Track prep and track tires

[EricC]

Hello all, I hope to get some track time for my 99 Zanardi later in the fall. I'm looking for advice on track tire and wheel combos. After searching the forums, i think I want to go with Yokohama A032. I have a good contract who runs Trackside Services, a major Yokohama racing tire distrubitor, he can get me a nice discount on rubber. As is evident, there is a limited selecton of tires in the OEM size, so I want to purchase a set of wheels to fit the track tires. What would be the best tire and wheel sizes, and wheel brands? It is not important to me to increase the wheel diameter, I want the priority on light weight, and a good neutral handling car. I think I will be running stock brakes, so caliper clearance shouldn't be an issue. Also what about the AVS Sport, how do those compare to A032?

I have a couple Willans 6 point harness that we milaged off of our race car that I wound to mount in the NSX. Are there any technical resources on mounting belts, especially regarding fabricating or purchasing the shoulder belt mounting bracket?

What other issues do I need to address for a track prep. Probably track use brake pads, high performance brake fluid, air ducting to cool brake disks? Thanks for the help

-Eric C.
-99 NSX Zanardi

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by EricC:
Also what about the AVS Sport, how do those compare to A032?

The AVS Sport is a street tire. Its handling and dry traction are not as good as the stock NSX tires (Yokohama A022H or Bridgestone RE010). The A032R is a track tire.

Originally posted by EricC:
What other issues do I need to address for a track prep. Probably track use brake pads, high performance brake fluid, air ducting to cool brake disks?

If you have never driven on the track before, don't worry about any upgrades, and don't use track tires, either. You won't be using more than 10-20 percent of your car's capabilities. (If you think you're a "fast driver" because of driving on the street, I can assure you that your first track event will change your mind about that.)

For your first 20 or so track events, I would suggest using your car bone stock, with fresh brake fluid (Honda fluid is just fine) and the stock tires and brake pads. After you've done that many track events, you might start encountering limitations of the stock car that will point you in a direction of upgrading the brakes or tires etc.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 16 June 2002).]

 

[Lud]

I'm not clear on your level of track experience. If you own(ed) a race car and have lots of track experience, sure the A032R is a good compromise between a street tire and a dedicated racing slick. Dry grip is noticeably up from OEM tires. They are very loud over 50-60PM though.

AVS Sports are street tires. They are very good street tires, and having driven a set fairly extensively I think I would disagree with nsxtasy that they are inferior to OEM tires for dry grip. They are comparable to Michelin MXX3, Pirelli P-Zero, etc. (I have used both of those too).

As far as brakes, go ahead and bleed out the OEM fluid and put some ATE or Motul or something in there regardless of your experience level. You should bleed your brakes before the track if it hadn't been done in a while anyway, so you may as well put some better fluid in while you're doing it considering the marginal cost difference.

Volk TE37s are good strong light wheels available in a wide variety of sizes. See http://www.daliracing.com

I don't know about race-compound brake pads. I was happy with the RM pads on my '91 NSX. I understand Carbotech pads are popular as well. I have a big brake kit so it's not really an issue anymore!

If you want to mount a 6-point harness you should probably buy a harness bar (Dali Racing and Comptech sell them). I doubt you are going to fab anything that does the job and doesn't tear up your interior for much less money. Ideally you need to replace the OEM seat with an aftermarket seat that has cutouts for harness belts, but you can make due with the factory seats if you cut through the seat bottom to mount the 5th and 6th points. I think Dali and/or ScienceofSpeed have instructions for this. If you don't want to get a harness bar, you will need to use some big backing plates behind the rear firewall which is a real butcher job on the car IMO.

If I have misunderstood you and you do NOT have a lot of on-track experience, ignore everything I said and just take your stock car to the track and have fun!

[This message has been edited by Lud (edited 16 June 2002).]

 

[EricC]

My track experience is limited. I went through the Russell racing schools (Laguna Seca at that time) and I raced in their Formula Mazda series, but this was in 95. I know all the basics of car controll, but I am very rusty not having been on the track for so long. However the race track is no stranger to me as I work for a professional racing team, but of course I don't get to drive on the track. I was talking to our driver coach, Derek Higgins, and he was interesting in trying my car out on the track. He raced many years in PPG Indy Lights and Mexian F3, so I think he's fully qualified to pull everything out of a set of R compound tires. He scares the shit out of me when he drivers the rental car

All you guys who run A034 on the track, what tire and wheel sizes do you use? It seems to me 17" front and back is the way to go, as the tire sizes are limited.

Thanks for your help

BTW, if you're interested in the team I work for, check out www.hyltonmotorsports.com
We run Ryan Hunter-Reay and Roger Yasukawa in the CART Toyota Atlantic series. It's great fun, especially when we win.


See all you at the track hopefully.

-Eric

 

[docjohn]

The yokos are a good compomise track/street tire.They are loud on the street due to an anoying hum and slight vibration.They are durable and have the added benefit of working all right in the rain,since we can't luck out on every track day weather-wise.The stock 16 front wheels are a tough fit for r tires.I use a 17/17 combo with ssr comp wheels.the oz supperlegeras are light as well.The volks are also very light,but the most important point is offset you need as close to stock as possible esp. with widder front tires 225-235 width,To have good fender clearence and allow for trouble free lowering in the future.good luck.

 

[Hrant]

Eric,

Given your second clarifying post, I too recommend that for now you take your stock Zanardi to the track without worrying much about the other details, except for the brake fluid. It's better to know the limits of your car in stock/oem condition before you start tinkering with it ........ will give you more confidence IMO ....... unless you are doing this to also accommodate your friend ........

ATE, Motul should give you an extra margin of helping with their higher boiling points if you are hard on the brakes (which often starts to show if you are carrying higher speeds, very hot day on the track, the nature of the track, and if you wait to the last minute to brake and you then brake hard).

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Eric,

it might take you a few days to get comfortable to the car and get you up to speed. I would suggest to go with stock setup for the first time (exception of brake fluids) and not too worry about anything.

However, if you are gonna let a pro driver flog around in your car, please upgrade the pads as well.

JMHO

 

[nsxtasy]

I would again suggest that you leave your car stock for now. If your pro drivers are driving you around the track, just let them know that it's your street car and they should be able to show you what the car will do without beating on it so hard that the stock components are inadequate.

If and when you do decide to upgrade to R compound tires, ...

Originally posted by EricC:
All you guys who run A034 on the track, what tire and wheel sizes do you use?

For my A032R track tires, I use the stock sizes for my '91, which won't help you because my 15" front wheels won't clear your '99 calipers.

Another advantage of the '91 stock sizes is that I can fit four track tires inside the car and drive to the track that way. I'm not sure which, if any, larger sizes of track tires permit that.

Originally posted by docjohn:
The yokos are a good compomise track/street tire.

Yes, they are.

Just like with street tires, track tires have trade-offs among various characteristics - treadlife, dry traction, wet traction, cost, etc.

If you're driving in competition, where an extra tenth of a second in lap time is a big consideration, then get the Hoosier R3S03. They stick great - but they don't last very long, and don't try them in the rain.

If you're looking for the traction of an R compound tire, but you want it to last longer than one or two events, and/or you want to be able to drive it back to the hotel at the end of the day (even if it's raining), then get the Yokohama A032R. You can even drive it to the track, if you don't mind the hum. Think of it as a user-friendly track tire.

Between these two ends of the track tire spectrum lie two Kumho tires: the Kumho V700 Victoracer towards the Hoosier end, and the new Kumho V700 Ecsta towards the Yokohama end.

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Eric,

I would still suggest you to at least get the fluid replaced. It is really hard to detect heat soak or fluid boiling. You might be a natural and all the speed comes back to you in a session. You don't want to have to restrain yourself for the rest of the day, would you? It is cheap and you have nothing to lose.

And Ken,
you got the kumho the other way around.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Andrie Hartanto:
I would still suggest you to at least get the fluid replaced.

I agree. Fresh fluid is a good idea.

Originally posted by Andrie Hartanto:
And Ken,
you got the kumho the other way around.

I don't think so. My understanding is that the NEW tire that Kumho recently introduced - the Kumho V700 Ecsta - offers longer treadlife and is better in the rain than their older, V700 Victoracer. Hence my note that it is more towards the Yokohama end of the spectrum.

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
I don't think so. My understanding is that the NEW tire that Kumho recently introduced - the Kumho V700 Ecsta - offers longer treadlife and is better in the rain than their older, V700 Victoracer. Hence my note that it is more towards the Yokohama end of the spectrum.

The new Kumho Ecsta V700 was made with one goal in mind. To compete with Hoosier. Providing softer and grippier compounds. Like I mentioned before in other thread, they have failed. Still great tires.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Andrie Hartanto:
The new Kumho Ecsta V700 was made with one goal in mind. To compete with Hoosier. Providing softer and grippier compounds.

Not according to Kumho's website, which says:

"The New DOT approved Ecsta V700 race tire is lighter than the Victoracer. Because of the directional tread design and symmetric internal construction racers can remount the the Ecsta V700 "inside-out" to extend the life of the tires, while providing racers with excellent performance and increased value."

Note the emphasis on value, not on performance. Tire Rack's website says virtually the same thing:

"The ECSTA V700 is the newest competition tire member of the Kumho ECSTA high performance tire family. It’s a DOT legal competition radial that was developed in Europe and is now available in the United States for the drivers who participate in autocross and track events. Like its companion (the Kumho V700 Victoracer) the ECSTA V700 is attractively priced and designed to be a great 'racing value' by delivering the best traction and treadlife per dollar."

and then goes on to discuss its wet-weather capabilities:

"The ECSTA V700 molds Kumho’s specially formulated high grip Silica competition tread compound into a directional design that features wide tread ribs in the shoulders and intermediate tread blocks to maximize dry cornering grip while enhancing handling and tread life. The ECSTA V700’s directional tread design also helps provide wet traction when run at full tread depth, however, if there is a lot of standing water on the track, caution is advised and/or the use of deeper treaded tires is recommended."

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Here is the story,
they made the Ecsta V700 initially to compete with Hoosier. They failed. Lots of racers tried them think they actually feel the same and don't give any improvement in lap time compare to the older Victoracer.

After about a year, Kumho released a memo posted on their site until recently, aknowledging the problem. It was circulated in a few competition board as well. They claimed that they uses the same compounds, but the new tread design and lighweight manufactureing attributed to faster lap time, and greater traction in testing. They are currently working for a new compound to address the problem and to compete better with Hoosier.

I guess this prompted them to change the wording on their site. Their site used to say how the new one is more superior than the old one. At least that's how I remebered it, and what prompted me to buy those tires for my race car.

I am surprised that someone like you who like to go to the track a lot don't know about this news. Does kumho people never show up on one of those event you attended?

Anyway, shoot them an email and ask them about the compound and which one is better according to them.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Andrie Hartanto:
I am surprised that someone like you who like to go to the track a lot don't know about this news. Does kumho people never show up on one of those event you attended?

In addition to the information on the websites, I hear stuff from my fellow instructors at the track (some of whom work at the Tire Rack, just like our own Aaron and Meeyatch). When I buy tires, I also usually discuss options with the folks at Tire Rack. I don't follow the competition boards much, just occasionally. And I don't always know all the development history, just how folks feel about the tires themselves and how they compare among the usual criteria.

Similarly, I know that there are some tires (e.g. Yokohama A048R) that are available in foreign markets but not in the States. I don't follow all those developments, either. I'm most concerned with what tires are available to me, and the advantages and disadvantages of each.

A friend of mine (experienced BMW CCA instructor) was using the Ecsta V700 on his E30 M3 at several events I went to recently. He actually drove to the track on the Ecsta V700 and brought another set of track tires with him (I forget which kind). He considers the Ecsta V700 to be his "rain tires", the tires he puts on the car to drive on the track in the rain, and his other track tires to be his "dry tires". He said that they're similar to the Victoracer V700 in the dry, possibly not quite as good, but last longer.

Sounds from your description like things didn't work out as planned for our friends at Kumho so they're trying to put some marketing spin on them. Interesting that they've got them priced less than the V700 Victoracer (at least, this is true at Tire Rack for the 205/50-15).

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
In addition to the information on the websites, I hear stuff from my fellow instructors at the track (some of whom work at the Tire Rack, just like our own Aaron and Meeyatch). When I buy tires, I also usually discuss options with the folks at Tire Rack. I don't follow the competition boards much, just occasionally. And I don't always know all the development history, just how folks feel about the tires themselves and how they compare among the usual criteria.

Hard to believe. I thought you always surfing the net looking for all kind of info

Similarly, I know that there are some tires (e.g. Yokohama A048R) that are available in foreign markets but not in the States. I don't follow all those developments, either. I'm most concerned with what tires are available to me, and the advantages and disadvantages of each.

Actually, some of the A048 has made it to our country. But Yokohama still are not sure if they will make it DOT.

My friend was involved in the testing of those tires here in US. He said they are available in 3 compounds, and the medium compound was as fast as hoosier.

A friend of mine (experienced BMW CCA instructor) was using the Ecsta V700 on his E30 M3 at several events I went to recently. He actually drove to the track on the Ecsta V700 and brought another set of track tires with him (I forget which kind). He considers the Ecsta V700 to be his "rain tires", the tires he puts on the car to drive on the track in the rain, and his other track tires to be his "dry tires". He said that they're similar to the Victoracer V700 in the dry, possibly not quite as good, but last longer.

Very surprising. I've used them both in my E30 M3. even use them both at the same time in my NSX. I can attest that the new kumho don't last as long as the victoracer. I corded the Ecsta V700 in 3 race weekend on the M3. With the victoracer, it lasted me 4 weekends, and not even corded, but very close.

On the NSX, my front tires (uses the ecsta V700) corded in just 2 days! And the rear was close to corded. When was the last time you hear NSX uses the front tires harder than the rear?

Sounds from your description like things didn't work out as planned for our friends at Kumho so they're trying to put some marketing spin on them. Interesting that they've got them priced less than the V700 Victoracer (at least, this is true at Tire Rack for the 205/50-15).

That is what I think too. They trying to do a bit of cover up. As far as the price, they said the new technology is cheaper.



[This message has been edited by Andrie Hartanto (edited 20 June 2002).]