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Track Days - what is the issue?
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In the test from the the link I mentioned, they found the newer brakes were definitely better. The author eventually mounted a newer system on his older car and stated there was a marked improvement. With the upgraded brakes I was getting to 210 on the straight as I could stay on it longer with confidence. After the initial 3 or 4 days with stock stuff the discs vibrated something fierce and they just looked sick from the overheating. Its the open lapping days that really tested em!
230, man I gotta go for a ride with you sometimes:biggrin:
Question about the cars on track at Mosport...........I go 280 on my bike and hardly break at all, but do gear down sometimes 3 to third as well as raise my body up a bit to catch some air which slows me down. I can appreciate the weight difference and the speeds, but are you braking that hard in 8?? The only place we brake a bit more is Moss's but dropping 2 just before you go up into 5A really slows you down on the bike. Mosport is not a 'big" braking track for the bikes. Just interesting reading the differences in the cars vs. the bikes.
Wouldn't it be fun to get us both out there at once???:biggrin: Cars turn faster in the corners, but the bikes have the acceleration and power to weight advantage..........but would be fun!!!
Wouldn't it be fun to get us both out there at once???:biggrin: Cars turn faster in the corners, but the bikes have the acceleration and power to weight advantage..........but would be fun!!!
Pro's dont break much for 8 and they scrub speed during the turn, but I dont get paid enough for running my fastest laps, actually it costs me cash, so I hit the brakes just a bit after the hump and enter 8 at a piddly 160 or so.
Mosport is not a braking track in cars either. Momentum.
Mosport is not a braking track in cars either. Momentum.
Yeah, the guy who hands out cash and racing bonuses is never around when Dave is at the track - he scares him away!
Dave doesn't need to brake much at all, but that big anchor he ties to his wing does make a mess of the track and they've asked him to stop, so he'll be on the brakes more next time.
I downshift from 5th to 4th, just over the hump into 8, that's my "braking", then make the first apex (turtles) and I float (neutral throttle, just balance) to the concrete then lots of throttle to keep the back end in, break off early to give me a straight line between 8-9 (so I apex 9 four feet past the beginning of the turtles, and then long increasing apex on the gas) then stay on gas until I break a bit for 10 - hop hop hop through 10 (they should repave it) into front straight.
I'd like to get an experienced NSX track driver in the car with me. I've got some decent seat time but need to work on carrying speed through the corners. My line is good, but I just need to get my speed up a bit. I'm working on that this coming Monday at Kensai.
no gearing down before 9? If i drop 2 before 8, I drop 2 again before 9. Otherwise if I drop 3 before 8, drop 1 before 9 to put me in second with lots of power. Remember the newer bikes - at least my Yamaha R6 redlines at over 16,000 and pulls hp until 15.........soo much different when trying to max the speed, gears, braking, etc. - We should switch bike/car.......any takers? Could win some money here:biggrin:
Call Daria - he's a great instructor and logged LOTs of track time on his NSX
Oops - yes, of course downshift to 3 from 8-9
The only money I win on the track is when Dave pays me not to pass him and say how great he is - did I say that out loud?
Now I understand why you keep asking me to write that essay on how masculine and cool you are!
But I'm not gonna do it - I cannot tell a lie!:wink:
You can avoid the vibration by bedding your pads and rotors properly. Read:
The "Warped" Brake Disc and Other Myths of the Braking System
Pad and Rotor Bed-In Theory, Definitions and Procedures
I agree - the other issue is a "newbie" track guy issue - new drivers tend not to trust their brakes and ride them too long in the braking zone and even subconsciously into corners. (even advanced new to specific tracks do it as I learned watching some Genessee County BMW club advanced drivers go around Mosport as I caught up and passed them.
Expert drivers squeeze their brakes on and squeeze (gentle, straight line release) off. They do it later than newbies and more linearly. This causes less rotor heat, reduced brake fade and of course, less likelihood of warping the rotors.
I ran tons of small track hard braking days on my NSX before my racecar days and no issues (I still haven't changed rotors or pads 10,000 miles and a set of tires later!!!)
Bed your brakes, understand your mistakes that cause the problem - carry less speed until you are confident you can slow the car down SMOOTHLY and you're shit will last and you'll become a better driver too. Its easy to add speed, VERY HARD to learn smooth but without smooth you'll never get really fast.
Stu......same as on my bikes. I ran all 06 and up until Mosport on my OEM Yamaha pads and never had an issue. Other then pushing my fluid through the lines and having more travel for the lever - worked great. I've done that each year. The problem is most don't know how to break in new pads and it's the heat/cool process that does it and you really can't do it on a track - I rode around Mosport pits and broke them in. I also cheat and use engine braking (sort of) as most time I am bang on with matching rpm in the selected gear so the engine just purrs............never warped rotors but can see how it can be done in the cars
Bought the car with the stock stuff on it so I can only hope the bedding was done properly. It was a garage queen and looked pretty mint. It caused me no problems until I got to an open tracking day where I ran plenty of continuous laps and started to get more aggressive coming into the turns. Always did cool down laps to try to eliminate depositing at stand still. According to the Stoptech article ,which I previously have read, it can be caused by overheating of the pads and the associated depositing of material on the rotors. So it seems to me that even if you bed things properly but then reach its limits in regards to heat you are still going to get depositing and the associated vibration. When installing the new goodies I carefully followed the bedding in procedures and after a good solid day at Mosport, no problems whatsoever. Of course I greatly increased the cooling capabilities also which I feel was the most important issue.
I don't have personal experience with racing but isn't it true that you can be faster by out braking the competition? Does this lead to faster lap times or just the ability to get in front of the competitors? I assumed it would be faster if you could come in quicker and brake as late as possible to get to the speed down to the max you car could handle for the given corner. I guess there are balance issues involved also but thats what makes it so difficult and fun.
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Therefore likely NOT bedded - mechanics don't bed for you and most people (especially garage queen guys) don't know about bedding
lack of bedding won't necessarily show on the street since you don't heat anything up - you also don't notice the relative "badness" of your brakes' stopping ability
Cooling down is really for rotors - you won't get depositing if you stop in neutral and DONT use your handbrake (they should take them out of cars!)
Yes, and if you're going to the track regularly its good to move up to slightly higher temp pads "racing pads" are maybe much with Performance Friction Pads (prefered by Grand Am teams and me:smile: they make a bunch of different compounds, I use the hardest "bite'y'est" in the front and nest softest in rear to provide brake bias - they are less effective on the street - but I drive my car to and from the track and they're OK (note - I have the biggest brakes and rotors Porsche makes on my car - everything is relative)
I'd agree cooling is the most important (relative cooling to what the pad is designed for) - what did you do to improve cooling? I'd expect your new brakes to last well and work well since you started correctly.
can be a bit of both, braking for shorter distances means you carry speed for longer - therefore faster overall speed. Out breaking in the corner can allow you to dive inside someone before the apex, which may not be "faster" since you're car will not be as balanced for throttle/acceleration to the exit - but it sure gets you in front of the other guy and makes it hard for him to pass you back!
Its true (like in example above) BUT newbies who are going to try this WAIT!!!!!
1) Not at your full speed practice late braking at 7/10ths - the idea still works but it is INSIDE your reaction time and likely inside your car's performance envelope. (you can dial up the speed as you learn)
2) Do it on a corner with no consequences of run off - no walls, nothing to hurt your car
3) If you don't get enough stopping steer straight and keep stopping - DON'T TRY TO MAKE THE CORNER!!!
4) Do this on a slow track like the DDT @ Mosport, not in turn 5 on the GP track @ Mosport
5) You may find yourself "double breaking" or trail braking cuz of the sphincter
factor - you're not saving brake heat now baby!:tongue:
I see this whole back and forth brake banter as a moot point. The NSX is a high performance car that is better than anyone of us. It is not a car that anyone of us is better than.
Im asking why people are reluctant to come to the track. After watching instructors beat the hell out of high performance cars they're lapping with, while in their stock civics or subaru rs' or whatever, I find it hard to believe that after a few track sessions, or even 100 track sessions, that "the stock NSX isnt good enough". That just cannot be the case. If it is, take your car to Acura, it needs servicing; not expensive parts.
Im asking why people are reluctant to come to the track. After watching instructors beat the hell out of high performance cars they're lapping with, while in their stock civics or subaru rs' or whatever, I find it hard to believe that after a few track sessions, or even 100 track sessions, that "the stock NSX isnt good enough". That just cannot be the case. If it is, take your car to Acura, it needs servicing; not expensive parts.
I agree!
The only example of excessive wear I've seen is my friend Ron who has a "stock" Mazda Speed 6 and great driving skill, he wears tires because the car is a heavy sedan and simply not up to its own performance envelope - not so with the NSX
Stu's comments remind me of one of my first lapping days at Shannonville. I showed up with a shiny NSX and beat the hell out of it. Didn't know what to do except go fast. Then on a certain corner my brake pedal went to the floor and I didn't really slow down.
I let the car cool for an hour, went back out and with some instruction drove a better line, I felt like I was going slower, but I actually went much faster around the track.
No brake system will overcome a driver's error is what I found out.
Also, at NSXPO 2004 we had a tech seminar on brakes from Cobalt Brake systems and another brake company. Their lead engineer basically told us that a stock set up will perform as well as aftermarket stuff in 90% of applications. If you track regularly he suggested upgrading the pads and that's about it. He had all the data to prove it to. Very very interesting.
I let the car cool for an hour, went back out and with some instruction drove a better line, I felt like I was going slower, but I actually went much faster around the track.
No brake system will overcome a driver's error is what I found out.
Also, at NSXPO 2004 we had a tech seminar on brakes from Cobalt Brake systems and another brake company. Their lead engineer basically told us that a stock set up will perform as well as aftermarket stuff in 90% of applications. If you track regularly he suggested upgrading the pads and that's about it. He had all the data to prove it to. Very very interesting.
Don't ask me. I've put over 12,000 actual track miles on my NSX, which is almost bone stock.
Since less than 10% of us go to the track the math says we all need brake upgrades:wink:
I would think that the pads are still touching the rotors even when at stop. If I jack up any car and try to spin the wheels there is always friction and therefore I assume light contact so I always cool down as best as possible before coming to a stop.
The extra air cooling is best achieved by removing the splash guards which protect the rotors. They have 2 pathetically small holes in them for the air to go through which is effectively ends up being nothing. The lower balljoint is close to the rotor so a small heat shield should help a bit to keep it from getting hot. I made one up that still lets air through but does protect the joint somewhat. Larger air deflectors which protrude below the car a bit to scoop more air and deflect at the middle of the rotors. Since I am watching too much American Chopper, I fabricated a nice smooth set out of aluminum to keep myself out of trouble. Approx 2.5 times the size of stock ones.
I did a couple days at Mosport with BMW ( Rui as instructor) and brakes were still OK but not sure if this would bed them properly., After 2 days of open lapping where you can go for longer sessions, I started to get the vibration.
Thats it, I'm buying a newer one:biggrin:
No expensive parts on your car eh:wink:
Please excuse me, I just had a bad golf game
Not necessarily. I left my splash guards on, cut a hole in them, welded a flange around the hole, and used it to attach a cooling duct running from the front air dam. :tongue:
Nope, none. Not a one. :wink: