Will the next NSX be a plug-in?

[TURBO2GO]

He anyone heard any info on this? Will the car be able to be plugged in to charge the batteries to 100% and will it have any sort of drive in some sort of Eco mode with the motors only?

I know we've talked of everything else but no one has really touched on this.

 

[N Spec]

If Honda is gauging success from their other products, I think they should know not to make it a plug in hybrid. Look at the 2014 Accord Hybrid for example. Read more about the difference between the conventional versus plug-in:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1308_2014_honda_accord_hybrid_japan_first_drive/

-The new Hybrid Accord (both plugin and conventional) is beating out the competitors in pretty much every way apparently

-50+ mpg is amazing for a car sized like the Accord and they still managed a 0-60 in 7.5 seconds! That should be 15 second 1/4 mile territory. Not bad for a ~200 combined hp hybrid...

-The plugin Accord weighed 250 lbs more than the conventional hybrid and only allowed for about 13 miles of pure e-drive. It also got 3-4 mpg less across the board while costing nearly twice as much

-The article cites they drove 200 miles in city streets of Japan and averaged 59 mpg in real world testing!

-In those 200 miles, 1/3 of the time was spent on e-drive. Let's do the math here: If they average say 35 mph in the ~6 hours it took them to drive 200 miles, that means that the charging system was able to recharge the batteries to power the emotors about 10-11 miles each hour. That's not bad at all. This gives an idea of what the emotors on the NSX can do and how long it'll take to constantly charge them.

Lastly, I don't think Honda will go plugin with the NSX because the extra battery weight is too much, more expensive and not very efficient based on the Accord Hybrid's results.

 

[TURBO2GO]

So are you saying you think the batteries are less capacity than to allow the car to actually be driven in an Eco electric mode at all? These are fairly powerful motors seems like the would need a fair amount of power no matter what. And what I am saying is the motors are there, the batteries are there, the light weight is there, wouldn't it be easy or advantageous to charge the batteries externally to have full power available? Seems logical to let an owner just charge the batteries and have more than just a performance mode but also an Eco mode... Since all the gear seems to be there anyway

 

[N Spec]

It seems that way and I agree ideally, it would be nice to cover all bases and offer that extra convenience/option, but in the case of the Plug-in Accord versus conventional Hybrid is proving to that the plug-in direction is not efficient. The extra 200-300 lbs and cost is not worth the extra 10+ miles of pure edrive. I'd rather have 1 mile every 10 minutes of edrive at this moment in technology because Battery tech is still not quite to the point of be very efficient.

Who knows what Honda will do though? If they can offer the plug-in battery and still keep the NSX's weight around 3400lbs, then I wouldn't complain too much.

 

[TURBO2GO]

I don't understand why you are saying keep the weight down. You realize there are already batteries there, right? Also the accord is a bad example. There was already a conventional accord and the hybrid was designed to increase economy. There is no conventional NSX and it is not geared towards increasing economy over a standard model. The current batteries must be charged. That's either by regen, which comes at the expense of gasoline, or not at all. Seems the car could be more efficient if an altnative method of recharging the batteries was through a power cord.

 

[IRVINFLA]

?? for Klaus at NSXPO !

 

[TURBO2GO]

?? for Klaus at NSXPO !

Yes, please someone pose this. I would really like to know. some companies like BMW are making a big deal with the i8. If the NSX can also cover this Eco aspect it would be great. I'd buy one no matter what if I like the car. But if the batteries are there, the motors are there, and the drive capability is there which it clearly seems to be with 100+ electric HP, can this car also become very economical with the addition of a power cord. Even if used for performance only, you can ensure you have full battery strength before taking it out.

 

[N Spec]

I don't understand why you are saying keep the weight down. You realize there are already batteries there, right? Also the accord is a bad example. There was already a conventional accord and the hybrid was designed to increase economy. There is no conventional NSX and it is not geared towards increasing economy over a standard model. The current batteries must be charged. That's either by regen, which comes at the expense of gasoline, or not at all. Seems the car could be more efficient if an altnative method of recharging the batteries was through a power cord.

I think you are misunderstanding what I was saying. The Accord has 2 versions of the hybrid. It of course has the conventional 2.4 gasoline, then the 2.0 Hybrid that is Plug-in and the conventional 2.0 Hybrid that is not plug-in. The newest one which is the non plug-in hybrid is getting a lot of praise because it is superior to the plug-in version.

4 cylinder Accord weight: ~3,300 lbs 7.5 0-60 time
Non-plugin Hybrid weight: ~3,550 lbs 7.5 0-60 time
Plug-in Hybrid weight: ~3,800 lbs 7.7 0-60 time

4 cylinder Accord mpg: 27 city / 36 hwy
Non-plugin Hybrid mpg: 49 city / 45 hwy (This is the model MT got 59 mpg in Japan city driving)
Plug-in Hybrid mpg: 47 city / 46 hwy

4 cylinder Accord EX-L MSRP: $27,900
Non-plugin Hybrid MSRP: $27,xxx PROJECTED PRICING to compete with other competitors like Ford and Toyota that are in the $28K price range
Plug-in Hybrid MSRP: $39,780

Again, you see the extra batteries for a plug-in is not efficient as you can see as the extra weight to carry the vehicle 15 miles max on a 3 hour charge at home is not worth it on the long run IMO. So, is the extra 200-300 lbs of battery for a plug-in worth it for the NSX, just to say you can drive 15 miles on all electric?

 

[TURBO2GO]

I see you are saying the extra energy needed to drive electric only needs more batteries and more weight. OK... I get that. But what about NO drive with the batteries? The car does still have batteries that need a charge. What about the option of charging those instead of leaving it for the engine to do (regen still comes at the cost of the gas motor). Forget electric if that's too unpractical what about just charging for max power and efficiency at home? Doesn't that make sense? And also I'm guessing if there ever was complete engine failure, some limp movement would be better than nothing like leaving you stranded without gas when there is a charge and motors that can actually move the car even if very limited.

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Just seems like some way to bring electricity into a car that has electric motors would be a nice option.

 

[bngl3rt]

One as-yet unmentioned upside to being a plug-in: parking. There are so many EV-only parking spaces popping around where I live, and McLaren P1/Porsche 918 owners will be able to park in these spots as their cars are technically plug-ins (even though both cars have less than 20 miles of e-mode range)

To take it outside the US for a sec, some cities in Europe are considering only allowing electric cars into their city centers in the future because of emissions. So having a pure electric mode available (and being able to plug in to replenish its range) is a desirable feature for the european market.

 

[N Spec]

I see you are saying the extra energy needed to drive electric only needs more batteries and more weight. OK... I get that. But what about NO drive with the batteries? The car does still have batteries that need a charge. What about the option of charging those instead of leaving it for the engine to do (regen still comes at the cost of the gas motor). Forget electric if that's too unpractical what about just charging for max power and efficiency at home? Doesn't that make sense? And also I'm guessing if there ever was complete engine failure, some limp movement would be better than nothing like leaving you stranded without gas when there is a charge and motors that can actually move the car even if very limited.

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Just seems like some way to bring electricity into a car that has electric motors would be a nice option.

I think you ask a good question that could be addressed to all hybrids and not just the NSX, but the plug-in components may be a bit more complex (costly) and perhaps still some extra weight themselves (I'm not an expert so I am only guessing). The other issue is that when you buy a plug-in hybrid, it becomes a very specialized process where your home may require servicing also to support proper charging of your plug-in, as it's not as simple as plugging in your car unfortunately.

With that thought though, I think that the conventional hybrid batteries with a decent charge should be able to drive the car 1-3 miles off a highway to an exit or to a service station in the event of primary motor failure. I'm not really sure if other conventional hybrids already offer this option. IF they do not, then the reason may obviously be because it's too complicated with current design, but I agree it certainly would be a very good back-up option to have.

 

[JD Cross]

My understanding is the battery driving the electric motors is a 200-300 volt battery and is nickel-metal or lithium-ion.
As the electric motors are the electric generators when recovering energy I presume they charge at 200-300 volts as well.

Apparently these batteries are not like 12V conventional batteries used to start the internal combustion engine and run the 12V accessories.

I believe all hybrid's can also use the gas engine alternator to make electricity for the electric motors even though it is not efficient.
That suggests there must be some way the hybrid converts the 12 V alternator current to higher voltage for the driving battery.
If so then technically you should be able to put a charger on the 12V conventional battery and the cars innards should be able to send that to the main driving battery no?

 

[Elistan]

I think ultimately it'll depend on the capacity of the battery Honda puts in. 20 kWh like the Fit EV? 6.7 kWh like the Accord Plug-In? (Honda doesn't list capacity of the Civic Hybrid's battery, but I think it's between 1 and 2 kWh.)

I'd just like to know how the system is supposed to function during a track day. Will it run out of juice by the second session? Is the regenerative braking enough to provide power for a full day of fun? (In other words, will they tune the output of the motors to only match what can be put back via KERS plus generator effect from engine?)

 

[N Spec]

These are all very good questions and Honda should make it a point to educate people on how these things work, *without giving away trade secrets of course. Apparently the new 2014 Accord utilizes a two motor system with one emotor making ~167 hp in the front of the car for traction and the other in the rear that is apparently CHARGING the battery? I've tried finding more info on this, but I was not successful because it's a new system. Or perhaps Motor Trend has described the process inaccurately?

Either way, when the motor is running or even moving the car, the batteries are still being charged unless the batteries are at full capacity.

I personally think Honda should choose the minimal size/capacity that is enough to meet certain track targets, thus keeping curb weight lower and all other things simplified.

 

[JD Cross]

These are all very good questions and Honda should make it a point to educate people on how these things work, *without giving away trade secrets of course. Apparently the new 2014 Accord utilizes a two motor system with one emotor making ~167 hp in the front of the car for traction and the other in the rear that is apparently CHARGING the battery.

Now that is a clever approach.
If the second electric motor is used as an electric generator when needed, at presumably the same voltage as the traction motor, that deals with charging issues.
I wonder if the polarity of the second motor can be reversed so it can also be a drive motor when the batteries are charged?

We would have a situation where if the batteries are charged then both motors can be driving motors.
If the braking regeneration is not enough and the driving battery is needing recharge then the second motor becomes a generator making up the shortfall.

So with full batteries you would get max hp from the internal combustion plus two electric driving motors.
If the driving battery needs charging HP would be reduced then by the loss of hp from the second motor plus parasitic loss of power used to turn the second motor as a generator.
However it would mean constant regeneration is available as long as the car is moving and the only change would be the different HP levels available.

If this is what the NSX will have, then for 90 % of normal driving a full battery should always be on tap for full boost.
On track it would depend on how quickly the driving battery could be refilled from braking regeneration plus the second motor generation to give you full power when you want it.

This could be really something.

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Thinking a bit more about the track situation.
I don't track my NSX so perhaps those who do could chime in about this.

In F1 I've heard that on most tracks the F1 cars use WOT about half the time.
That suggests the other half is either off full throttle or braking.
Under off full throttle the second electric motor could be full time generating as full power is not needed and the internal combustion engine power is enough.
Under braking all electric motors would be generators providing even more charge.
If switching the electric motors between charging and making HP is seamless then does it sound reasonable that the car would always have WOT full boost available for acceleration?

If this is the case, then perhaps the HP of the internal combustion engine is not as important as we have come to historically expect.
It could be more important that the total power available is the important issue not where it comes from.
In this case the internal combustion engine HP would be secondary to the total HP available under each condition of braking, slowing down, or accelerating.

What do track day drivers think?

 

[Midnight_Raven]

If you look at this video you can see the NSX has an ECO mode where it only runs on the electric motors. Go to about 1:40 second mark in the video you'll see the car is in eco mode.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/B0lIuS-P2a4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[TURBO2GO]

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It looks like it is actually capable of full electric drive.

 

[JD Cross]

Maybe this will be the system in the new NSX.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/...details-on-yaris-hybrid-r-concepts-powertrain

 

[TURBO2GO]

A little off topic but look at what this SLS does with the electric motors including "negative torque". This will give you some great insight into torque vectoring. Negative torque is fascinating.... this is a great video:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/IElqf-FCMs8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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If you don't have time just go to 10 minutes in and listen to the engineer

 

[N Spec]

If you look at this video you can see the NSX has an ECO mode where it only runs on the electric motors. Go to about 1:40 second mark in the video you'll see the car is in eco mode.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/B0lIuS-P2a4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I think all modern hybrids are capable of riding on electric motors only for short periods of low speeds. That is the idea of hybrids, where city driving uses electric motors and highway is all gasoline powered. The motors cannot be sustained for super long periods or high speeds and so the motor will switch on automatically when battery charge is low or if you require more speed/power. This is what is shown in the video, where you have a mild acceleration that does not require a lot of power to cruise and then you apply WOT and the primary engine kicks in.

A little off topic but look at what this SLS does with the electric motors including "negative torque". This will give you some great insight into torque vectoring. Negative torque is fascinating.... this is a great video:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/IElqf-FCMs8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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If you don't have time just go to 10 minutes in and listen to the engineer

That was a cool video, thanks for sharing. It basically cleared my question about brake regen used along with torque vectoring. Apparently, the brake engagement is not as fast as controlling the electric motors so they could not use it for vectoring.

13,000 rpm electric motors are impressive, as is the 700 hp power output. Although, at over 1,100 lbs of batteries to facilitate a 125 mile range, this is something that today's tech cannot overcome quite yet... It shows in the price tag and curb weight with the mildly fast 0-60. I think in another 20 years, maybe 10, battery technology will be much more efficient and affordable, and people will giggle at the thought of the weak range they can provide right now. Kudos to those who take the plunge now and support that direction.

 

[ky650]

Interesting comment about brake engagement not being fast enough for vectoring, isn't that how Porsche is doing it at the moment since they don't have electric motors? Wouldn't it also be less than ideal in the NSX where the front 2 wheels can be controlled with the precision they speak of with the electric motors but the rear 2 wheels couldnt?

 

[Elistan]

Some info on the three sportier driving modes of the Porsche 918:

Sporty and dynamic: 'Sport Hybrid'

If more dynamic performance is required, the power units in the 918 Spyder switch over to 'Sport Hybrid' mode. The combustion engine now operates continuously, representing the main propulsive force. The electric motors are activated to support acceleration through the electric boost function, or at points when the operating point of the combustion engine can be optimised for greater efficiency. This mode focuses on performance and a sporty driving experience at top speeds.

For fast laps: 'Race Hybrid'

'Race Hybrid' is the mode for maximum performance combined with an especially sporting driving experience. The combustion engine is chiefly used under high load, and charges the battery whenever the driver does not require maximum power. In this mode, the electric motors also provide additional support in the form of boosting. The gearshift programme of the Porsche Doppelkupplung (PDK) is also designed for even sportier driving. The electric motors are used up to the maximum power output limit to deliver the best possible performance for the race track. The battery charging condition is not kept constant and instead fluctuates over the entire charge range. In contrast to 'Sport Hybrid' mode, the electric motors run at their maximum power output limit for a short period for enhanced boost performance. This increased output is balanced out by the fact that the combustion engine charges the battery more intensively. The electric power boost is thus always available to the driver even for several very fast laps.

For pole position: 'Hot Lap'

The 'Hot Lap' button in the centre of the map switch releases the final reserves of the 918 Spyder and can only be activated in 'Race Hybrid' mode. Similar to a motor sports qualification mode, 'Race Hybrid' pushes the traction battery to its maximum power output limits for a few fast laps. This mode uses all of the available energy in the battery.

Emphasis mine on the "several." Seems like with the 918 if you want full power of the combined ICE + electric, you'll eventually run out of battery charge and will have to content yourself with internal combustion only after an unknown but finite number of laps. It'll be interesting to see the laptime differences thereof.

Similar to the Accord, it has a battery capacity of 6.8 kWh.

 

[Caustic]

Some info on the three sportier driving modes of the Porsche 918:



Emphasis mine on the "several." Seems like with the 918 if you want full power of the combined ICE + electric, you'll eventually run out of battery charge and will have to content yourself with internal combustion only after an unknown but finite number of laps. It'll be interesting to see the laptime differences thereof.

Similar to the Accord, it has a battery capacity of 6.8 kWh.

This is the concern I have with NSX 2.0.

 

[N Spec]

Sort of on topic while also off topic. Porsche 918 Spyder sets new Nurburgring record showcasing the hybrid prowess below 7 minutes:

http://www.worldcarfans.com/113091062745/porsche-918-spyder-rocks-the-nurburgring-in-657---lap

133 hp/liter all-motor is the new benchmark. This is definitely a completely new league of performance with the induction of hybrid hyper cars. I wonder what Ferrari, McLaren, Nissan AND Honda will have to say about that.

 

[TURBO2GO]

KERS is the new NOS. power on demand and with a limited supply. Use wisely. Adds a whole new dimension to racing.

I actually find all this electric stuff pretty fascinating and exciting. Imagine instead of old school VTEC having a button that delivers an electrical charge and an extra 100 HP jolt with a meter that shows depletion. Now you have to incorporate that technique and where to use it on the track to improve your lap times. Maybe you won't have a stick shift but now you have to calculate and be engaged with the car as to where to dump power and where to conserve.

It's pretty cool if you ask me.