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Which Supercharger?

That's what I'm trying to figure out on the Twin Screw type.

I was originally under the impression that it was more power loss compared to the Roots type since it compresses the air instead of just pumping it.

Another thing is the Roots type feels more like a punch in it's sudden acceleration where the Twin Screw feels more like a push.

The quote from the Magnuson website is misleading, because it does not state load. Under low load freeway type driving, both compressors probably require the same amount of power to drive the unit (the bypass valve used in the twin screw makes it an open circuit). Under load, the compressive action of the twin screw may require more power to drive the unit, however, it places so much more air mass into the engine that the point is moot. The ONLY downside to screw vs Roots in the cost to manufacture. Twin screws require more exacting machining tolerance to achieve the compressive design. This is why you see Roots compressors in more OEM applications and screw compressors in more high performance oriented applications.

Cheers,
-- Chris
 
Just watch "You Tube" for any turbo charged NSX on the track with an in car video cam. The drivers are usually tip-toeing through the corners and go into instant countersteer as soon as the engine comes on the pipe (unless they're tracking out hard or almost pointed straight). You got to have a talented right foot to accelerate smoothly from the apex with any kind of turbo that'll produce good HP numbers. A positive displacement SC is much eaiser to drive hard out of a corner. It's another story about half the way down the straight, however.

Just my opinion.
 
Just watch "You Tube" for any turbo charged NSX on the track with an in car video cam. The drivers are usually tip-toeing through the corners and go into instant countersteer as soon as the engine comes on the pipe (unless they're tracking out hard or almost pointed straight). You got to have a talented right foot to accelerate smoothly from the apex with any kind of turbo that'll produce good HP numbers. A positive displacement SC is much eaiser to drive hard out of a corner. It's another story about half the way down the straight, however.

Just my opinion.
Yes, some of the videos out there are quite bad, especially cars with GT42s and GT45s. But I would hardly say that about well-engineered cars like Kip/Driving Ambition's or FXMD's who'se turbo setups are designed for road racing and whose cars are set up properly and driven well.

Billy
 
Yes, some of the videos out there are quite bad, especially cars with GT42s and GT45s. But I would hardly say that about well-engineered cars like Kip/Driving Ambition's or FXMD's who'se turbo setups are designed for road racing and whose cars are set up properly and driven well.

Billy

Billy are there any enduro type races where efficiency becomes a factor like at Indy500 for example? I would imagine that one thing that is overlooked that is in turbo's favor is that it is a more efficient motor than a SC'ed one. I would guess there is nothing in road racing like there in the Indy500 or F1 where one less pit stop or a bit less fuel use (less weight too) would make a difference in winning or losing.... Is there?

I would imagine on a daily driven car with your foot kept out of the gas, the turbo car will return a few more MPG. I mean this is why all of a sudden so many manufacturers are making turbos. 10 years ago you couldn't find a single turbocharged car. Now look... they are everywhere. The one thing I don't miss with my turbos is that dam turbo timer.... car running for 3 minutes after every shut off for bearing cooling. That sucked.
 
Billy are there any enduro type races where efficiency becomes a factor like at Indy500 for example? I would imagine that one thing that is overlooked that is in turbo's favor is that it is a more efficient motor than a SC'ed one. I would guess there is nothing in road racing like there in the Indy500 or F1 where one less pit stop or a bit less fuel use (less weight too) would make a difference in winning or losing.... Is there?

I would imagine on a daily driven car with your foot kept out of the gas, the turbo car will return a few more MPG. I mean this is why all of a sudden so many manufacturers are making turbos. 10 years ago you couldn't find a single turbocharged car. Now look... they are everywhere. The one thing I don't miss with my turbos is that dam turbo timer.... car running for 3 minutes after every shut off for bearing cooling. That sucked.
That's a long conversation, but yes, Indy Cars, Champ Cars, F1, Trans Am, etc... all had turbos and it was very popular (but hard to police and manage) in the 80's.

When you make more power, you consume more fuel. But yes turbos take wasted exhaust gasses to make power while supercharger have parasitic losses and that is a good point/reason many of said series used turbos instead of superchargers.

Low-displacment turbocharged or turbodiesel cars have been popular for a long time in Europe, but its finally starting to catch on here in the States. For street car use, you can have the power of a much larger displacement motor as well as the economy of a smaller motor when you're not 'on it'.

The series I race in: Grand-Am Continental Tire Sports Car Challenge (airs this Saturday at 1pm EST on SPEED Channel - we won that race) is a neat example of showroom stock racing with NA cars (Porsche 911, Cayman S, M3, Camaro, Mustang) vs. Supercharged V6 Audi S4, and turbocharged Subaru STI. In the lower ST class you have NA and FI: Cobalts, Civic Si, VW GTIs, BMW 330s, etc...

-Fuel economy, gas take size, pit stops, power, weight, are all factors that come into play. Another interesting series (but less cars) is the ALMS P2 class where you have V8 P2 cars and Turbocharged 4-cylinders in the same class, making about the same power. Either way you dont see too many superchargers in road racing.


Turbo Timers: Completely unnecessary for street use. Unless you drive illegally at high speeds and constant load all the way to your house and shut the car off immediately, you don't need a turbo timer on the street. Simply your normal drive from the freeway to your house like a regular civilian is more than enough to cool down the turbo. On a track, if you do a cooldown lap, you don't need a turbo timer either. Simply put, there are rare situations on street or track where you would actually even need a turbo timer.


Billy
 
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....10 years ago you couldn't find a single turbocharged car. Now look... they are everywhere. The one thing I don't miss with my turbos is that dam turbo timer.... car running for 3 minutes after every shut off for bearing cooling. That sucked.

I miss the turbo timer.

Shut off the car.
Lock the door.

And time when it turns off then "press" a "button" on my dick tracy watch or use the cell like a remote control and "turn" the car off while people are looking.

Makes for a great "latest and greatest" rumor at SEMA.... :biggrin:
 
I would imagine on a daily driven car with your foot kept out of the gas, the turbo car will return a few more MPG. I mean this is why all of a sudden so many manufacturers are making turbos. 10 years ago you couldn't find a single turbocharged car. Now look... they are everywhere. The one thing I don't miss with my turbos is that dam turbo timer.... car running for 3 minutes after every shut off for bearing cooling. That sucked.

I had the same question in the past: why don't you see turbo timers on BMW 335s? Well, there is no need for a turbo timer or extended idling on the 335. The stock turbos are water cooled and when the car is turned off, there is a faint buzz. That buzz is the water pump circulating coolant along with the turbos spinning slowly. Technology FTW.
 
I had the same question in the past: why don't you see turbo timers on BMW 335s? Well, there is no need for a turbo timer or extended idling on the 335. The stock turbos are water cooled and when the car is turned off, there is a faint buzz. That buzz is the water pump circulating coolant along with the turbos spinning slowly. Technology FTW.

My SVO's were super finicky about heat- in every aspect. That was a concern when I bought my Cayenne TT, I thought the same things about turbo timers, etc. My tech says he's not replaced a turbo in a Cayenne, that you can't kill one. We'll see...

OEM turbos are more livable now, that's for sure.

Which supercharger? Any one, just get one. :biggrin:
 
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Yes, some of the videos out there are quite bad, especially cars with GT42s and GT45s. But I would hardly say that about well-engineered cars like Kip/Driving Ambition's or FXMD's who'se turbo setups are designed for road racing and whose cars are set up properly and driven well.

Billy

That's why I qualified my statement by saying "any kind of turbo that'll produce good HP numbers". I suspect purpose built engines such as the one's you mentioned are not putting out super big HP numbers (mid 500s maybe?) using 3.5Ls or more. It's the guys with the 3.0L trying to put 550+ turbo hp down on the track that will be in for a wild ride.
 
That's why I qualified my statement by saying "any kind of turbo that'll produce good HP numbers". I suspect purpose built engines such as the one's you mentioned are not putting out super big HP numbers (mid 500s maybe?) using 3.5Ls or more. It's the guys with the 3.0L trying to put 550+ turbo hp down on the track that will be in for a wild ride.
Kip is making 550-650whp (I think) while FXMD is at 700whp+ on a 3.2L motor. Both handle and power out of corners very well due to good turbo sizing, testing, and perfecting as well as good car setups (and drivers).
 
My 1sts and 2nd gear is totally useless with 4 passengers, full luggage and full tank of gas on 275/35/18 in the back.

3rd gear with just me on a cold night is useless.

That's because the GTO's rear tires are wayyyyy too small, which is also I think one of the biggest flaws of the GTO. 275 wide tires are way too small for anything over 400 whp, but as I understand, you really can't get anything wider to fit on the stock body of the GTO. I don't know why they did that. The Z06 and Viper put 305-335 wide tires in the rear by comparison.

When I was pushing around 420 whp, my 275 wide tires were pretty much useless in the first 3 gears too. My 305 wide R compound tires hold 590 whp pretty well with minimal spin once warmed up properly.
 
That's because the GTO's rear tires are wayyyyy too small, which is also I think one of the biggest flaws of the GTO. 275 wide tires are way too small for anything over 400 whp, but as I understand, you really can't get anything wider to fit on the stock body of the GTO. I don't know why they did that. The Z06 and Viper put 305-335 wide tires in the rear by comparison.

When I was pushing around 420 whp, my 275 wide tires were pretty much useless in the first 3 gears too. My 305 wide R compound tires hold 590 whp pretty well with minimal spin once warmed up properly.

At 245/45/17 the size is OK for the stock HP with good tires.

They have wide body kits that allows wider tires in the front and back.

gtoramair604_01.jpg

C4T5sml.jpg
 
Kip is making 550-650whp (I think) while FXMD is at 700whp+ on a 3.2L motor. Both handle and power out of corners very well due to good turbo sizing, testing, and perfecting as well as good car setups (and drivers).

I think comparing true race cars with wider tracks, true slicks (also wider), sophistocated suspension and talanted drivers to a stock NSX that's only modification is a turbo putting out 600 plus HP (regardless of tune) is like apples and oranges. Those particular cars/drivers can probably handle the surge in power that's associated with the HP they're producing. I suspect if you take those same engines and drop one into a stock chassis with your average NSX tracker that they'd be quite intimidated by the powerband.

The one video I found regarding the FX Time Attach NSX, although brief, showed the driver doing some pretty radical steering adjustments on corner exit. Maybe that was not typical.

Heck, even my wife's stock turbo Saab has caught me offguard a few times on the track. It's got a pretty healthy surge when it spools up!
 
I think comparing true race cars with wider tracks, true slicks (also wider), sophistocated suspension and talanted drivers to a stock NSX that's only modification is a turbo putting out 600 plus HP (regardless of tune) is like apples and oranges. Those particular cars/drivers can probably handle the surge in power that's associated with the HP they're producing. I suspect if you take those same engines and drop one into a stock chassis with your average NSX tracker that they'd be quite intimidated by the powerband.

The one video I found regarding the FX Time Attach NSX, although brief, showed the driver doing some pretty radical steering adjustments on corner exit. Maybe that was not typical.

Heck, even my wife's stock turbo Saab has caught me offguard a few times on the track. It's got a pretty healthy surge when it spools up!
Depends on which video you watched. If you watch all of them in chronilogical order you can see the car becomes easier to drive and well sorted out. The first videos of its existence the car was all over the place - part of developing a car with a wider stance, etc...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k55D-OO7L0E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W07_Rg3E4OQ

The silver FX500 had 600whp and 235/275 setup under stock fenders and was fine on R-compound tires.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5UTrUxBOfU
 
Don't even get me started on the turbo lag on my F-250. The kenne bell SC on our yukon is much better but the response from my 3.6l stroker is even better than that. How's that for comparing apples to oranges. ;)

When I drove with van Overbeek (name drop), he talked about how he had to keep one foot on the brake and one on the gas to keep the turbo at full boil (on a 911 racer). I suspect that's the case with most professional drivers.
 
I think comparing true race cars with wider tracks, true slicks (also wider), sophistocated suspension and talanted drivers to a stock NSX that's only modification is a turbo putting out 600 plus HP (regardless of tune) is like apples and oranges. Those particular cars/drivers can probably handle the surge in power that's associated with the HP they're producing. I suspect if you take those same engines and drop one into a stock chassis with your average NSX tracker that they'd be quite intimidated by the powerband.

I don't think that's the case. I'm not a race car driver (or even close) and I built my car kind of backwards. I put in massive power first then upgraded the necessary components to handle the power. I had about 500 whp but skinny 275 street tires, Type-S (practically stock) suspension, no brake upgrade and nary any proper modifications. At first it was kind of scary, everything broke loose at the drop of a hat and the surge in power was definitely overwhelming. But you really get acclimated to it very quickly and the surge became tame and predictable. It’s why they call it the speed crack pipe because no matter how much power you get, you just get acclimated to it. Now that I’m almost at 600 whp but more importantly upgraded super wide/sticky tires, suspension, etc. had it specially tuned by Billy and now it’s so tame and controlled, I kid you not, it feels slow. You can stab the gas, go to full boost and take your hands off of the steering wheel, it’s that balanced. It’s very underwhelming (at least for me) because you just get so used to the power. And I'm just an average "Joe", I thnk this would apply to just about anyone you put behind the wheel. It will seem scary at first but after a few weeks with the car, you'd just get used to it and it wouldn't seem all that fast anymore.
 
I don't think that's the case. I'm not a race car driver (or even close) and I built my car kind of backwards. I put in massive power first then upgraded the necessary components to handle the power. I had about 500 whp but skinny 275 street tires, Type-S (practically stock) suspension, no brake upgrade and nary any proper modifications. At first it was kind of scary, everything broke loose at the drop of a hat and the surge in power was definitely overwhelming. But you really get acclimated to it very quickly and the surge became tame and predictable. It’s why they call it the speed crack pipe because no matter how much power you get, you just get acclimated to it. Now that I’m almost at 600 whp but more importantly upgraded super wide/sticky tires, suspension, etc. had it specially tuned by Billy and now it’s so tame and controlled, I kid you not, it feels slow. You can stab the gas, go to full boost and take your hands off of the steering wheel, it’s that balanced. It’s very underwhelming (at least for me) because you just get so used to the power. And I'm just an average "Joe", I thnk this would apply to just about anyone you put behind the wheel. It will seem scary at first but after a few weeks with the car, you'd just get used to it and it wouldn't seem all that fast anymore.
If you want it to be scary again, break traction at throttle dip-in, and feel like 900hp, I can change your setup for ya and make it back to 'overwhelming' ;) That is if you're too bored with your current setup that is suppose to make the most grip, be compliant, predictable, and easy to drive. ...Just let me know.


Billy
 
Depends on which video you watched. If you watch all of them in chronilogical order you can see the car becomes easier to drive and well sorted out. The first videos of its existence the car was all over the place - part of developing a car with a wider stance, etc...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k55D-OO7L0E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W07_Rg3E4OQ

The silver FX500 had 600whp and 235/275 setup under stock fenders and was fine on R-compound tires.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5UTrUxBOfU

Well, without telemetry who knows how low they turned the boost knob to keep things under control?
 
If you want it to be scary again, break traction at throttle dip-in, and feel like 900hp, I can change your setup for ya and make it back to 'overwhelming' ;) That is if you're too bored with your current setup that is suppose to make the most grip, be compliant, predictable, and easy to drive. ...Just let me know.


Billy


Haha, if I needed the feeling of speed again, I could always take the windshield out. :tongue: I like the car just the way it is now. :biggrin:
 
I think your car is much faster now than it ever was Bryan. The problem is you are looking for the sensation of speed i.e. tires breaking loose early, smaller turbos=faster spoolup as well. Your new setup and new turbo is just right and much more driveable. From what I understand the reason your car lost traction had nothing to do with power but more to do with the bad suspension setup. As I understand it that was fixed and now the car hooks up a hell of a lot better.

I also wouldn't say that you are used to the 600whp speed as much as you probably don't drive it at WOT enough to get the most out of the car. Since the power is at the top of the curve now you have to redline it to get that speed. As we saw on that one street we were driving on that felt pretty G damn fast. The funnier part is when you rode in my car and you thought my car felt fast. My car is no way as scary as your "time machine" I think you need to drive it more at fast speeds. The problem with that is where are you going to do that?

My cars aren't that fast but I still don't drive them that hard 90% of the time now since I am avoiding getting into trouble. So I am not saying it is just you. I don't drive my car like that either. It is hard when you don't drive it very often.
 
Mark911,

It is great to see back on prime again.

Danny

Thanks Danny,

Since my car blew about three years ago I just kinda lost interest. Got back into MX and SCORE offroad racing. I just recently got tired of looking at my car sitting in the garage on jacks. I've got all the block work and engine parts to support 700 plus hp. So I'm slowly getting my engine back together. That's tough for me as everything has to be perfect and it takes lots of time to get the details right.

I want to end up with at least 650 rwhp so I'm lurking around the FI forum to see what's the hot setup these days. I'm working with Eaton to see if one of their new 6th Generation SCers will get me there. I like the simplisity of SCers but the packaging is difficult and weight distribution not ideal. If not, I'll probably go twin turbo. But nothing like anything seen to date.

Mark

Maybe by summer . . . . .
 
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