Semi-DIY Mild Engine Build for FI

[Mac Attack]

Thanks for the suggestion. Yes, WD40 does evaporate, but I've read in a lot of places that WD40 is OK for a short time (like between teardown and machining). Longer periods of time would require something thicker like assembly lube to make sure the bores stay covered (or use regular oil and engine bags to reduce the chance of moisture intrusion). Then, before assembly, the bores need to be cleaned off since most rings should be broken in "dry," well, with just the normal engine oiling system.

Most engine builders use WD40 while honing and cleaning the bores later. ATF is used too when cleaning. Of course, everyone has an opinion about what is "best" :smile: And, as slow as I'm going, I probably should wipe off the WD40 and coat the walls with regular oil....

Dave

 

[L_RAO]

One suggestion I would like to add since you have the cylinder heads off is to index the spark plugs.

The last few years I've been indexing with the flame propogating towards the exhaust side.

It's free HP.

 

[gsrboy]

Thanks for the suggestion. Yes, WD40 does evaporate, but I've read in a lot of places that WD40 is OK for a short time (like between teardown and machining). Longer periods of time would require something thicker like assembly lube to make sure the bores stay covered (or use regular oil and engine bags to reduce the chance of moisture intrusion). Then, before assembly, the bores need to be cleaned off since most rings should be broken in "dry," well, with just the normal engine oiling system.

Most engine builders use WD40 while honing and cleaning the bores later. ATF is used too when cleaning. Of course, everyone has an opinion about what is "best" :smile: And, as slow as I'm going, I probably should wipe off the WD40 and coat the walls with regular oil....

Dave

Use some cheap non-synthetic non detergent oil.

 

[Mac Attack]

Use some cheap non-synthetic non detergent oil.

When I get it back after honing, I understand I need to use clean white lint-free rags and wipe down with WD40 or ATF until the rags don't pick anything else up.

Do you have a recommendation for the cheap oil to use for a light coating? I was thinking even my lawnmower engine oil still has some detergents in it....

I remember some of the earliest threads on here were owners trying to duplicate the special Honda NSX break-in oil :wink: I'll have to search for some of those, just out of curiousity again.

But, I was just going to follow this procedure for break-in:
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

One suggestion I would like to add since you have the cylinders off is to index the spark plugs.

The last few years I've been indexing with the flame propogating towards the exhaust side.

It's free HP.

Thanks for the idea. I'll add that to my list of things to do when reassembling. I've got a pad of paper where I'm taking notes on things to buy, how it came apart, random thoughts, etc. Then I can go back over it like a checklist before startup to make sure I didn't miss anything. I think that's essential for a project like this!

I still don't know what plugs I'm going to use. I was thinking the NGK BKR7E's V Power Copper plugs as this will be FI after break-in. Normal heat range and 0.044" gap for now until boosted.

I will check one of the plugs with this method though after break-in:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showpost.php?p=464031&postcount=12

 

[gsrboy]

When I get it back after honing, I understand I need to use clean white lint-free rags and wipe down with WD40 or ATF until the rags don't pick anything else up.

Do you have a recommendation for the cheap oil to use for a light coating? I was thinking even my lawnmower engine oil still has some detergents in it....

I remember some of the earliest threads on here were owners trying to duplicate the special Honda NSX break-in oil :wink: I'll have to search for some of those, just out of curiousity again.

But, I was just going to follow this procedure for break-in:
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

http://www.walmart.com/ip/ACCEL-Non-Detergent-30W-Motor-Oil-1-qt/17134765

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/ac...gent-motor-oil/_/N-255s?itemIdentifier=692186

I used the auto zone one on my build. I actually liked the walmart one more on my previous builds.

 

[Mac Attack]

Awesome. Thanks!

 

[BATMANs]

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/eal.aspx

And yes I did use that break-in method for the GTO and I'll be doing the same for the NSX. It's a little trickier with a boosted engine.

When I get it back after honing, I understand I need to use clean white lint-free rags and wipe down with WD40 or ATF until the rags don't pick anything else up.

Do you have a recommendation for the cheap oil to use for a light coating? I was thinking even my lawnmower engine oil still has some detergents in it....

I remember some of the earliest threads on here were owners trying to duplicate the special Honda NSX break-in oil :wink: I'll have to search for some of those, just out of curiousity again.

But, I was just going to follow this procedure for break-in:
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm




Thanks for the idea. I'll add that to my list of things to do when reassembling. I've got a pad of paper where I'm taking notes on things to buy, how it came apart, random thoughts, etc. Then I can go back over it like a checklist before startup to make sure I didn't miss anything. I think that's essential for a project like this!

I still don't know what plugs I'm going to use. I was thinking the NGK BKR7E's V Power Copper plugs as this will be FI after break-in. Normal heat range and 0.044" gap for now until boosted.

I will check one of the plugs with this method though after break-in:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showpost.php?p=464031&postcount=12

 

[Mac Attack]

Thanks,

I've already got the Clevite77 bearing guard I'll be using on all the bearings and oil pump.

It should be about as good as any. Torco, Clevite77, Amsoil, and other name brand assembly lubes are all probably about the same.


It's interesting that all of these are designed to dissolve in oil once up to temp, but I've seen in a lot of builds where this crap is applied LIBERALLY! I don't want to put too much, yet obviously not enough....

 

[Tech7042]

Impressive build! Cant wait to see it done.

 

[Mac Attack]

Thank you!

I set up my cheapy Summit Racing dial bore indicator so that it read "0" at 3.550" with a micrometer. I didn't have a set ring but this should work fine:

Getting this shot was a little tricky :wink:



You have to be careful and spend a lot of time wiggling it around to get accurate and repeatable measurements! After measuring each bank of cylinders, I would stick the dial bore indicator back into the micrometer to make sure it was still set correctly.

Cylinder bore sizes are shown on page 7-13 of the SM. Mine measured between 3.543 and 3.544", or still within the "New" specification. Taper was almost non-existent at ~0.0005", and the worst "ovalizing" I measured at the top of the cylinders was ~0.0015". Not bad after 130k miles I guess... I'll check it again when it comes back from machining.

 

[Mac Attack]

Just wanted to add that I've never used a dial bore indicator before. It's easy to figure out and use. Just wanted one so I could do my own bore measurement. It can also be used to measure camshaft and crankshaft runout with the appropriate holder (I'll do that later). Then, that just leaves the camshaft, main, and rod bearing clearances can be confirmed later with plastigauge.

That's the plan.

 

[sparky]

One suggestion I would like to add since you have the cylinder heads off is to index the spark plugs.

The last few years I've been indexing with the flame propogating towards the exhaust side.

It's free HP.

sounds interesting, but what does it all mean!
Can you explain pls?

 

[L_RAO]

sounds interesting, but what does it all mean!
Can you explain pls?

Indexing the spark plugs simply means you have all the spark plugs facing the same direction/orientation in the combustion chamber. Little things like that and variances between fuel injectors (imagine all 6 of your fuel injectors spraying within +/-0.01% of each other vs. +/-10% of each other) all add up to a few HP here and there.

And indexing spark plugs is easiest (for obvious reasons) when the cylinder heads are off.

 

[DDozier]

Indexing the spark plugs simply means you have all the spark plugs facing the same direction/orientation in the combustion chamber. Little things like that and variances between fuel injectors (imagine all 6 of your fuel injectors spraying within +/-0.01% of each other vs. +/-10% of each other) all add up to a few HP here and there.

And indexing spark plugs is easiest (for obvious reasons) when the cylinder heads are off.

Top Tip: If you are indexing your plugs do so over many sets of plugs to get them perfect and setup at least one or two more sets for future plug changes. Just mark the boxes for the best plug location and your ready for the next plug change. You can do this with the heads on but it does take a lot of time.

Dave

 

[Mac Attack]

Good idea. Those copper NGK's are just a couple $ too so it makes sense to buy and index a bunch now.

I will have all of the spark plugs removed during engine assembly.

 

[sparky]

OK thanks ... I'll add indexing to my to-do list. May not be much hp gain, but it's easy enough to do. If it's important they all are at same angle, I'm wondering if there a preferred orientation for them all?

As for equalizing fuel injectors ... how does that happen ? I don't think they can be adjusted, so is it just about keeping them all clean?

 

[L_RAO]

OK thanks ... I'll add indexing to my to-do list. May not be much hp gain, but it's easy enough to do. If it's important they all are at same angle, I'm wondering if there a preferred orientation for them all?

Different engine builders or tuners will tell you different things. I personally like to have the opening facing the quench area of the exhaust side. I don't want to expose the spark plug to the incoming air/fuel mixture. Others like having the spark plug facing that same exhaust side for flame propagation.

As for equalizing fuel injectors ... how does that happen ? I don't think they can be adjusted, so is it just about keeping them all clean?

If you are having your current fuel injectors cleaned/balanced, the cleaning company will do their best to get them to flow within 1% of each other.

If you're buying new injectors from someone like Injector Dynamics, they match them during their testing...their website has some pretty impressive reading.

 

[sparky]

great info Mr RAO, tks

 

[Mac Attack]

All right. On to ordering new identical replacement bearings since nothing seems to be out of whack.

This is where your organizational skills will be put to the test. Page 7-8 of the SM shows you how to find the main and rod bearings from your particular machined components. Of course, the colors are also shown on the individual bearings too.

Obviously, first I recorded on paper the colors of each bearing. Then, I went to the book to confirm. I won't go through the book procedure, but the first thing I noticed was that the "red" color I thought I had on my bearings must really be "brown" per block, crank, and rod hieroglyphics. OK, fine.

Now, after correcting for the discrepancy between red and brown colors, a total of five bearings (a mix of either crank or rod bearings), did not match up. Like, a brown color or my bearing should have been a green bearing per the stampings/book (four of my rod bearings were like this). And, a brown bearing on my main should have been a green bearing per the stampings/book.

Is this common for our engines? I guess it is part of the human interface and "blueprinting" when these things were put together. I think I'll just order some extra bearings from Acura just in case when I put it together and check final clearances. They're just $10 each....

The US SM just gives a table of ascending bearing thicknesses without their values, but this thread actually gives the thickness for the rod bearings:

http://nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106039
According to JDM NSX service manual,

Connecting rod bearing (thickness: 1.5mm)

Color tolerance:
Red -0.012~-0.015mm
Pink -0.009~-0.012mm
Yellow -0.006~-0.009mm
Green -0.003~-0.006mm
Brown 0~-0.003mm
Black +0.003~0mm
Blue +0.006~+0.003mm


Per page 7-7 of the SM, I plan on putting it back together on the looser side of the tolerance range. I've heard previously that higher revving engines in general should have slightly larger bearing clearances. Like what TiDave suggested in this thread:
http://nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=118814

For my final assembly, I will measure clearances with a micrometer and dial bore indicator, and also plastigage as a backup since I'm a master of none of these methods :biggrin:

Also, here's another thread just to be complete. It has a good discussion on bearing tolerances and manufacturing:
http://nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29744

 

[Mac Attack]

I visited one of two potential local machine shops last Friday. The other one was closed for the day, but it is the one I'm leaning towards after talking with them on the phone and word-of-mouth from some friends.



In the meantime, I went ahead and cleaned up the heads a little bit. I've heard on the internet that machine shops spend a lot of time hot-tanking and cleaning heads, so I figured I would help out. You can never be too clean when rebuilding an engine, and the Honda heads are pretty complicated with a lot of passageways, and nooks and crannies for crap to hide in.

Used Purple Power (same thing as Simple Green) for the first initial brushing, then a good rinse. Next was an engine degreaser for the tougher parts, then rinse. Another application of Purple Power, brush, and rinse. Then finally some Dawn soap, brush, and steam clean. Blew everything out real well with compressed air and dried off:

Here's pretty much everything that needs to go to the machine shop... New OEM harmonic dampener and RPS carbon clutch will go too as part of the dynamic balancing. I still haven't bought any head parts yet. I would like for the machine shop to inspect and measure my old valves to see if they're still within spec. If so, I'll clean and reuse them. If not, I'll just put in one order for replacement valves, springs, retainers, guides, etc.

Greenberet asked me for some measurements while I have everything apart:

The above are on the head side. I need to measure on the intake manifold side to compare later.

This is a representative picture of the gasket on the head side... I need to compare how it overlays on the intake manifold side later. The casting is interesting. Once I compare it to the intake manifold, there might be slight room for improvement with port-matching. I'll probably ask the machinist what they think of sharpening the divider too:

I traced and copied the angle between the intake manifold and cylinder heads onto some paper. I'll get that measurement when I get to work tomorrow. I should probably bring home a compass since greenberet will have some more angles to measure I'm sure! We do 3D laser scanning at work, hmmm....

 

[cwood1388]

Hey dave got untill Wednesday off. call me man!

 

[Mac Attack]

Hey dave got untill Wednesday off. call me man!

Will do. Want to check out a machine shop with me? I'm going to give Satterfield a call today on Platt Springs Rd... maybe drop by there tomorrow afternoon.

I traced and copied the angle between the intake manifold and cylinder heads onto some paper. I'll get that measurement when I get to work tomorrow.

Tada:

 

[mr_goat]

Will do. Want to check out a machine shop with me? I'm going to give Satterfield a call today on Platt Springs Rd... maybe drop by there tomorrow afternoon.




Tada:

Shouldn't that be exactly 45 degrees for a 90 degree V6?

 

[Mac Attack]

Yes, that's what I thought too. And accounting for error in the translation to paper, it probably is 45 degrees in reality.

I must have misinterpreted what he was asking for.

Dave

 

[greenberet]

Thanks very much for the photos and the measurements. From the photos I’ll be able to check how many square centimeters the intake openings in the cylinder heads have and I’ll post what I come up with. Since the mating surface of the intake manifold and cylinder head is not at a 90° angle to the airflow but rather at a diagonal, the size of the opening is larger than the effective cross section. Based on this picture:



it looks like the mating surface is at a 51.8° angle to the airflow. Does that angle pass a reality check if you look at the real intake manifold?

And of course, another question: does it look like the gasket between the intake manifold and cylinder head has any insulation properties? Some shops offer custom-made phenolic gaskets to prevent heat transfer into the intake manifold but it would be nice if the OEM gasket already serves that purpose, if only kinda.