NSX Timing belt doesn't look like much compared to this F-348

[warrenw]

F 348 engine out major maintenance:
This is complex compared to an NSX...

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/technical-q/438576-348-engine-out-major.html

check out page 9. they use and prefer Honda bond!
I found this funny.

 

[A.S. Motorsport]

Ohh A 348, that can be quite a pain in maintenance.
Honestly Ferrari Dino engine's are unnecessarily complicated in there timing setup and its very delicate (poor quality bearings & seals)
We generally replace the bearings and tensioners with reinforced aftermarket items

And behind the belt there is a chain running to the crank....

 

[kookoo4nsx]

Is the cost double or triple?

 

[Bram]

What a complex design, two sets of timing systems, belts and chain unfortunately they both needs to be changed at the same time...Wow

Bram

 

[Larry Bastanza]

If you replace the belt with a chain, that is the exact layout of a early 911 boxer 3.0 engine. Since it is a chain, there are no timing marks for the 911 engine, you needed to measure the actual valve lift to time the cams. Fun stuff

Regards,
LarryB

 

[wazari]

The F348 and 355's are a nightmare with regards to maintenance. The 360 and later V8's were much better in design with regards to maintenance. Having owned a F355, I can tell you the cost for a timing belt change is more like 3 to 4 times the cost of a NSX. They are a great car to drive when running correctly and IMO sexy as heck, but you need to keep thousands in reserve for maintenance and repairs. Never again.

 

[A.S. Motorsport]

Is the cost double or triple?

It's very costly but mainly in labor, I'd need to dig up the invoice for the last one we did but parts i recall are 50-75% more than the NSX.
Waterpump bearings are weak too but the pumps are the easy part very rudimentary compared to the NSX.


Wazari, is right on that the are a nightmare in running costs, just as twin turbo Maserati's those need constant belt changes and valve adjustment.
Then every other belt your DOHC chains need replacing, after your done with that you'll likely get vacuum issues that need sorting, after that electronic failure and you'll start back at belt changes.

After you've done the WP/TB maintenance on both the Ferrari or Maserati you need to replace the all the lose coolant hoses underneath the manifold.
Honda uses aluminum piping with a simple O ring which is the only right-way Ferrari uses cast pieces joint with hoses and clamps.

This will leak over time and give issues. (I posted pic of a Maserati V8 job on our Facebook a few weeks back, all hoses where about to give way)

Worst job is a Lancia Thema 832 (3.2 Ferrari V8) not only does it have the 2 belts & chain but Ducati redesigned a lot of annoying details making it much worse.

 

[Old Guy]

Worst job is a Lancia Thema 832 (3.2 Ferrari V8) not only does it have the 2 belts & chain but Ducati redesigned a lot of annoying details making it much worse.

Just for fun, Ducati should have added the bevel drive gear and winkler cap adjustment system that they used on their early desmodromic drive valve gear systems. That would have eliminated the belt replacement cost; but, set a whole new standard in mega $ for doing a valve adjustment on a V8 engine!

Where I live, the closest Ferrari dealer is 700 km away in Calgary. I was told by a local Ferrari owner that once a year, the Calgary dealer used to send a transporter around to pick up the local owner cars (for those who didn't want to do the round trip drive) and bring them to the shop in Calgary for their annual maintenance. Kind of adds perspective to the whining about the cost of maintenance on an NSX!

 

[robbiedawg]

The F348 and 355's are a nightmare with regards to maintenance. The 360 and later V8's were much better in design with regards to maintenance. Having owned a F355, I can tell you the cost for a timing belt change is more like 3 to 4 times the cost of a NSX. They are a great car to drive when running correctly and IMO sexy as heck, but you need to keep thousands in reserve for maintenance and repairs. Never again.

our local nsx group went to the ferrari dealer a few years ago,and i asked one of the salesmen about maintenance.he told me he had a 355 and said the maintenance was basically nothing,that he never had to do anything to it.i did not quite believe him.

 

[NetViper]

our local nsx group went to the ferrari dealer a few years ago,and i asked one of the salesmen about maintenance.he told me he had a 355 and said the maintenance was basically nothing,that he never had to do anything to it.i did not quite believe him.

One of the sales guys at lambo of Atlanta had a 360. I asked him about the maintenance. He said that is was cheap to maintain and never had to do anything. I felt really bad for the next guy who bought it.

 

[bngl3rt]

I think a lot of the "maintenance" on Ferraris is actually "random shit that broke", and the way you keep random shit from breaking on Ferraris (and other exotics like Lambos) is by driving them regularly.

And, frankly, I think one of the reason NSXs are so reliable is because people drive theirs regularly. When I bought my NSX it had been sitting undriven for years, and I had a lot of stuff to fix that probably would not have broken had the car been given regular exercise.

If I had an F360 or an F430 I would take it to work at least once a week. A co-worker of mine has a 308, a 355, and a 430, and he says the maintenance is the worst on the 430 because that's his track car, but the other two are perfectly happy because they get regular exercise. His 308 has 200k miles on it.

 

[warrenw]

any maintenance labeled: "engine out major" is worrisome to me.
Interesting comments from everyone. We really are blessed to have an every day car like the NSX. Easy to drive, and easy to maintain.

 

[wazari]

our local nsx group went to the ferrari dealer a few years ago,and i asked one of the salesmen about maintenance.he told me he had a 355 and said the maintenance was basically nothing,that he never had to do anything to it.i did not quite believe him.

LOL, that's funny. I still think the F355 is one of the best looking Ferrari's put into production. I went from a NSX which was bulletproof to the Ferrari. I thought I would have to take out a second on my house after 5-6 months of ownership. Cracked exhaust manifolds, timing belt, WP, valve guides, alternator, etc., all on a "healthy" car with less than 35K miles on it. After 13 months of ownership and 9K miles, it had cost me over $23,000 just in maintenance and repairs. Luckily, I was able to sell the car for almost what I had into it. Like I said before, never again.

So back in the market for a NA2 NSX. Give me that Honda reliability and engineering.

 

[angus]

Yes, if you buy the wrong F355 or 348 you'll be in for a big surprise -

The timing belt setup is a little complicated, when I did mine people said you had to degree the cams - I did mine by putting the belts back on exactly the same tooth they cam off of, I marked the old belt, the new belts and the pulleys and it runs perfectly. And Yes the water pump is garbage.

I do subscribe to the theory (at least partially) that the situation is a bit exaggerated by the horror stories you hear, My '97 355 has had no major issues (but a shit ton of little annoying ones) I did however change the headers and a few other "known issues" but for the most part it's been good (knock on wood) Also mine has 38K on it and I feel like driving it has made it better - cars that just sit are almost always trouble.

To add to this - I have never heard of one instance where a 348 or 355 actually snapped a belt so their 30K timing belt change is probably crap too - the manufacturer (dayco) says the useful lifespan is 7-9 years.

 

[A.S. Motorsport]

Ohh yes cracked manifolds on a 355 that's one you don't expect unless you really know them.
Ferrari thought that adding a back pressure regulator valve would be smart.
Yet due to rubbish quality weld's the device pops the weld's on your exhaust manifolds.

There are always little thing that need taking care of unexpectedly with Italian cars, we see that daily with new and older Maserati.
Clutches on Ferrari "F1/Cambiocorsa" transmissions are also a weakness, if you drive normally 17-20.000 miles.

City driving, a lot of reversing/parking (let alone up hill) it's can be a LOT quicker, i've seen cars come in after 10k on a clutch.
It is't a cheap one ether.

That being said Gallardo's are not gentle on there clutches ether

Angus, is right on that the Dayco belt's should last well more than 30k miles they should last 60k miles like any other.
That being said the whole issue isn't the belt it's the cheap bearings & seals used by Ferrari,
I also have the feeling machining tolerance won't be close to what Honda does.

We generally sell uprated machined tensioners assemblies and redesigned water-pumps

BTW I've seen 355 with a snapped belt, 40 bent valves isn't funny.

Then repair on these types of engines is a ridiculous prospect in itself.
It's generally cheaper to have custom parts made than to buy the OEM's.

We had a Quattroporte in that snapped it's belt.
It was cheaper to custom machine valves than to order the original ones.

Same goes with a valve adjustment on a Lamborghini the shims are scary expensive. (and than you have 48 valves to do)

- - - Updated - - -

BTW,

This is a pic of the rubber hose i was talking about:

 

[angus]

Yes, A.S. hits on a couple interesting points.

- The OEM parts are remarkably poor quality sometimes (more than sometimes) and I really do think that they are inferior to Honda parts - I guess they decided to save money in the wrong areas.

- It is actually sad that one can custom make better parts, for less money but it is true - even a throwout bearing, which they decided to make from stamped, crimped together steel - which then fails - gets replaced by a billet one which costs about the same (after retail markup) and will most likely never fail. I'm tempted to try putting OEM honda timing belt pulleys in my 355 next time.

Easy to get angry at Ferrari if you think of all the stupid stuff, sticky parts, crappy leather, piss poor design - etc. etc.

At least the clutch is ridiculously easy to change.

 

[A.S. Motorsport]

Yes, A.S. hits on a couple interesting points.

- The OEM parts are remarkably poor quality sometimes (more than sometimes) and I really do think that they are inferior to Honda parts - I guess they decided to save money in the wrong areas.

- It is actually sad that one can custom make better parts, for less money but it is true - even a throwout bearing, which they decided to make from stamped, crimped together steel - which then fails - gets replaced by a billet one which costs about the same (after retail markup) and will most likely never fail. I'm tempted to try putting OEM honda timing belt pulleys in my 355 next time.

Easy to get angry at Ferrari if you think of all the stupid stuff, sticky parts, crappy leather, piss poor design - etc. etc.

At least the clutch is ridiculously easy to change.

Perfectly said.
That's we tend to use a higher percentage of aftermarket parts with Ferrari's & Maserati's than we would with a NSX, which is compared to its peers in a other galaxy.
Belts, bearings, seals, clutch plates, etc

Italian electronics are a other rats nest you don't want to open, now F355 isn't that bad since it's very analog.
Later cars can be major PITA to solve niggles and issues in,

Twin Turbo Maserati's are in separate class, running a stupidly complicated mess of ecu's and vacuum routing (underneath the intake manifold, thus dry rotting and causing a host of issues)
This is a field in which Honda's are just plain genius a rather well thought true computer running flawlessly in a perfect bled of digital and mechanical control.

For example our Honda's don't have electric actuators, a lot of the manual labor is done trough vacuum and purely relying on physics.
So there isn't a actuator you can break on your manifold, unlike other makes (Rover V6 is a good example)

Poor leather and trim is still a issue with relatively late model Italians.