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[daveh]

a quick question.for those using dali track bars if your full stiff up front what do you set the rear?I did laguna again last week and set my rear a little stiffer 2nd from full loose .I have H&R's and Bilstiens.17/18 with so3's .the rears are about 20-30%.anyway I was going in a little deep trying to turn in later and spun in 4.I really didn't track out and when I went back and saw my skid marks they were way on the inside instead of spinning off @ track out i stayed inside and after 2 360's smacked my L/R 1/4 into the tire wall .Very loose all day though??? my tcs even came on twice exiting 11 which has never happned before .I know it was a little(mostly) pilot error ,some tire and maybe too tight in the back.do me a favour and let me know what you think.Thanks.I was also taking 3,4,5,6,7,8,8a,9 and 10 in 3rd which I used to do mostly in 2nd.and ain't sure if i was carrying too much into 4.

 

[sjs]

Sorry to hear of your mishap, but at least it doesn't sound too bad. Perhaps begin with a little more info. What tire width & aspect? What tire pressures? When you say the rear was "2nd from full loose" do you mean 2nd softest (long arms) vs hardest (short arms) on the front? You say it was loose all day, describe what that means to you. Do you normally use trail braking?

 

[ncdogdoc]

Most of the "racer" folks (including PD Cunningham) run a stock rear bar or no rear bar with the largest front bar you can fit.

 

[docjohn]

Thats true Gary but PD also was running 1200 lb front and 6-800 lb rear springs and triple adj shocks.

 

[sjs]

Thats true Gary but PD also was running 1200 lb front and 6-800 lb rear springs and triple adj shocks.

For sure. An otherwise stock NSX would understeer something awful without a rear bar, even with a stock front one much less something stiffer. It's all about balance, both the car and the driving.

 

[daveh]

Thanks Doc and SJS.I'm running 265/35 and 215/40/my tires were 32-38 hot,which is usually fine for me .by loose I mean i was low speed oversteer from the get go.Way different than my last 3-4 day's at laguna .The car felt completely diferent .I did take a ride in my instructors 911 with no rear bar and the feeling was quite different of course.incredibly sensitive to throtle.basically steering the car around 2 with the throtle.whether it's the enging layout or not i cant seem to induce that in my car.Ken or Hrant any input on my mishap????Thanks.

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

what kind of suspension you running?

What expirience do you have?

 

[sjs]

what kind of suspension you running?

Buried in the first post "I have H&R's and Bilstiens." I had lost it before my first response as well.

As I've often said, having had this combination (briefly) I feel qualified to state, rather emphatically, that the result is an over-sprung car with a tendency to "pogo" over bumps. Not sever, but too much for serious track driving.

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Thanks SJS, can't believe I missed it. I read it twice!

Laguna is very smooth and fast track. There will be a good chance you spin the car on T-4 because you just went to deep, and end up trail braking the turns trying to make the turn. This cause the rear to get light and you just didn't know or didn't compensate quick enough.

But your comment on the car feeling loose all day add confusion to me. If you knew the car felt loose, you should have taken precaution and adjust your driving accordingly.

Was it wet?

 

[ncdogdoc]

For sure. An otherwise stock NSX would understeer something awful without a rear bar, even with a stock front one much less something stiffer. It's all about balance, both the car and the driving.

I do not disagree about balance, but he said his car was loose, which is an unavoidable consequence of the setup he describes above. Even with stock shocks, on a racetrack, a bigger front bar will counteract what he is describing, giving him more confidence. There are those of us who are running this combo with less HD suspensions. Anyway, running bigger springs up front as Doc John mentioned will just further accentuate the bigger bar so I am not sure why that makes any difference.

Try it, you might like it

 

[daveh]

Thank's Andrie and you other guy's .You're absolutely right I was pushing too hard.I didn't feel at all comfortable,and i felt i was talking/listening too much to the instructor and not focusing on driving .It's my 7th time at laguna and the last couple of times I was doing 1'58-1'59.I felt real comfortable all the other times but I just didn't feel focused at all .My fault for pushing.Andrie you may remember me .I sold you the tailights after your spin.Maybe someday if your'e @ a green flag or NCRC day I can grab a ride .Or if your doin' a tracknuts at laguna or sears i'll go by .Awsome vid of the challenge at sears.well done .what do you guys run for a street setup.I'm a daily driver so i'm not sure if I want a comptech or tien setup.Will I hate it for a daily or is it liveable.I only do about 5-6 events a year .Thanks again,Dave

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Hey Dave,

yes, I remember you.

IMHO, your car setup is ok. It is not bad at all. Looking at your times, you definitely not utilizing the car at full potential yet. Just for comparison, I was turning 1:54 in the rain using H&R springs with Koni setup.

 

[docjohn]

Sorry if I confused anyone my point is that I would expect driver skill to be more of a factor with your setup than changes in your sway bar holes.Changing the holes offers negligable changes in stiffness, all other things considered.I agree that if your car is truley loose then stiffening your front springs or bar would help reduce this.But as Andrie has suggested an instructor level driver would probably be able to work with it to the point that you would think it was a different car.Next time out have a more experienced nsxer take your car out and give you some feedback.

 

[sjs]

I do not disagree about balance, but he said his car was loose, which is an unavoidable consequence of the setup he describes above...

Having owned the H&R + Bilstein setup as well as H&R + Koni, both with Dali street/track bars set to "default" positions, I feel certain that the car is not unduly "loose" or prone to oversteer in those configurations. In fact, mild under steer is still present at all but the highest speeds. I don’t recall the difference in front/rear bar stiffness on the “track” versions but I think they are stiffer than mine but similarly balanced. If so then I would be checking each component carefully for problems, just in case.

Although the adjustment is limited, setting one end full hard and the other full soft is quite considerably different that the reverse. I'll also repeat that your combination is not well matched in terms of dampers to springs, but that alone is not an understeer/oversteer balance issue.

 

[daveh]

Yes Andrie.The difference is you know what your doing!!!!I'm just annoyed that I spun at an easy corner.Never had a problem with it before.thanks doc too I really need to do a few laps in an nsx with an instructor to see/feel the difference.The throtle steer in the 911 was dramatic.almost made my setup feel numb.not that I want it that twitchy but it was quite something,,Andrie can probably relate but that control is not in my repetoire yet,if ever.

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Laguna is not an easy circuit. In fact it is one of the hardest to master. Mostly because most of the turns are pretty fast turns, so it takes balls.

Turn 4 in particular is a very fast turn. On certain cars, you can take this turn with just light tap on the brake and get back to full throttle.

 

[the nsxnut]

I'm in with DogDoc. Because of the inherent rapid-rotation characteristics of the NSX, it is desirable to have a softer rear-end for maximum grip. A stiffer rear bar will decrease grip, which leads to rotation. As mentioned, balance is very important. Isn't it amusing to see the hot imports on the street that have uprated their springs oscillate over the bumps? The softer/non-existent rear bar also lets you get power down sooner leaving corners. I also have had that conversation with PD, and he said 'just take it off', even for the street. I haven't used a rear bar for some time now. In fact, I'll sell you a near-new rear Dali track bar, 23mm. The only other race NSXs I know of, DAL Motorsports, do not use rear bars, either.

Many racers suggest dialing out understeer by working on the front end, i.e., shock/spring settings, bar stiffness, tire pressures, rather than trying to correct by changing rear settings.

Also, daveh, IMO, the Teins are just fine for daily; normal driving conditions are quite comfortable. The noticeable diff is on pavement breaks, speed bumps, driveway transitions, etc... but standard cruising on average pavement is fine.