Procar Specials NSX

[cojones]

I believe you misunderstood me I am not asking details on the process of your work simply proof that you are using autoclave or and vacuum bag system

Am curious as well, just to understand the process, without giving away any proprietary secrets... I've observed some of the autoclave work (mostly dry layup) at both Lamborghini and Pagani (they have one of the biggest pressure ovens, and make stuff for other folks too).

My questions:
a) do you optimize the weave pattern to achieve the desired structural characteristics (stiffness, etc) ?
b) do you test the product from a structural (strength, stiffness, etc) and how does it compare relative to the OEM steel/aluminium component ?
c) are your products TUV approved ? having worked with other vendors (mostly P-car/AMG aftermarket), the testing/certification process is quite "retentive"

 

[mdcfab]

There is no need to answer to the DF guy.
Finally the guy should stay out of this thread and do his own work, which doesnt look not finished at the picture.

Well at this point I would say that your products are not what you say they are.
Any one that uses autoclave or even vacuum bagging would jump to prove that the process is being used. You on the other hand seem to avoid all technical questions to prove what you say is real. We could also claim autoclave and charge more for our parts. But, that would be ripping customer off. All I am asking is proof that what you claim is true If you were really autoclaving you know you could prove it with out disclosing and special trade secrets that you claim you have. So until you do I am going to say that your products are not autoclave and you are lying to your customers. You could simply take some pictures of your parts in the mold going into an autoclave or even a picture of the breather cloth before you demold the parts that shows resin bleed off.
I will post up pictures of what I am asking soon.

 

[Procar Specials]

My questions:
a) do you optimize the weave pattern to achieve the desired structural characteristics (stiffness, etc) ?
b) do you test the product from a structural (strength, stiffness, etc) and how does it compare relative to the OEM steel/aluminium component ?
c) are your products TUV approved ? having worked with other vendors (mostly P-car/AMG aftermarket), the testing/certification process is quite "retentive"

a) yes, but only for optical reason
Some of the autoclave part gets another thin cf layer at the top side for a straight and high gloss finish, like most of customers wanna have it.
Our newest hood use the same technology.

b) we have a specialist from BMW F1 center who helps us to calculate the material condition with computer program and an engineer from the technical university here in our country, who provides us too with his knowledge for some acceptable money. So, there is no blind production.

Surely, we cant provide a crash test simulation like famous car manufacturers,
but we would like to that if we had the money for it. :smile:
Last 4 years we had the NSX-R race car at the Ring with the complete Procar program and 2 strong impacts during the 24h race.
What you wanna hear?

c) we need TÜV here in germany to have the permission to drive the car.
Every 2 years we have to go for a new inspection.
The german TÜV is the strongest into the world, this guys are strictly state officials. (you can be glad you havent them in your country)

As you can see at our permanent licence plate, all parts are TÜV approved, even the RE070 tires got a special permission (no E sign) after a extensive
diving test with lot of simualtions.

No problem with the cf parts on the car.

Fact is that Procar is a small company and we cant do tests like AMG etc.
They can spend costs with 5,6 or 7 digits before they bring out parts, we cant.
You surely can imagine and respect that.

 

[Procar Specials]

What was the problem with the race car at the end?

Electronic problems, the Hondata ECU lost some contact with the cable harness.
I do hate that the new CTR, which is produced in UK, has ECU into engine bay, like Audi etc. Passenger room would be much better.
Hope that we can fix the problem for the 24h race, but also the gearbox isnt
concepted for a 24h race at the Ring.
Last year we had to change that during night, as most Civics too.
Thats what I call good quality

The NSX-R dont will race that year, Honda has stopped that project because their is no budget for it anymore.
R&D comes with a JAS CTR, so nothing spectacular from Honda side.

 

[Procar Specials]

do you test the product from a structural (strength, stiffness, etc) and how does it compare relative to the OEM steel/aluminium component ?

This car has nearly the same aluminium beam installed
Thats race car technology and there is no heavy steel beam

The carbonfiber front beam is actually under development.
It will be an autoclave part too, even if fullertons DF specialist dont believe that.

If there is an heavy impact like that, no beam, also no works beam can help

 

[Tantheman]

:smile: :thumbup

Tan

 

[Procar Specials]

parts stock list: (tuesday 13th may 08)

cf airduct (NA1 LHD)
cf rear bumper beam
cf front underbody plate
cf NA2RR hood
cf cooling panel (2002+ LHD)
cf radiator brackets
cf center console (LHD, OEM radio)
cf door inserts (LHD)
cf alternator cover
cf cruise control cover
cf side vents
cf B pillar covers
cf side mirrors
cf RWG (rear windshield garnish)
cf R rear diffusor

 

[Procar Specials]

cf center console (LHD, OEM radio)

SOLD

cf NA2RR hood

SOLD

Noel, your airbox kit was shipped yesterday, because he had holidays last monday.

Mark, next airbox is in work now, I will let you know as soon its produced.

 

[mdcfab]

a) yes, but only for optical reason
Some of the autoclave part get another thin cf layer at the top side for a straight and high gloss finish, like most of customers wanna have it.
Our newest hood use the same technology.

b) we have a specialist from BMW F1 center who helps us to calculate the material condition with computer program and an engineer from the technical university here in our country, who provides us too with his knowledge for some acceptable money. So, there is no blind production.

Surely, we cant provide a crash test simulation like famous car manufacturers,
but we would like to that if we had the money for it. :smile:
Last 4 years we had the NSX-R race car at the Ring with the complete Procar program and 2 strong impacts during the 24h race.
What you wanna hear?

c) we need TÜV here in germany to have the permission to drive the car.
Every 2 years we have to go for a new inspection.
The german TÜV is the strongest into the world, this guys are strictly state officials. (you can be glad you havent them in your country)

As you can see at our permanent licence plate, all parts are TÜV approved, even the RE070 tires got a special permission (no E sign) after a extensive
diving test with lot of simualtions.

No problem with the cf parts on the car.

Fact is that Procar is a small company and we cant do tests like AMG etc.
They can spend costs with 5,6 or 7 digits before they bring out parts, we cant.
You surely can imagine and respect that.

So you are saying you autoclave the parts then add a thin layer of carbon like a layover ??? I have never heard of that. that sounds like a waist of engineering having to spend time and money on making a compress carbon laminate then adding tons of weight by adding carbon and resin with out compacting.
I was looking through all your pictures and noticed that all the parts where I can see the back side does not look autoclave or even vacuum bagged there is no signed of resin lines left behind from the release film or even signs of there being any compacting. You post pictures of other cars but not one single picture of proof that you do autoclave or bag your parts At this point it really sounds like you are lying to your customers .. And for the record your do not have to prove it to me but you need to do it for your reputation and for all our fellow NSX Prime members who I don't like to see get ripped off.

I am considering buying one of your products and have it tested by a third party and I will post up the test results it will find out the following

A. Are you using prepreg carbon
B. Are you using epoxy resing;polyester, or vinylester resins??
C. Are you using 100% carbon which you should if you are autoclaving
D. Will get a result back of fabric to resin ration and hardness to weight
and density of laminate this will determine If what you say is true

 

[UnhuZ]

Dude,

do what you got to do.

a few thoughts:

- Is Procar stuff extremelly expensive?? NO

- Do Procar stuff cost a lot of money?? YES

- Do i have money to buy Procar stuff?? NO (at least not all of them)

- Do Procar go to DF threads and throw flames all arround?? NO


i really don't know why you continuosly keep to knock on Detlef's head with all that...

seriously...move on...there's no point on keepping at it

PS - i never bought anything from Procar or DF.... yet

I am considering buying one of your products and have it tested by a third party and I will post up the test results it will find out the following

A. Are you using prepreg carbon
B. Are you using epoxy resing;polyester, or vinylester resins??
C. Are you using 100% carbon which you should if you are autoclaving
D. Will get a result back of fabric to resin ration and hardness to weight
and density of laminate this will determine If what you say is true

 

[mdcfab]

Dude,

do what you got to do.

a few thoughts:

- Is Procar stuff extremelly expensive?? NO

- Do Procar stuff cost a lot of money?? YES

- Do i have money to buy Procar stuff?? NO (at least not all of them)

- Do Procar go to DF threads and throw flames all arround?? NO


i really don't know why you continuosly keep to knock on Detlef's head with all that...

seriously...move on...there's no point on keepping at it

PS - i never bought anything from Procar or DF.... yet

I am a very respectful person. and respect when someone has a business and it goes well for them my problem is he claims auto clave and vacuum bagging and charges more money for something he is not doing on top of that I don't see structural parts being designed properly like the new engine cross brace is there metal or special inserts or bushings to keep the carbon from cracking once the bolts are tightened and the chassis flexes ?? the main reason I want everyone to see this and the answers to this is
1. so customers are getting what they are paying for
2. so customers do not buy parts that will not work properly on there car

Please tell me how I am being rude or negative I have been contacted by a few people asking what I think and a lot of people don't have the expertise to ask the right questions. :smile:

 

[UnhuZ]

i am no carbon expert, but you seem to know carbon worst than me (by what you just said). A friend of mine work with carbon for a living... i mean, some tems of european FIA GT championship.. i've seen all kind of stuff made of Carbon and i can say that if CF parts are done properly, they will be stronger than a equal part made of metal... i've seen tests that would leave you .... ohhh...and none of it is autoclave made and very very light.

 

[socalx]

mcdfab,

I am in socal (not germany) close to you and don't want any enemies. I feel like i know you based on the respect i have for your good friend Jose.

what you are doing here shows a lack of tact, class and respect. as you (downforce) attack the higher end market (i understand you are going after porsche, ferrari and bmw) you will find the key to sucess focusing on what you sell and producing quality. It is one thing to explain to your customers what YOU sell when they are looking at downforce products and why they shouldn't buy a competitors product. It is quite another to publicly go on a competitors thread and attack them.

for the record all things being equal i would buy honda OEM parts (i have an oem honda nsx-r hood, seats, gauges, shift lights etc). I do appreciate the quality that procar offers and i think that they have a lot of customers that also appreciate that. Explain in your thread why customers should buy downforce without bashing the competition. One on one with your customers, explain to them how you are different, but come on you can't go on to the procar thread with these questions and accusations under the guise of asking what all his customers who are being ripped off want to know. I for one am a happy procar and downforce customer and have no such concerns with either.
thanks
tom

 

[docjohn]

mcdfab,

I am in socal (not germany) close to you and don't want any enemies. I feel like i know you based on the respect i have for your good friend Jose.

what you are doing here shows a lack of tact, class and respect. as you (downforce) attack the higher end market (i understand you are going after porsche, ferrari and bmw) you will find the key to sucess focusing on what you sell and producing quality. It is one thing to explain to your customers what YOU sell when they are looking at downforce products and why they shouldn't buy a competitors product. It is quite another to publicly go on a competitors thread and attack them.

for the record all things being equal i would buy honda OEM parts (i have an oem honda nsx-r hood, seats, gauges, shift lights etc). I do appreciate the quality that procar offers and i think that they have a lot of customers that also appreciate that. Explain in your thread why customers should buy downforce without bashing the competition. One on one with your customers, explain to them how you are different, but come on you can't go on to the procar thread with these questions and accusations under the guise of asking what all his customers who are being ripped off want to know. I for one am a happy procar and downforce customer and have no such concerns with either.
thanks
tom

Exactly was'nt there a thread awhile back were a disgruntled ex downforce employee was talking poop on a downforce love thread,well downforce did'nt like it ,so now you decide to derail Detlifs' thread.Best thing is to start your own thread about these ?'s of procar's constuct techniques.Strange but if people who have bought procar stuff are asking you if they got what they payed for then why would'nt you examine thier parts,or before all this interegation why did'nt you just buy a small item from Detlif and go ahead and post your analysis?

 

[mdcfab]

i am no carbon expert, but you seem to know carbon worst than me (by what you just said). A friend of mine work with carbon for a living... i mean, some tems of european FIA GT championship.. i've seen all kind of stuff made of Carbon and i can say that if CF parts are done properly, they will be stronger than a equal part made of metal... i've seen tests that would leave you .... ohhh...and none of it is autoclave made and very very light.

Yes you are correct they are probably not autoclave my point exactly not even people like this spend the money or tooling and time to do autoclave but, pro car does??? .. these teams are using either vacuum bagging or press molding.. Vacuum bagging you get 14.7 psi from our normal atmosphere which will produce fantastic parts. at a much lower cost than autoclave .. example @ swift engineering I used to be able to get autoclave time of 300.00 an hour and normal ramp up -cure -ramp down for most of there prepreg carbon materials is about 5 hours so to do 1 run in there autoclave its 1500.00 alone. You could fit 1 hood 1 bumper and like 2 center consoles.

I have over 3 years of full time composite (only) schooling I have friends and visited many aerospace composite companies like boeing northrup lockheed martin, worked as a composite tech at swift engineering build there open wheel race cars. smaller variation of indy cars or formula 1 looking cars
I have gone to school to build off road race trucks chassis,suspension design and fabricating I can show certificates pictures anything to show I am not just trying to pick on someone out of ignorance.. But, I do respect the fact that some members feel that me posting on procars thread is rude so I will stop posting here after this and move to a new thread and will start an educational thread of all the process and materials that are incorporated to composites so customers can ask their own questions :smile:
I am starting to feel like I am being negative. So Detlif I have no personal matter with you and absolutely do not have anything against your products I think visually your products look fantastic. I honestly just have seen to many people ripped off by customers being lied to on how parts are made. Well I have said my piece.

http://www.sampe.org/events/2008LongBeach.aspx
P.S. anyone that is interested in composites this web site is top notch
the trade show in long beach next week is fantastic I'll be there learning more :smile:

 

[docjohn]

I'm sure a thread devoted to the structure and manufactering of cf parts will be well received as it is the rage lately.I for one would not know 20$ Chinese cf from Pagani blessed by the Pope cf:wink:

 

[lunchman]

Sam,

It comes off as very unprofessional and downright rude for a competing vendor to criticize, question and attack another vendor's products in that vendor's group buy/for sale thread. Procar's got products for sale; questions from potential buyers and answers from the vendor should be all that is allowed in these group buy threads. At this point I'm surprised the moderator hasn't stepped in and put a stop to it.

I've purchased from Downforce, considered you folks a class act, but given the replies in this thread I'm beginning to have second thoughts. I've not (yet) purchased from Procar, but have considered doing so and will continue to do so.

Please think twice about what you post in this thread and consider its effects on the company you represent.

 

[Ko-nsx]

My .02, i have downforce and procar products on my car. I am happy with both. If somebody told me downforce or procar was rippin me off, i'd still live. Both seem to reputable companies and i like the products i have purchased. These CF prices are expensive in my opinion, but so is running a business, so i respect the hustle.

My biggest complaint to a thread that is started like this one is that both parties are making a reasonable profit on the products the sell us(fucking us or not), but have not given a single DIME to the website. Then to post threads like this one and start pissing matches with their competitors, why should anyone take either of you seriously???

Are you here as a vendor or enthusiast, or both?

So if DF proves Procar wrong or vice versa, the winner of the pissin' should at least contribute $5 fonky-assed dollars, to make me feel like you went through all this trouble because you are an enthusiast and you want to offer the nsx community a great product at an afforable price.

And please hurry up with the pissin', because the CF triangle brace and the CF hepi filter thing you people sell are calling me!!!!:biggrin:

 

[UnhuZ]

See... that is the way all this should had begin :wink:

I am starting to feel like I am being negative. So Detlif I have no personal matter with you and absolutely do not have anything against your products I think visually your products look fantastic. I honestly just have seen to many people ripped off by customers being lied to on how parts are made. Well I have said my piece.

http://www.sampe.org/events/2008LongBeach.aspx
P.S. anyone that is interested in composites this web site is top notch
the trade show in long beach next week is fantastic I'll be there learning more :smile:

 

[UnhuZ]

And please hurry up with the pissin', because the CF triangle brace and the CF hepi filter thing you people sell are calling me!!!!:biggrin:

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

you seem like a patient in need :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

i will end now my side of all this offtopic stuff

 

[Procar Specials]

I have over 3 years of full time composite (only) schooling I have friends and visited many aerospace composite companies like boeing northrup lockheed martin, worked as a composite tech at swift engineering build there open wheel race cars. smaller variation of indy cars or formula 1 looking cars

Wow, impressive carrier, now you are DF ?
But you are sure that you havent inhalled too much composite glue over the years? :biggrin:

I am considering buying one of your products and have it tested by a third party and I will post up the test results it will find out the following

You should do that, so you can learn. :biggrin:
But surely you cant, YOU AND YOUR COMPANY WHICH YOU REPRESENT ARE THE BEST.
Thats the reason why your represented company copied my spoiler.
You dont believe it ?.......please ask Vance Hu.
You want that I do post more 'background knowledge?

As you can read, many people dont like your presentation here.
You can move on doing that, no problem.

I am starting to feel like I am being negative. So Detlif I have no personal matter with you and absolutely do not have anything against your products I think visually your products look fantastic. I honestly just have seen to many people ripped off by customers being lied to on how parts are made. Well I have said my piece.

Have you ever read that someone was ripped of from Procar?
Maybe you confuse my name with Dali.

 

[Procar Specials]

mcdfab,

I am in socal (not germany) close to you and don't want any enemies. I feel like i know you based on the respect i have for your good friend Jose.

what you are doing here shows a lack of tact, class and respect. as you (downforce) attack the higher end market (i understand you are going after porsche, ferrari and bmw) you will find the key to sucess focusing on what you sell and producing quality. It is one thing to explain to your customers what YOU sell when they are looking at downforce products and why they shouldn't buy a competitors product. It is quite another to publicly go on a competitors thread and attack them.

for the record all things being equal i would buy honda OEM parts (i have an oem honda nsx-r hood, seats, gauges, shift lights etc). I do appreciate the quality that procar offers and i think that they have a lot of customers that also appreciate that. Explain in your thread why customers should buy downforce without bashing the competition. One on one with your customers, explain to them how you are different, but come on you can't go on to the procar thread with these questions and accusations under the guise of asking what all his customers who are being ripped off want to know. I for one am a happy procar and downforce customer and have no such concerns with either.
thanks
tom

Thanks Tom, thats the point.

 

[ChristianNSX]

I have over 3 years of full time composite (only) schooling I have friends and visited many aerospace composite companies like boeing northrup lockheed martin, worked as a composite tech at swift engineering build there open wheel race cars. smaller variation of indy cars or formula 1 looking cars

Wow, impressive carrier, now you are DF ?
But you are sure that you havent inhalled too much composite glue over the years?

I like your sense of humor, but indead, there is some truth behind that :wink:

Sorry to say but your parts have a magical attraction to me since I have seen
them by myself.
(My wife was very impressed from your last weekends presentation too)
Please go on and dont waiste your time with that guy, he seems to have too much time and need to boost business :biggrin:

 

[Procar Specials]

Nigel, pm about the hood screen sended.
The hood duct is looking like that
with and without the hood screen.

Let me know if you have more questions

 

[Procar Specials]

jsottile
NSX-R gauge cluster conversion kit arrived safe.
We will start our work tomorrow and post some pictures after all is prepared.
Please check your pm, there is still a question about the tire size.
Thanks