RIP Ronald Reagan

[nkb]

Everybody has their warts, some people's blemishes are bigger and uglier than others. Ronald Reagan had his share.

Those of you that are calling him a great man, or a hero, need to take all his pros and cons into consideration. I think that elevating him to a heroic status will automatically cause people who don't agree to come up with reasons why he shouldn't be.

While Reagan was at the helm during a huge economic surge for the USA, and the downfall of the Iron Curtain, you have to weigh that against the unprecedented spending (especially military) and incredible increase in the deficit, in addition to the fact that he did not seem to be in full control of his facilities during his 2nd term.

This has nothing to do with hatred, it is just stating facts, or generally held beliefs.

To play devil's advocate, and take it to the extreme, how should one remember Adolf Hitler?

He engineered one of the biggest economic turnarounds in history, created jobs for a country that was in a deep depression, and raised national pride for a downtrodden people.
Or should that be balanced with the fact that he murdered millions of people, invaded neighboring countries like it was going out of style, and caused the largest war ever?

Of course you have to list both positives and negatives. Most people will agree that Hitler was anything but a great man.

DISCLAIMER: In no way am I implying that Ronald Reagan is in any way similar to Hitler. I am just illustrating a point.

 

[FGG]

Thank you Ronald Reagan for serving this Country at a time when our national self-esteem was low. You were a national cheerleader for this country when we needed to shed the milk-toast past. By your quest to rid the world of Communist influence you dared tread where liberals fear to go (and yet make unceassing demands to enjoy). May you (and the MANY LAWYERS-contrary to the sophmoric and ignorant statement of the son of sax), enjoy your eternal repose with our Lord in paradise.

 

[SOLOTYM]

Thank you Ronald Reagan for serving this Country at a time when our national self-esteem was low. You were a national cheerleader for this country when we needed to shed the milk-toast past. By your quest to rid the world of Communist influence you dared tread where liberals fear to go (and yet make unceassing demands to enjoy). May you (and the MANY LAWYERS-contrary to the sophmoric and ignorant statement of the son of sax), enjoy your eternal repose with our Lord in paradise.

Very well put...thank you!

 

[lemansnsx]

Thank you Ronald Reagan for serving this Country at a time when our national self-esteem was low. You were a national cheerleader for this country when we needed to shed the milk-toast past. By your quest to rid the world of Communist influence you dared tread where liberals fear to go (and yet make unceassing demands to enjoy). May you (and the MANY LAWYERS-contrary to the sophmoric and ignorant statement of the son of sax), enjoy your eternal repose with our Lord in paradise.

Thank you - nicely put.

To you others - did your mothers never teach you "if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all"? Or to have proper respect, especially for the recently departed? I can't believe the rudeness of hijacking someone else's thread to put forth your own political agenda under the guise of telling both sides of the story - there was no "story" to this thread - just an expression of sorrow at the passing of a great man. shame on you.

 

[Forums Nazi]

The statement about taking a "laxative" is b/c maybe you ought to lighten up and lay-off the Gore/Dean like hatrid posting.

Hmmm... Let me go check who posted the statement of hatred towards Gore and Dean in this topic...

 

[Brian2by2]

Hmmm... Let me go check who posted the statement of hatred towards Gore and Dean in this topic...

Go for it...I'm still trying to find it myself.

Thank you Ronald Reagan for serving this Country at a time when our national self-esteem was low. You were a national cheerleader for this country when we needed to shed the milk-toast past. By your quest to rid the world of Communist influence you dared tread where liberals fear to go (and yet make unceassing demands to enjoy). May you (and the MANY LAWYERS-contrary to the sophmoric and ignorant statement of the son of sax), enjoy your eternal repose with our Lord in paradise.

Beautifully said.

Of course we can point out flaws and mistakes in any presidency and this is why we have political parties...and Reagan is one of the few presidents supported by 95% of the Republicans as well as quite a few liberals.

 

[nkb]

I don't think anyone would have said anything negative if the line had simply read "We mourn the passing of Ronald Reagan" or something along those lines.

When someone proclaims a politician was a great man, it is assumed they are basing that judgement on what he did in his political capacity (unless they knew him personally, which I doubt in this case). Is that not a political statement?

There is no shame in speaking your opinion, and wanting to set the record straight. And whether the person in question just passed away is immaterial.

 

[lemansnsx]

When someone proclaims a politician was a great man, it is assumed they are basing that judgement on what he did in his political capacity (unless they knew him personally, which I doubt in this case). Is that not a political statement?

There is no shame in speaking your opinion, and wanting to set the record straight. And whether the person in question just passed away is immaterial.

That's a pretty dangerous assumption. The original poster didn't say "Ronald Reagan, great republican" or "Ronald Reagan great President" or "Ronald Reagan Ruler of the Free World" - all he said was "great man, what a shame". Seems to me that other people chose to jump in and ruin a simple memorial by bringing politics and negative observations into it.
As for shame in speaking your opinion - no, perhaps not. But knowing the time and place is paramount. This thread wasn't it.

 

[nkb]

That's a pretty dangerous assumption.

No, I think that is a very safe assumption. The assumption is that Brian2by2 did not know Ronald Reagan personally. And the other assumption is that he was not referring to him as a great man based on his acting career. Again, relatively safe, in my opinion.

I will even go so far as to claim that if someone had started listing his positive political accomplishments (restoration of national pride, economy, fall of the Iron Curtain), none of the pro-Reagan posters would have jumped in with a "Hey, let's keep politics out of this".

 

[Black Knight]

indeed he was a good man...as a result, stock market will stop for a day this friday for his funeral

why? cuz he's the only sitting president to visit the NYSE

 

[lemansnsx]

No, I think that is a very safe assumption. The assumption is that Brian2by2 did not know Ronald Reagan personally.

Actually, no, you said that "When someone proclaims a politician was a great man, it is assumed they are basing that judgement on what he did in his political capacity". So you assumed that the original poster was referring to RR the politician. He could just as well have been referring to him as a great actor, great husband, whatever - or he could just have meant Ronald Reagan the MAN.
The point remains: this thread wasn't the place for the negative posts about Reagan - but I guess good manners are no longer part of the curriculum. People of character would have left the thread alone even if they personally didn't like the man or his politics out of simple respect for the others who felt the need to post a memorial tribute.

 

[dlongo]

I was saddened to hear of President Reagan’s death, though given his reported state of health it really was for the best. Ronald Reagan was the president of my childhood. I was still in elementary school when the 1984 elections came around, and it was the first time I took some real interest in politics. Well, at school the election was used to teach about the political process and we had pretend voting, and everyone wanted to vote for Reagan. Poor Mondale, I don’t think he even got one of us ten year old kids to pretend vote for him. It was funny the effect his personality had on us, a bunch of kids. We were actually excited about the election. I remember watching the election results on TV too, Reagan swept 49 states that year. It just seems unreal given the current state of politics.

I even used to have a poster of Reagan in my room with the caption “RONBO!.” It had Reagan’s head pasted on Rambo’s body, and he was firing off a machine gun like a madman. I realized even then that the poster was making fun of his cold warrior policies, but as a little kid I didn’t care, I thought it was hilarious.

The Reagan moment that affected me most was his speech after the Challenger explosion. That was the first national tragedy I was old enough to remember, and the first time I can remember taking real comfort in the words of a presidential speech. (All prime-time presidential speeches up until that point were just an inconvenience in life… as they preemted the Dukes of Hazzard on TV!). It definitely changed my perception of the office of President, and what I expected a president to be.

As I grew older I realized Reagan’s flaws too. I love that Saturday Night live sketch where Reagan is portrayed in one instant as the grandfatherly figure snapping a photo shoot with a bunch of girl scouts, and in the next instant he is shrewdly micromanaging arms deals. Even now people debate over which was the “real” Reagan. Probably a little of both. Iran contra and the deficit were big news of course, but I do believe his policies played a significant role in ending the Soviet Union. Members of the Kremlin from that era have stated so, quite candidly.

I was watching Chris Matthews on TV, and if you don’t know, Matthews was a speech writer for the Democrats in the 80’s. Matthews was talking about how Reagan would sometimes show up at Democratic Party Dinners at night in Washington and start working the room. Can you imagine walking into a room full of your political enemies and sitting down to talk? It sure wouldn’t happen today, but Reagan fostered a mutual respect then that is sorely missing now.

So while I am not a Republican today, Reagan remains for me, the yarstick by which all presidents since are measured (and they don’t fare nearly as well). He was, in my opinion, a great leader and uniter at a time the country really needed one. May God bless Ronald Reagan, and may he rest in Peace.

 

[Brian2by2]

I was saddened to hear of President Reagan’s death, though given his reported state of health it really was for the best. Ronald Reagan was the president of my childhood. I was still in elementary school when the 1984 elections came around, and it was the first time I took some real interest in politics. Well, at school the election was used to teach about the political process and we had pretend voting, and everyone wanted to vote for Reagan. Poor Mondale, I don’t think he even got one of us ten year old kids to pretend vote for him. It was funny the effect his personality had on us, a bunch of kids. We were actually excited about the election. I remember watching the election results on TV too, Reagan swept 49 states that year. It just seems unreal given the current state of politics.

I even used to have a poster of Reagan in my room with the caption “RONBO!.” It had Reagan’s head pasted on Rambo’s body, and he was firing off a machine gun like a madman. I realized even then that the poster was making fun of his cold warrior policies, but as a little kid I didn’t care, I thought it was hilarious.

The Reagan moment that affected me most was his speech after the Challenger explosion. That was the first national tragedy I was old enough to remember, and the first time I can remember taking real comfort in the words of a presidential speech. (All prime-time presidential speeches up until that point were just an inconvenience in life… as they preemted the Dukes of Hazzard on TV!). It definitely changed my perception of the office of President, and what I expected a president to be.

As I grew older I realized Reagan’s flaws too. I love that Saturday Night live sketch where Reagan is portrayed in one instant as the grandfatherly figure snapping a photo shoot with a bunch of girl scouts, and in the next instant he is shrewdly micromanaging arms deals. Even now people debate over which was the “real” Reagan. Probably a little of both. Iran contra and the deficit were big news of course, but I do believe his policies played a significant role in ending the Soviet Union. Members of the Kremlin from that era have stated so, quite candidly.

I was watching Chris Matthews on TV, and if you don’t know, Matthews was a speech writer for the Democrats in the 80’s. Matthews was talking about how Reagan would sometimes show up at Democratic Party Dinners at night in Washington and start working the room. Can you imagine walking into a room full of your political enemies and sitting down to talk? It sure wouldn’t happen today, but Reagan fostered a mutual respect then that is sorely missing now.

So while I am not a Republican today, Reagan remains for me, the yarstick by which all presidents since are measured (and they don’t fare nearly as well). He was, in my opinion, a great leader and uniter at a time the country really needed one. May God bless Ronald Reagan, and may he rest in Peace.

That brought a tear to my eye While I was only 2 when he was elected, I too was interested in listening to him speak throughout grade-school. He had a great character and almost made me wish he was my other grandpa (who had died when my mom was a baby).

As far as his political accomplishments: not many presidents had to go through what he had to go through. He was one of the first presidents to have to deal with and resolve a possible nuclear confrontation. Notice I said "resolve" and not just "deal with"

I don't know why people are criticizing him for spending on military. What would you have the president spend money on with the USSR a constant threat?? Just like the people now who don't want to spend on military now...our boys can't fight with potato peelers and matches...I guess thats what makes me a republican. I sometimes just can't understand the logic, but I accept others opinions (I just don't get them though )

And if I recall correctly, didn't the economic 'structure' implemented by Reagan (hence 'Reaganomics') start to take shape towards the end of the Bush/beginning of the Clinton administration?? (I don't know...thats why I'm asking).

Anyways, in my opinion, he was a great man, leader, husband, father, actor, whatever. He did it all. When my fiancee's very liberal parents wept at the news of his death, that showed me the impact he had on everyone, and not just Republicans.

 

[saxonsaxon]

R.R. and his legacy

While I feel sorry that he has died I would like people to remeber him for all his actions. Since there are many on this board who have illustrated the positive aspects of his presidency let me point out the negative, since I think it is importnat to remeber R.R. for who he was:

1. Iron Contra : selling weapons to Iran who was our enemy number one at the time - this kind of dealing was proohibited by our government, he broke the law and got away with it. Now, the money made of selling those weapons were used to fund terrorist actions on the border between Nicaragua and Honduras aimed at destabilizing democratically elected government of Nicaragua. One of the action of US gov. at the time was mining the ports of Nicaragua - a terrorist activity under international law.

2. Helping the government of El Salvador to fight leftist partisants in its own country. Help included all kinds of arms and training of the death squads. The end result close to 70.000 dead, including 12 American nuns who were raped and torured by the death squads which were directly organized and financed by the governmet with the money from the US. Many books have been written on the subject. Films that come to mind: Salvador, Men with Guns.

3. Guatemala: same scenario as above, close to 100.000 peasnats and indians killed in the name of democracy and fighting communism. Again with the blessin of good old Ronnie.

4. The debt- under R.R. it went from 1 to 4 trillion (by the way it is now a around 7 trillion), we will have to pay it back. Was he a good president??? Not in my booK.

 

[Brian2by2]

Re: R.R. and his legacy

While I feel sorry that he has died I would like people to remeber him for all his actions. Since there are many on this board who have illustrated the positive aspects of his presidency let me point out the negative, since I think it is importnat to remeber R.R. for who he was:

1. Iron Contra : selling weapons to Iran who was our enemy number one at the time - this kind of dealing was proohibited by our government, he broke the law and got away with it. Now, the money made of selling those weapons were used to fund terrorist actions on the border between Nicaragua and Honduras aimed at destabilizing democratically elected government of Nicaragua. One of the action of US gov. at the time was mining the ports of Nicaragua - a terrorist activity under international law.

2. Helping the government of El Salvador to fight leftist partisants in its own country. Help included all kinds of arms and training of the death squads. The end result close to 70.000 dead, including 12 American nuns who were raped and torured by the death squads which were directly organized and financed by the governmet with the money from the US. Many books have been written on the subject. Films that come to mind: Salvador, Men with Guns.

3. Guatemala: same scenario as above, close to 100.000 peasnats and indians killed in the name of democracy and fighting communism. Again with the blessin of good old Ronnie.

4. The debt- under R.R. it went from 1 to 4 trillion (by the way it is now a around 7 trillion), we will have to pay it back. Was he a good president??? Not in my booK.

Yak Yak Yak, not enough fact.

You talk a great game but you need to back it up. Your quoting some pretty specific numbers but you show us no proof.

 

[lemansnsx]

Re: Re: R.R. and his legacy

Yak Yak Yak, not enough fact.

You talk a great game but you need to back it up. Your quoting some pretty specific numbers but you show us no proof.

You're letting yourself get sucked in. This stuff had no place in this thread to begin with and now we're just encouraging them.

 

[Brian2by2]

Re: Re: Re: R.R. and his legacy

You're letting yourself get sucked in. This stuff had no place in this thread to begin with and now we're just encouraging them.

I agree that it has no place whatsoever and I believe I may have been one of the first to say so, however, if they have the chutzpah to come hi-jack this thread and make it a political argument rather than mourning the death of a great MAN, they'd better back it up with credible resources.

 

[steveny]

"Today we did what we had to do. They counted on America to be passive. They counted wrong." - Ronald Reagan In response to terrorism by Libya (1986)

 

[nkb]

And if I recall correctly, didn't the economic 'structure' implemented by Reagan (hence 'Reaganomics') start to take shape towards the end of the Bush/beginning of the Clinton administration?? (I don't know...thats why I'm asking).

The basic premise of Reaganomics was spend now, worry about debt later. That is why the economy went into a recession around or shortly after the end of Reagan's 2nd term (I don't remember exact years). Eventually, you have to stop amassing debt, and start paying it off (that's what the Soviet Union finally learned).

By the way, I believe the term "Reaganomics" was more of a joke. I think it was coined to make fun of the fact that Reagan lived in his own economic reality, kind of like people who run up their credit cards so they can have fun now, and don't worry about the future.

 

[nkb]

Re: Re: R.R. and his legacy

Yak Yak Yak, not enough fact.

You talk a great game but you need to back it up. Your quoting some pretty specific numbers but you show us no proof.

Are you saying that he is making up the fact that the federal deficit rose at an unprecedented rate during Reagan's terms, breaking all records? That is an undisputed fact.

 

[Brian2by2]

Re: Re: Re: R.R. and his legacy

Are you saying that he is making up the fact that the federal deficit rose at an unprecedented rate during Reagan's terms, breaking all records? That is an undisputed fact.

Funny how you chose only one of the many "facts" that he gave to criticize my desire for proof.

As mentioned, I believe that Reagan "spent now, worried later" in order to accumulate enough of a nuclear 'stockpile' to scare the USSR into recession and eventually play a vital role in its disintegration.

I just hope that when Bill Clinton finally passes, all the HSCPrime (hehe) members remember that he and his wife should have been arrested for insider trading, he should have been arrested for possesion of marijuana and lying under oath, and she should have enough of a moral standard to leave him after he cheated on her God knows how many times right under nose. Now he's a winner

 

[huckster]

remind me to never have my obit posted on nsxprime

everyone's a critic these days. so easy to be against everything instead of for something.

im for what happened under President Reagan's watch. my children are safer.

I do not pretend to have enough information to second guess many of the decisions made by presidents. We are all in an information vacuum when it comes to armchair quarterbacking the oval office.

As a side note, recently I had the chance to meet former president Bush sr. He was actually very charismatic in person. Not what i would have guessed.

 

[nkb]

Re: Re: Re: Re: R.R. and his legacy

Funny how you chose only one of the many "facts" that he gave to criticize my desire for proof.

So, are you disputing that Iran-Contra happened? That is also a fact. And it is a fact that the Commander-in-Chief happened to suffer from selective amnesia about what occurred.

As mentioned, I believe that Reagan "spent now, worried later" in order to accumulate enough of a nuclear 'stockpile' to scare the USSR into recession and eventually play a vital role in its disintegration.

Get your facts straight. We had enough nuclear stockpile before Reagan ever was elected, and we probably still do. If anything, it might be argued that the "threat" of a nuclear attack defense shield (Star Wars) made a difference. However, 20 years and trillions of dollars later, we are left with a system that has yet to work and is essentially useless. If that really caused the Soviet Union to fold, then Reagan was a great bluffer.

Of course, some might argue that what happened in the USSR was inevitable anyway, and that their economic system was doomed to fail after decades of arms race.

I just hope that when Bill Clinton finally passes, all the HSCPrime (hehe) members remember that he and his wife should have been arrested for insider trading, he should have been arrested for possesion of marijuana and lying under oath, and she should have enough of a moral standard to leave him after he cheated on her God knows how many times right under nose. Now he's a winner

You lost me on this one. What does Bill Clinton have to do with Ronald Reagan dying? How is that statement relevant at all? Are you bringing him up because he is a Democrat? Who is being political now?

 

[Brian2by2]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: R.R. and his legacy

You lost me on this one. What does Bill Clinton have to do with Ronald Reagan dying? How is that statement relevant at all? Are you bringing him up because he is a Democrat? Who is being political now?

You are your liberal buddies come in here screaming about how pitiful Reagan really was in a thread dedicated to mourning his death and honoring him as a President. There was no need to turn this into a political debate but I guess some of you felt it was absolutely necessary to do so. I'm simply stating that when the next liberal President dies and you are either grieving or wish to acknowledge him as a decent human being, I hope someone completely rips him apart and turns what is supposed to be a peaceful rememberance of him into a screaming reality of how morally, ethically and politically shallow this man really was. Same goes for anyone that you happen to have had respect for that passes away.

To me, Reagan was a hero. If you beg to differ and don't have anything nice to say about a man who died after fighting a horrible disease for God knows how long after giving away 8 years of his life in the most critical job in the world, not to mention is time as governor of Cali, then start your own damn thread about it and get off of this one.

 

[SOLOTYM]

"Today we did what we had to do. They counted on America to be passive. They counted wrong." - Ronald Reagan In response to terrorism by Libya (1986)

Great quote Steve! Does anyone else have some quotes they remember?

I remember when he was shot, and asked the doctors if "they were republicans"? — Classic Regan!