The importance of a college degree.

[DocL]

... Do you think a real estate investment plan could earn that much?

The two properties that I own, my home (five years) and my office (two years), if I were to sell them today will net me a 100% profit. Furthermore, the amount that I have spent on these properties to date is hundreds of thousands less than
I have spent on my education and loans to start my business.

So to answer your question, yes[/] a real estate investment plan can earn you big dollars.

 

[Carguy!]

This is short term thinking. Experience is great for a job that doesn't evolve very much.

However, if your requirement is for a job that may evolve and require a broad background, someone with a college education and even post-graduate work may be much better suited.

For example - a chemist who has a masters in chemistry will be more suitable for R&D jobs than someone who has mixed chemicals ad hoc in the field.

Regardless, in most corporate environments, because the person who is interviewing doesn't know you from Adam, the college degree(s) will give you a heads up as compared to someone who does not have a degree.

I must completely disagree, just because someone doesn't have a degree doesn't mean they don't have a good understanding of the field. With the internet you can learn as much on virtually any subject as you can in college if you are motivated.

The best programmers (my field of expertise) I have seen are ones that do it because they enjoy it, figure out problems on their own and strive to always be better. This can be attained either through college or through learning on your own.

Also something that hasn't been mentioned so far is that a lot of college graduates are looking for a job right away to start paying off their loans. I have seen plenty of people jump ship quite quickly after college to try and find a good fit for a job. I have also seen people get out of college start a job and find out that they hate it and go into a completely different field. So another benefit of hiring someone with experience is they know what the job will entail.

I could be completely wrong, it has happened before though.

 

[nsxtasy]

The reality today is that the hiring manager will have a choice of candidates with experience, candidates with college degrees, and candidates with both. The candidate who has only one without the other, in positions where experience and a degree are both considered to be relevant, is not likely to be hired.

Granted, there are some fields in which a degree is not required or customary. But there are many others where it is required even at an entry level, and others still where it is not required at an entry level, but is considered a prerequisite to moving into management. So, what that degree represents is the ability to consider many more options for your career than would be available without it. Going without the degree may be fine if you're convinced that you will never be interested in any of those options where it is de rigeur, but if you don't want to close those doors, then the degree will permit those additional opportunities to be open to you.

I don't know the costs of education these days, but I'm sure that if someone went to the private universities that I went to in the 80's-90's, that it would cost almost $350k these days.

The cost of attending Princeton University this coming academic year, including tuition, room, and board, is approximately $38K for the full year. Most other prestigious private universities are similar in cost.

 

[NSX_Dreamer]

The two properties that I own, my home (five years) and my office (two years), if I were to sell them today will net me a 100% profit. Furthermore, the amount that I have spent on these properties to date is hundreds of thousands less than
I have spent on my education and loans to start my business.

So to answer your question, yes[/] a real estate investment plan can earn you big dollars.

Doc, I think the real estate market in the last few years has been an anomoly. I think real estate will not continue to return the same rate as before, much like the stock market in dot com era. If real estate continues to shoot up like it has in the last few years, can you imagine how few people would be able to afford to buy a house in the future?

 

[DocL]

...The cost of attending Princeton University this coming academic year, including tuition, room, and board, is approximately $38K for the full year. Most other prestigious private universities are similar in cost.

That was the cost for my tuition alone at Tufts University School of Dental Medicine for one year. Add another $10-$15,000 a year for books, housing, food, entertainment and you have a recent graduate with $200k in loans. Add in your $38k per year and you have someone with $360,000 in debt with no job.

 

[nsxtasy]

That was the cost for my tuition alone at Tufts University School of Dental Medicine for one year. Add another $10-$15,000 a year for books, housing, food, entertainment and you have a recent graduate with $200k in loans. Add in your $38k per year and you have someone with $360,000 in debt with no job.

The original question was about whether or not a college degree - presumably meaning an undergraduate degree - matters. As I stated above, that depends on the field. If you want to be a construction worker or auto repair technician, the degree might never make a difference. But in many other fields, it will. And an undergraduate degree does not cost $360K, anywhere; that $38K times four would generally be considered the most that an undergraduate education would cost. Of course there are many fine private and particularly public universities where you can pay substantially less than that.

I'm not sure whether dental school is the best example here, anyway, simply because you can only become a dentist if you're willing to get an undergraduate degree and go to dental school afterwards. If you want to be a dentist, that's your only option. And if you don't want to be a dentist (or have some other career in dentistry, such as teaching or managing a dental practice), then you probably aren't going to bother going to dental school.

 

[coolnsx]

I'm in the construction industry and am surrounded by people that are there by last resource planning: That's all they can do. But the successful contractors have management experience or college to make it work and are successful because of it!

 

[O-Ace]

Looks like we've narrowed it down to "it depends on the field", but in general a college degree does indeed help.

Lets focus on the 2nd part of my original post: Both candidates have a degree; but first is from Northwestern, second is from DeVry, but the one from DeVry has 3-4 years more experience than the Northwestern Grad. If you were hiring for a Project Manager or Director of IT type of position, who would you hire?

This has been a pretty informative post so far

-Awais

 

[steveny]

Steve....these are people we're dealing with, not stock brokers

-Awais

When it come to business I do what is right for the business first and people come second.

 

[steveny]

Although I agree with your philosophy, Doc, unless the investment program had an average net annual income of $50,000 (~14%), it would not be a decent living income. Do you think a real estate investment plan could earn that much?

Absolutely. Real estate is a great investment and a lot easier than a "real job" most days, and it does not require a degree to make a VERY good living. I retired from real estate investing a few years ago but I am getting back into it again this year because I am not as busy as I would like to be. I started in the beginning of the year and already this year I have turned over my original investment 3 times and working on 4 times the money by the end of June when I will finish closing on the lake house I bought a month ago.

 

[nsxtasy]

Looks like we've narrowed it down to "it depends on the field", but in general a college degree does indeed help.

Lets focus on the 2nd part of my original post: Both candidates have a degree; but first is from Northwestern, second is from DeVry, but the one from DeVry has 3-4 years more experience than the Northwestern Grad. If you were hiring for a Project Manager or Director of IT type of position, who would you hire?

I think you are continuing to oversimplify your situation to boil it down to an either-or situation, which it rarely is.

Let's take this specific example. If I were hiring someone for a Project Manager or Director of IT type of position, I would be looking for his or her qualifications for the job. That includes such qualities as technical knowledge about his/her field and what his/her people do; the ability to lead; the ability to communicate with others; the ability to analyze and resolve problems; the integrity to do what is right; the ability to think outside the box; etc. The person would need to present and express himself/herself well, so that he/she could maintain the respect of his staff as well as his management. THOSE are the characteristics that I would be looking closely at, and they are far more important than the number of years of experience or the school that he/she went to.

That being said, I think that a person who went to a top college is often (but not always) more likely to have some of these qualities than someone who didn't. And by the same token, the person who has more experience - which is not always measured in terms of years, BTW - is also often (but not always) more likely to have others of these qualities than someone who didn't.

Again, you can't boil it down to an either-or choice - especially when the two ways you are categorizing people are, at best, only indirect indicators of the personal qualities that really do matter when evaluating candidates for a job.

 

[gheba_nsx]

With the actual situation, for a position of Project Manager (that is exactly my job and it has been fr the last 5 years), it is very very very difficult to be hired without having a university degree AND several years of work experience. This is the reality...


To answer the question if it is easier to get a job as a fresh graduate from a University or with several years of experience and no degree, I would say that the second is at the moment the one that will give you more possibilities. As long as the work experience collides perfectly with the open position.

An example: last year my brother, fresh from the degree from one of the top five technical University in the world (one of the first two in Europe) had to attend 25 different interviews with companies before getting a job. Most hiring manager said that he was lacking of at least 4-5 years of work experience.

 

[nsxtasy]

With the actual situation, for a position of Project Manager (that is exactly my job and it has been fr the last 5 years), it is very very very difficult to be hired without having a university degree AND several years of work experience.

That position has also been exactly my job for most of my career, and I agree with Gheba's assessment.

To answer the question if it is easier to get a job as a fresh graduate from a University or with several years of experience and no degree, I would say that the second is at the moment the one that will give you more possibilities. As long as the work experience collides perfectly with the open position.

An example: last year my brother, fresh from the degree from one of the top five technical University in the world (one of the first two in Europe) had to attend 25 different interviews with companies before getting a job. Most hiring manager said that he was lacking of at least 4-5 years of work experience.

That is true. However, everyone starts out with zero experience. And most of those hiring managers will take someone with a degree from a top university and zero experience, over someone with no degree and no experience.

Bottom line: College degrees matter. They matter more earlier in your career than later in your career, but in many fields, particularly professional and technical fields, they do matter. Experience matters too. I'd rather have both, than only have one.

 

[MarkB]

...I'd rather have both, than only have one. ...

So, Ken, you want to have your cake and eat it too?

 

[Arshad]

As others have said, it really depends on the field. In my experience with software development, your competence as a developer depends largely on your experience. Anybody can pick up a book and learn Java or C in a month, but experience will determine how you tackle an issue or how effectively you can debug problems.

Even in a situation where you have two people with equivalent experience, one with a degree, one without, it's often not a clear cut decision. You really have to focus on how well they'll integrate with the rest of your team, their creativity, their enthusiasm, their dedication to their work, etc. A persons soft skills are one of the hardest things to establish during an interview, but probably the most important thing if you want an employee who is going to do well in your organization. Simply focusing on an individuals education and technical experience is the reason so many people are hired who turn out to be slackers or problematic employees.


College degrees matter. They matter more earlier in your career than later in your career, but in many fields, particularly professional and technical fields, they do matter. Experience matters too. I'd rather have both, than only have one.


Although I largely agree with your assessment Ken, I think that the degree comes up again once you are further in your career. I know that for myself, without formal degrees, I have a glass ceiling that would prevent me from progressing beyond director level in my organization, irrespective of my performance or experience.

 

[DocL]

How many people with a college degree or advanced degree are currently unemployed comparred to those without a college education Ken?

 

[AaronR]

I am not in the same field that is being discussed, but I can tell you that without a college degree I would not be where I am today.
Aaron

 

[nsxtasy]

How many people with a college degree or advanced degree are currently unemployed comparred to those without a college education Ken?

Studies have shown a substantially higher average income for those with a college degree than without. For example, one recent study "shows that, for recent graduates of the University System of Georgia (USG), a college degree is worth an average of $14,000 a year more than a high-school graduate could expect to make. Over the course of a working career, the average graduate of a public college or university in Georgia can expect to earn nearly $1 million more than a high-school-educated neighbor."

 

[steveny]

However, everyone starts out with zero experience. And most of those hiring managers will take someone with a degree from a top university and zero experience, over someone with no degree and no experience.

If you have the degree and the experience you will be over qualified for the position. What an employer is really looking for is the best person at the cheapest price. If you don't have experience you can be hired for less, the same goes for not having the degree.

 

[nsxtasy]

If you have the degree and the experience you will be over qualified for the position. What an employer is really looking for is the best person at the cheapest price. If you don't have experience you can be hired for less, the same goes for not having the degree.

That may happen on occasion for an entry-level position, but it is rare for any position that requires experience and/or a degree.

 

[NeoNSX]

I've learned getting Degree's can be counterproductive.

After completing my degrees, i went job hunting and i was rejected repeatedly for being "over qualified" - even when will to accept a lower salary. I'm not joking.

And that's why i work for myself.

So a degree counts for NOTHING -- except you have the perservance and dedication to put yourself through 3-5years of hell.

So IMHO, work experience is worth something -- a degree does not substitute experience.


you guys can get back to your discussion now.

 

[gheba_nsx]

Neo, that was my brother's feeling after he went through the long (and full of negative experiences) process of finding a job.

But most of the problem you were facing were caused by the terrible economic moment we are (were?) living since mid-2000.

I still believe that a degree will give you an edge on the long run!

 

[gheba_nsx]

What an employer is really looking for is the best person at the cheapest price.

I am glad that until now I never had to work for a company with this commandment for the HR department...

Productiveness and results are very often related to the happyness/satisfaction of the employee.

 

[CokerRat]

Interesting. So a large number of people here think that education is not only a waste of time, but can set you behind! I have to admit, I'm stunned. Well here's a few hundred million bucks our governments can save -- let's just close the Universities! We can probably also start cutting out high school math and english, because hey, who really uses algebra and formal writing skills anyway? Waste of time!! Heck, we can probably scratch high school altogether. The lucky dropouts can get jobs, let's say $50K a year and will be $150K ahead after 3 years. My grandfather did just fine with his 7th grade education and dammit, that's good enough for me too! Where do I sign up for my $100,000-a-year dream job now? (all tongue-in-cheek of course but I hope you get my point)

In general, a totally useless and non-related degree STILL tells a prospective employer that you were able to buckle-down and complete 4 years of post-secondary education. A degree of any sort requires dedication and commitment to see it through to fruition - and sometimes a few brain cells, though I won't make any blanket statements about people with university degrees generally being smart as a group.

--> Should a plumber with an anthropology degree command more salary than one without? Probably not.

--> Would you rather hire a junior manager with an anthropology degree over a guy with the same experience but without the degree? Other things being comparable, I think you would.

--> For a technical position, would you take a technical school diploma in electronics over a university degree in underwater basket weaving? Of course.

Bottom line, you want a capable individual. Experience is a critical quality, but education is not inconsequential.

 

[NeoNSX]

Neo, that was my brother's feeling after he went through the long (and full of negative experiences) process of finding a job.

But most of the problem you were facing were caused by the terrible economic moment we are (were?) living since mid-2000.

I still believe that a degree will give you an edge on the long run!

You're absolutely right. I know it wasn't wasted time. If anything, i think/work more efficiently and research stuff better having spent so much time studying.

Degrees are also a great way of impressing women; except it always attracts the wrong types who think "wow, he's so smart" ... only to grow very disappointed when they find out you are still a typical guy. work that one out! Degrees don't make you understand women. lol.