start to slide, try to “look ahead”. Look far ahead in the direction to a place that you want to be at and concentrate on getting there. It’s difficult mentally to do this because you tend to look at the thing you are going to hit. But don’t. Mental discipline and “look ahead”. Your brain will automatically adjust and command your arms to steer correctly. All in a few seconds.
Try it in a wet parking lot, you will be drifting in no time.
peter

 

[DrVolkl]

I noticed the dynamics of this car are fairly different from a front engine car when I took it to an auto-x. If the tail end gets happy, it's very hard to control by counter steering...the advice about staying on the gas seems to be the way to get out of it. It really does "snap" back on you...luckily I got to experience what it feels like on a course, not a highway.

It rains here daily in Seattle in the winter...haven't had any problems yet, but I've had the TCS on and been shifting before 4k all the time.

Oh, and my tires are probably the worst possible....so I'm not taking any chances.

 

[Batoutahell]

Yes, this is absolutely the best advice here (the other advise is good too:smile: ).

Also I find that if you start to slide, try to “look ahead”. Look far ahead in the direction to a place that you want to be at and concentrate on getting there. It’s difficult mentally to do this because you tend to look at the thing you are going to hit. But don’t. Mental discipline and “look ahead”. Your brain will automatically adjust and command your arms to steer correctly. All in a few seconds.

Excellent advice! If you start to spin and you fix your eyes on the wall you're headed for, chances are you're going to hit it. Look where you want to go...the hands follow the eyes.

 

[spyderplayer2002]

My friend spun his father's nsx a few months ago just going around a wet corner and coming onto the gas too hard. Ironically, when we were leaving the house, rain had just started and he turned the tcs off, I told him about the story I had just read of an acura tech that wrecked a guys nsx by hard shitfting in the rain without tcs. He turned it back on.

 

[NeoNSX]

If you break the rears loose by getting too agressive on the throttle, whatever you do, don't lift! Stay on the throttle and steer into your skid. If you lift the car will snap back the other direction and you will most likely loose control.

I've had a van I was driving spin on me twice in wet/oily conditions, and both times i recovered by steering into the skid. However, while I did lift my foot off the throttle slightly I did NOT apply brakes. In retrospect, if i'd applied brakes I feel I would have kept going sideways.

I've always thought the goal in a spin-out is to REGAIN CONTROL -- not necessarily to stop. But i'm not an expert... i wouldn't mind hearing what track-drivers like <B>docjohn</B> think.

 

[2slow2speed]

The best thing you can do is go to performance driving school and also take your car to a nice big empty parking lot and play with it to see how it feels. Then try not to drive like an idiot on the streets, if you want to go fast take it to a race track.

Agree 100%, if someone is breaking traction on dry roads then they are driving well above their skills or too aggresively or their suspension needs some serious overhaul or adjustment, so that the car's handling leans towards understeer.

 

[2slow2speed]

What you need is my quick steering rack, due out in a month or so (manual steering for now). The NSX has 3.25 turns lock to lock, which is very slow, so it’s difficult to opposite lock quickly enough and then beat the snap back. So body damage is the result.
About 2.5 turns lock to lock seems to be the most common on sporty cars with quick steering.
The new rack will have 2.6 turns.
The rack also will have adjustable end stops to give more (zero to 8mm) travel. This will help to catch a spin a little.
Also the travel can be restricted from zero to 20mm for you guys with wider tires that rub when you turn sharp.
Fun and safety is why I’m getting the quick rack done. I’ve also lost it a few times and I can’t afford that. It increases the force needed when parking by 12 pounds on each arm. Only when parking. When driving the difference in force is not really noticeable. But the difference in the way the car feels is noticeable!
It is being made by Quaife, who do racing gearboxes and racing steering stuff. Stock housing, the inside parts are changed. It has a wider base where the gear meshes for stability and for smoother meshing. And bigger bushing surface area because some stock racks seem to wear out at the mileage our cars are getting to now.
It’s a few ounces lighter because it has a beautiful waisted center part.
Peter

Hmm.. The stock NSX steernig rack is slower in order to prevent sudden inputs from disrupting the car (it's a mid-engine car after all), it's perfectly possible to recover from an oversteer situation or a slide with the stock NSX steering rack, being there and done that many times at the track both in the rain or due to oil/coolant/gas with my 97NSX-T on the track.

A faster steering rack would probably be useful for folks who track/auto-X their NSX, wouldn't recommend for a street driven NSX, you would be opening up a whole new can of worms. Not everyone who owns a NSX knows how to drive it properly as it is.

Not dissing your product, glad to see more good quality aftermarket products being made for the NSX, it's just that not everyone needs or is qualified for an upgrade such as the one that you described.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[NSXDreamer2]

Ken did give a good advise... I can relate to those indoor go kart... While I'm naturally a drifter when playing those karts at slippery tracks, I do like the fast steering (1:1) with an oversteering chassis setup.

I did have couple times spinning into the walls trying to warming up the tires at first lap... (well, playfully)..... In that situation, it is exactly what could happen to a street driven MR car in low traction condition with a fast steering rack... Come to think of it, most spin were actually from too much speed + over correction, which tends to happen easier to a better than avg. driver aka sports car drivers. Just my opinion.

 

[710]

No, you’re not dissing the rack, your thoughts on this are quite normal. :smile:

….. The stock NSX steering rack is slower in order to prevent sudden inputs from disrupting the car

This is a very common misconception. Try driving a tractor (very slow steering) at highway speeds. No way. Even some semi trucks have pretty good steering these days.

2.6 turns isn’t really quick. Rally cars have 2 sometimes. That’s quick
3.25 is very slow especially considering the NSX front wheels only turn about 30 degrees. Turn the front wheels of your standard family car 30 degrees (it will probably go further, but keep it the same 30 degrees). Then count how many turns you had to turn it to get it there. Family cars are quicker than the NSX and people aren’t having problems with sudden inputs.

Honda gave the NSX slower steering so people wouldn’t complain about parking.

They had to make it slow because of the castor and scrub radius that they ended up with after getting great handling. Why did they end up with castor and scrub radius the way it is? Because designing suspension is full of compromises, especially in the front.
They ended up with a difficult steering suspension getting the most out of the handling characteristics of the suspension. But I’m glad they left it that way instead of decreasing the handling to give an easy steering car.
Peter

 

[Bart Geerts]

Excellent advice! If you start to spin and you fix your eyes on the wall you're headed for, chances are you're going to hit it. Look where you want to go...the hands follow the eyes.

And I even know exactly WHEN you're going to hit it. 10 minutes before the police and the ambulance arrive at scene...

 

[2slow2speed]

No, you’re not dissing the rack, your thoughts on this are quite normal. :smile:
This is a very common misconception. Try driving a tractor (very slow steering) at highway speeds. No way. Even some semi trucks have pretty good steering these days.

2.6 turns isn’t really quick. Rally cars have 2 sometimes. That’s quick
3.25 is very slow especially considering the NSX front wheels only turn about 30 degrees. Turn the front wheels of your standard family car 30 degrees (it will probably go further, but keep it the same 30 degrees). Then count how many turns you had to turn it to get it there. Family cars are quicker than the NSX and people aren’t having problems with sudden inputs.

Honda gave the NSX slower steering so people wouldn’t complain about parking.

They had to make it slow because of the castor and scrub radius that they ended up with after getting great handling. Why did they end up with castor and scrub radius the way it is? Because designing suspension is full of compromises, especially in the front.
They ended up with a difficult steering suspension getting the most out of the handling characteristics of the suspension. But I’m glad they left it that way instead of decreasing the handling to give an easy steering car.
Peter

Without including turning radius which might make this a bit confusing or invalid but assuming that the following cars can turn within a reasonable amount of each other these are the lock to lock values for the following modern cars.

C6 2.8
C6 Z06 2.9

Lotus Elise (US Spec) 2.8

F430 3.0
Enzo 2.4

997 2.6
Cayman 2.6
Carrera GT 2.6
996GT3 2.6

Murcielago 3.5

E46 M3 3.0
M5 (2006) 2.5

In the last 3 years, I've owned a couple of E46 M3's (6 Speed & SMG) as well as a 996 MKII GT3 in addition to driving the NSX, the M3's understeered badly because of the front engine layout, the GT3 was very twitchy and eager to change directions with minimal steering input because of the faster steering and the rear engine layout (great for a track car, but would suck in the hands of someone who does not know how to drive properly given that it does not have PSM (Porsche Save Me!!!))

Just to clarify, I'm not against a faster steering, I just don't think that it would be prudent for people who drive their cars on the street and don't know how to drive the car as it is. (lot's of those people here in the US and more so in areas where it does not rain much or where it does not snow either, they don't know what to do when the car gets sideways or why it happens )

Looking forward to hearing more about your product once it's ready.

Back to the regular programming now

L8TR

 

[710]

2slow2speed,
Wow. Thanks for the info. I’ll add it to my list. I also have a list with turns lock to lock for some cars. I measured them before I designed the rack.

Lock to lock figures aren’t much good though because, as you said quite rightly, it depends on the turning circle. I use 30 degrees (front wheel turned) to compare.

I have a Daihatsu Charade that turns 4.1 turns! The road wheels turn 42 degrees! Amazing. But that works out to about the same ratio as the NSX steering.
Our Ford Mondeo station wagon (I think Concept in the States?) is a real boat. But the steering is way quicker than the NSX. And the Cosworth Escort is 2.5 turns lock to lock and that works out to 2 turns to the NSX’s 3.25 turns
The Cosworth is way quicker than my NSX. Stability is not a problem. But it has power steering, so doesn’t have the same constraints as the NSX. Like parking problems.

It was really hard to decide what ratio to use. I eventually decided to make it not too quick because I drive my NSX everyday to work and have to park it too.
I don’t want to thrash it so I have never tracked it. I regularly go on the Nurburgring though, but that’s no place to be drifting in a corner.

Here in Belgium it rains all the time, slippery leaves on the road, marbles and slippery paint (white lines).
I like the rain. I love to play with the car and I spend a lot of time looking out the side window.:biggrin: The car is so predictable and starts with mild understeer and goes into oversteer smoothly and it’s possible to control it with the throttle. It’s a great car. Don't get wrong idea, I am not getting the back out by hitting the throttle. It's a turn at speed induced slide (in the wet, it's low speed. In the dry, well I don't do that...). Not many other cars can be slid so easily.

Once at the Nurburgring (Nordschlife) it was pissing with rain and I went round slipping and sliding all the way.
This car handles really really well. But in the dry, it needs a quicker rack because if I overcook it, the snap back is too quick to catch. Don't you find that?

If any of you have anymore info or steering ratios of other cars, I’d love to see it. Thanks in advance.

Peter

Ps. I hope you guys that say “stay on the gas” in a slide have the TCS on. I presume so…
If not, staying full on the gas is definitely not what you should do.

…lot's of those people here in the US and more so in areas where it does not rain much or where it does not snow either, they don't know what to do when the car gets sideways or why it happens )

You are right about that. The lack of experience (never rains in Calif…), i guess. Its a pity they are missing the fun…

 

[W]

Ps. I hope you guys that say “stay on the gas” in a slide have the TCS on. I presume so…
If not, staying full on the gas is definitely not what you should do.


You are right about that. The lack of experience (never rains in Calif…), i guess. Its a pity they are missing the fun…

I think what people mean by 'staying on the gas' is to not jump off the throttle. If you induce oversteer with the throttle, you can get the car to come back by easing off the throttle and/or countersteering. It's like those skidpad type corners on tracks, you don't have to steer to position and angle your car in the corner, the right foot can take care of that quite nicely.

Anywho, it sounds like people are accelerating through constant radius corners in slippery conditions and (not surprisingly) having the back-end step out.